Tottenham

[jonny72]

Would this boot camp have big walls to stop them getting out? And bars on the room doors for the same reasons? And guards to make sure they stay in line and don't escape? And make them do hard labour in the day by chaining them together and giving them a pick axe to break up big blocks of brick.

I think unless there is a prison-like infrastructure then they just wouldn't stay there. Juvenile prisons are fine by me.

Yes, except for the hard labour bit. I wouldn't call them guards and I wouldn't call it a prison either, though I'd go with having the military run it or at least run it along military lines.

You'd start by restricting their freedom and privileges, then if they behave they start getting them back. That way it should get the message across that if you play by the rules good things happen and if you don't then bad things happen.

[joteddyred]

Nope,it is down to the breakdown of family/school and general discipline when young in my opinion.
All british boys/men should do a years service in the forces when they are young to help with discipline.
You cannot blame governments and the such for this...it is down to lack of respect and no discipline.

The benefits culture that has been created (by Blair) hasn't helped the situation though.  There are people who see no issue with having a ridiculous number of children they can't personally support, because they are able to claim vast sums of money in benefits to do it for them. The older kids more often than not will be left to roam the estates, while the mother attends to the latest addition.  Unfortunately this way of living then gets passed down and only in rare cases will the kids not follow suit.

You've only got to look at the mother of 10 who was in the paper this week demanding additional support on top of the £30,000 a year she gets in various forms of benefit.  She made a choice to continually breed children knowing she was unable to support them some.  I take exception to paying tax and NI on the wages I work hard for to support my own family being used to help people like this.

Benefits should be there for those that require them through a situation change they had no control on, not for those who create the situation themselves.

[tans]

Bang on

[chalkies_shorts]

The benefits culture has been there for years. The Tories switched people from unemployment on to disability so as they could get unemployment rates down. These people hit the gravy train and haven't stopped riding it.

[LucienSanchez]

The interesting thing is the amount of rioters in court who actually have jobs (teaching assistants, care workers)... it wasn't solely those with nothing who decided to take this action. Makes it harder to understand the reasons and causes.

[Arriba]

Not forgetting wrecking communities,public services and jobs with privatisation of everything and selling whatever they could.
Some towns have never recovered

[jonny72]

Not forgetting wrecking communities,public services and jobs with privatisation of everything and selling whatever they could.
Some towns have never recovered

You've just described the last Labour government. When did you switch to the Tories?

[reeves4england]

I think talking about this as a problem with the underclass is a bit narrow-minded. Yes, the riots were largely conducted by poorly educated people from some of Britain's more deprived areas, but the amoral 'me-first' culture extends much further. I'm hardly the first to point to tax dodging and expenses swindling carried out by some of our country's well-educated and successful 'elite', who have built careers upon the high-quality education they so gladly received yet spat in the face of the general public once it got them into a position they could use for their own gain.

I'm not saying anybody in this thread is wrong... I just think we need to broaden the lens and realise that the educated, the rich and the powerful are not immune to the cultural problems in our society, they just exhibit them in different ways.

[joteddyred]

I think talking about this as a problem with the underclass is a bit narrow-minded. Yes, the riots were largely conducted by poorly educated people from some of Britain's more deprived areas, but the amoral 'me-first' culture extends much further. I'm hardly the first to point to tax dodging and expenses swindling carried out by some of our country's well-educated and successful 'elite', who have built careers upon the high-quality education they so gladly received yet spat in the face of the general public once it got them into a position they could use for their own gain.

I'm not saying anybody in this thread is wrong... I just think we need to broaden the lens and realise that the educated, the rich and the powerful are not immune to the cultural problems in our society, they just exhibit them in different ways.

Totally agree, people from all backgrounds and walks of life were involved. I took this slightly off topic by raising the benefits issue. The article about the woman I mentioned in my post has really pissed me off

[joteddyred]

The benefits culture has been there for years. The Tories switched people from unemployment on to disability so as they could get unemployment rates down. These people hit the gravy train and haven't stopped riding it.

I don't disagree with you CS, but the current working tax/child tax credit system  was implemented by Labour.  Imo it's an open invite for the workshy to breed kids.  The more they have, the more money they get.

[leefer]

It was the blame being put on Thatcher I was disagreeing with.

I'd totally blame the government for this. Parents and teachers aren't allowed to discipline children any more, if they do they'll end up being arrested or sacked or sued. Don't see how you can blame them (parents and teachers) when their hands are pretty much tied - if the kid says fuck you then what are they supposed to do?

I don't see military service being the answer as the damage is often done well before that. My solution would be military style boot camps which kids get sent to if their parents and teachers can't control them, or if they break the law. Take them away from their mates, mobile phones, video games, internet, booze and so on and they'd get the message pretty quick.

A massive rethink is needed on the whole criminal system as well. As soon as someone gets an adult criminal record they're fucked and the chances of them getting out of the criminal life style are drastically reduced. Far too many end up in prison when there are better options such as curfews, tagging and various other restrictions that can be placed on them.

Take those arrested during the riots for the more minor offences (like grabbing something from a shop that had already been broken in to). Give them a a choice - a criminal record and some time in prison, or 1000 hours community service over the next 5 years. Plenty of options available.

Dont agree...you discipline your kids as you see fit...who takes notice of the government when bringing up kids.
Good teachers should be able to teach and discipline without clouting or shouting or using a cane.
Fact is parents are to blame for our troubles with the youngsters...not our governments,you can blame the government for lots of things but not how you teach your kids respect.
Fact is that the first person charged with rioting and stealing was a teaching mentor from Croydon,sums things up nicely really.
Sentencing harsher isn't the answer...stopping them thinking/doing the crime in the first place is....and that lesson is taught at home or should be.

[Batch]

Good teachers should be able to teach and discipline without clouting or shouting or using a cane.

Seriously difficult in the less desirable schools (largely inner city). It doesn't matter how good you are, if a child wants to be disruptive (like chucking chairs around the room, or worse) they will be. The problem is with the parents who usually don't give a toss.

[Arriba]

Although we can argue about why we have an underclass and the cause of it that doesn't stop the problem.
Something has to be done about the Jeremy Kyle generation. The only way i can see an end to it is by limiting people breeding. That won't happen as the bleeding heart brigade will scream about human rights etc.

[Gnasher]

Seriously difficult in the less desirable schools (largely inner city). It doesn't matter how good you are, if a child wants to be disruptive (like chucking chairs around the room, or worse) they will be. The problem is with the parents who usually don't give a toss.

I agree with you Batch, it's the parents. It's easy to chuck your kids out the door and not care what they're doing. It's much harder to say no if you don't want them to go somewhere or with certain individuals. We get stress and abuse from our eldest for saying no (mean, horrible parents!), but at least she does what she's told. I don't think the parents of the vandals have any control over/respect from their children.

[Nomoreheroes]

I was out of the country so missed much of what went on. But, from what I saw, I would like to see:

1. Equal punishments (jail time) given to parents as well as the offspring who were involved.
2. The chap who robbed the injured foreign student to be named and shamed and meet up with someone a lot tougher than me before being handed over to the police for charging.
3. Compulsory conscription and national service for offenders. Service to then be given in the Engineers or something similar where they would be forced to do work on the Country's national infrastructure.