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Author Topic: Judgement Day  (Read 29336 times)
sheepshagger
Suburban Capitalist........

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« Reply #225 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 08:45:31 »

Ironside - no-one actually cares what you think - Ben was merely proving you wrong yet again with solid examples of substance from the Blair government....

Whether you agree with any of them is completely irrelevant.....
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pauld
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« Reply #226 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:07:45 »

FAir point well made, not that I was banging on about his race anyway (See other peoples posts)
I know you weren't but you accused Sheepshagger of confusing facts with hype so thought I'd redress the balance

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I'm more concerned with his policies, or lack thereof.  The comparisons with Blair are rather interesting in my opinion. Blair came along promising the earth but has actually delivered nothing of any substance.
The comparisons with Blair are rather facile actually. I can see the appeal of the comparison in that both came in on a tide of feel-good and a sense of a fresh start but that's about it.
* Blair came in at a time of economic prosperity (and arguably built on it) - Barack is facing possibly the biggest global bust we've ever seen
* Blair came in at a time of peace and helped start wars - Barack is saddled with those wars and is going to have to shut them down
* Blair's feelgood factor was encapsulated in "Things can only get better" - Barack said in pretty much his first statement that things are going to be tough (and drew comparisons with FDR and JFK for doing so)

But leaving all that aside the idea that Obama lacks policies is simply nonsense - anyone who saw the McCain/Obama debate will know that both sides have very detailed policies (and indeed very detailed attacks on each other's positions which would not be possible without such details being public) on inter alia:
healthcare
education
foreign policy (specifically the wars)
energy
taxation and the economy

In fact if you look at the Joe the Plumber thing that was only possible precisely because Obama had published detailed taxation policies which "Joe the Plumber" claimed would cost him umpty-thousand dollars and prevent him from taking over the business he worked for and launching his global plumbing empire. The fact that both sides had published detailed taxation plans was also why when it turned out "Joe the Plumber" had not actually told the truth about his work/financial circumstances, media analysts were then able to calculate that "Joe" would have been better off under Obama's proposed tax regime.

I think you've been badly misled by the "online political commentaries" you referred to earlier in this discussion who've either through their own ignorance assumed Obama has no policies (because they don't know about them) or more likely have simply ignored the facts for the sake of setting up a ostensibly appealing but sadly fallacious comparison between Barack and Blair. Maybe you should change where you get your sources of information from or at least back check the "facts" the right-wing blogosphere's arguments claim to rest on?
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flammableBen

« Reply #227 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:15:23 »

All good points there paul, but you had to go and ruin it all by using the word blogosphere. You muppet.
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pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #228 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:16:35 »

All good points there paul, but you had to go and ruin it all by using the word blogosphere. You muppet.
I'm from the muppetosphere. It's a kindler gentler world, although we live in fear of velcro
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Colin Todd

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« Reply #229 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:21:33 »

In what way do you mean "delivered nothing of any substance"?  I'm not his biggest fan, but you can't say that the the labour government did nothing of substance under Blair.

Gave the Bank of England Independence. Good Move
Bought in a national minimum wage. Good Move for some - NOT everyone
The 1998 Human Rights Act. Disaster
Ditched Hereditary peers from the House of Lords. But didn't complete the reform leaving the house in limbo to a certain extent
Set up the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parlement See the West Lothian question
Gave London an elected mayor fair enough
Consent to gay sex lowered to 16 Don't care gays allowed in the armed forces They always were as long they kept the,selves in the closet and civil partnerships allowed glad to see you didn't call them marriages
Passed the Freedom of Information Act which they are now trying reign in and introduce get out clauses to, especially where MP's expenses are concerned.
Tuition fees for higher education This is a good thing?

Those are definitely things of substance whether you agree with them or not, and it's not even touching on things like health spending much of it wasted  education which is failing foreign policy 2 illigal wars and the Northern Irish Peace process surrender to terrorists

I should have clarified: Has done nothing GOOD of any substance.  That list proves it.


