Bit of a hoo-haa down in london

[pauld]

Paul - I personally think if you want to go and enjoy Uni/get a degree then as an individual you should pay for that privilege - I know I am going to be shot down in flames a little for that but I honestly believe that...

All this talk about "helping the country" - "the country benefits" is true to a degree - but lets be honest the vast majority of people are doing it to better their individual chances of more money over their career....

In that respect it seems right and proper to contribute towards that

It also seems unfair to me that people leaving school and getting jobs (builders, plumbers etc) should be funding someone who wants to spend another 3 years studying - I guess that's the "tory" in me coming out....

As for your comments on midwives etc... - I just looked it up.  A midwife in a UK hospital emplyed by the NHS has a salary band of between £25,500 and £34,000 !!

That doesn't seem like peanuts to me !

£25-34k may not be peanuts but it's hardly raking it in, is it? Bearing in mind that's £34k top whack (ie after 20 years or whatever). I was just trying to provide some counter to the idea that everyone going to uni would be automatically earning shitloads after a few years of getting their degrees and that it was solely to their own benefit. Quite a lot don't and they're in occupations we need people to want to work in, more as a vocation than because they're going to get paid shitloads because they're not.

[pauld]

Ever get the feeling that this thread is going round in spectacular circles?

Don't they all?

[donkey]

I'm sorry if I'm being overly simplistic but aren't we in a recession? and haven't we got a huge fucking deficit? So doesn't that mean the Country's basically skint?

People don't want to pay more taxes, so where is all the money going to come from to continue the level of public spending we have seen over the last 10 years? There are cuts going on everywhere, not just in education.

Make those rich cunts at the top pay the tax they should pay, and not avoid it through a series of 'interesting' schemes and declarations.  The fucking MPs can start too.  Then the government can come to rest of us, those that pay our taxes as we should and ask us for more.

[herthab]

Make those rich cunts at the top pay the tax they should pay, and not avoid it through a series of 'interesting' schemes and declarations.  The fucking MPs can start too.  Then the government can come to rest of us, those that pay our taxes as we should and ask us for more.

Well now you're just being silly. (As if those at the top would ever pay what they should!)

[Sippo]

Get the watercannon on the rich aswell.

[Nemo]

I'm sorry if I'm being overly simplistic but aren't we in a recession? and haven't we got a huge fucking deficit? So doesn't that mean the Country's basically skint?

People don't want to pay more taxes, so where is all the money going to come from to continue the level of public spending we have seen over the last 10 years? There are cuts going on everywhere, not just in education.

We are in a recession, correct. However, if you think about the tuition fee changes (not the proposals as a whole, which I can't honestly say I'd know enough about to judge) then it becomes clear that in the short term this will cost the country more- certainly for 5-6 years.

The system will obviously involve much higher loans, which the Government pays, but also involves increased bursaries for the poorest. So the Government has more going out up front, which will no doubt be made up by the increased repayments from these students but for obvious reasons, the incoming students taking these are not going to earning over the 21k limit for at least 4 years, probably closer to 6 on average I'd suspect.

Sure, it'll probably cost the country less eventually, but this cannot be sold as a short term measure to protect against the recession.

[Bogus Dave]

I'd suggest it is a short term measure in terms of producing future minds.

[sheepshagger]

£25-34k may not be peanuts but it's hardly raking it in, is it? Bearing in mind that's £34k top whack (ie after 20 years or whatever). I was just trying to provide some counter to the idea that everyone going to uni would be automatically earning shitloads after a few years of getting their degrees and that it was solely to their own benefit. Quite a lot don't and they're in occupations we need people to want to work in, more as a vocation than because they're going to get paid shitloads because they're not.

Trouble is Paul that is not the whole story.  A Senior Midwife will earn up to £40k, and if they work their way to consultant midwife (unlikely perhaps ??) then they can earn up to £67k

I would suggest that is exactly why people would want to go to Uni - to advance themselves and to eventually earn more.

Maybe I'm wrong but we are in the shit and there is nothing we can do about it apart from all tightening our belts - this includes contributing more if necessary.......

[leefer]

£25-34k may not be peanuts but it's hardly raking it in, is it? Bearing in mind that's £34k top whack (ie after 20 years or whatever). I was just trying to provide some counter to the idea that everyone going to uni would be automatically earning shitloads after a few years of getting their degrees and that it was solely to their own benefit. Quite a lot don't and they're in occupations we need people to want to work in, more as a vocation than because they're going to get paid shitloads because they're not.

If you dont think you can earn a good...better wage than normal...dont go to University...simple solution.
If you think you can or will earn a better than average wage...at least be prepared to pay for the training/tuition that will help you earn it..like all the lower earners who have to dig deep and dont get any help...you know Plumbers,Brickies.Scaffolders Taxi drivers etc....in the words of a furry rodent...SIMPLES!

[Rich Pullen]

Everything you said leefer is null and void because you ended your statement with 'SIMPLES'.

[url width=552 height=384]http://www.l402audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/shame-on-you.jpg[/url]

[leefer]

Everything you said leefer is null and void because you ended your statement with 'SIMPLES'.

[url width=552 height=384]http://www.l402audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/shame-on-you.jpg[/url]

Fair enough ....though i strongly disagree that the £30 EMA has been taken away from family's over £21,000......one parent earning family's on this or slightly more will be hard hit.

[pauld]

If you dont think you can earn a good...better wage than normal...dont go to University...simple solution.

That was kind of the point I was making actually. That many people will do precisely this. And we kind of need them to become teachers, nurses (not midwives obviously as it turns out they're proper fat cats ) etc.

[leefer]

That was kind of the point I was making actually. That many people will do precisely this. And we kind of need them to become teachers, nurses (not midwives obviously as it turns out they're proper fat cats ) etc.

To be honest Paul its blatantly obvious that the majority of the protesting students have been caught up with idiots who have other agenda's.
Why not protest outside the lib dems offices...it was them who stirred all this up

[sheepshagger]

Ha ha - thing is Paul that Nurses are basically on the same pay grades as Midwives - so they are fat cats too

Teachers pay starts at £21k and rises up to £32k - and this is without becoming head, deputy, head of house etc......

All in all for working half a year it seems bloody loads

Pay and stop moaning !!

[Simon Pieman]

The Government should be chuffed I did go - because I'm paying them a guaranteed few grand extra a year in tax, NI contributions and of course student loan repayments. In ten years time I would have paid what I loaned back at least four fold. Over my lifetime the extras they'll deduct from my salary will be massive and far more useful than pumping what I loaned into the public sector as a one off cost.

As others have said though, the amount of people who do does not lend itself to excellence and therein lies the problem. I'm convinced there is more to this than just grabbing short-term money, the Tories are probably trying to discourage people from going without a clearer career path who will still weigh up the costs and land in favour of going to get a better paid job.