Excellent post. Is the country in a better state now than pre nu-lab?   In my opinion, no.  They had a chance and have fucked it up.
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Colin Todd

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« Reply #230 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:27:41 »

Ironside - no-one actually cares what you think - Ben was merely proving you wrong yet again with solid examples of substance from the Blair government....

Whether you agree with any of them is completely irrelevant.....


I'm not hanging out of Ironsides arse here, but there is no proof either way that the majority of those things listed have worked.  If you think they have then its your opinion, much like it is Ironsides that they havnt.

If you think that for the ammount of money spent on them that the health and education systems have improved more than very slightly then you're a very optimistic bloke.

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flammableBen

« Reply #231 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:35:53 »


I'm not hanging out of Ironsides arse here, but there is no proof either way that the majority of those things listed have worked.  If you think they have then its your opinion, much like it is Ironsides that they havnt.

If you think that for the ammount of money spent on them that the health and education systems have improved more than very slightly then you're a very optimistic bloke.


Yeah but they are things of substance whether you agree with them or not. Which was my point. Most people will have been affected by at least a couple of things on that list.
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janaage
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« Reply #232 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:37:25 »

I care what Ironside thinks, his opinion/view shouldn't just be ignored because it may differ from the masses.

I don't care if there's a Obama/Blair similarity or not, for me, the big thing is he's not McCain, a straight forward replacement for Bush, with military experience who ticks every box as far as extremists are concerned.

Obama does signal a change in leadership for the yanks, which will be good for the world, one hopes.
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Ironside
Wir müssen die Liberalen ausrotten

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« Reply #233 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:37:25 »

Ironside - no-one actually cares what you think - Ben was merely proving you wrong yet again with solid examples of substance from the Blair government....

Whether you agree with any of them is completely irrelevant.....

Sheepshagger, you only seem to post when I do and your posts only ever seem to attack me.

Contribute something worth reading or fuck off.
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Genius, Gentleman Explorer, French Cabaret Chantoose  and Small Bets Placed and someone who knows who they are changed my signature but its only know that I can be arsed to change it....and I mean all the spelling mistakes.

Was it me? It can't have been an interesting enough event for me to remember - fB.
flammableBen

« Reply #234 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:39:54 »

The only posts from other people I ever see are when I'm on here. Cunts must be stalking me.
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Colin Todd

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« Reply #235 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:43:57 »

Yeah but they are things of substance whether you agree with them or not. Which was my point. Most people will have been affected by at least a couple of things on that list.


Well its not a very good point then. Every government will do things of substance over a 10 year period pretty much by default.

Of those you listed several have been ineffective at best, whilst others have just wasted huge amounts of (borrowed) public money.
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flammableBen

« Reply #236 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:51:22 »

Well its not a very good point then. Every government will do things of substance over a 10 year period pretty much by default.


Not according to ironside which is who I was replying to. He did pretty clearly state the whole "delivered nothing of any substance" bit.

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Colin Todd

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« Reply #237 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:52:58 »

fair enough.
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pauld
Aaron Aardvark

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« Reply #238 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 09:55:48 »

I don't care if there's a Obama/Blair similarity or not, for me, the big thing is he's not McCain, a straight forward replacement for Bush, with military experience who ticks every box as far as extremists are concerned.
Actually he didn't which is why he had to couple up with the ridiculous Palin woman. While in foreign affairs, McCain is hawkish, he's long been regarded by the Republican right as hopelessly liberal on domestic affairs. Hence Palin was brought in to shore up the "core vote" as she certainly does tick every extremist box. You could see the difference in the difference in tone in their rallies - Palin's more often resembled a good ol' down home 30s style lynch mob. I kind of feel sorry for McCain in that regard, he had to shore up his core vote but the woman he brought in to do it completely alienated a lot of swing voters. He was fighting an election against Obama, Bush and Palin (not to mention Lehman Bros) and in those circumstances did well to hold up the Republican vote to the extent he did.

Incidentally, now that Obama-Biden has defeated McCain-Palin, are Hustler going to follow up their "Nailin' Miss Paylin" DVD with a "Ridin' Joe Byden" follow-up?

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Bogus Dave
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« Reply #239 on: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 10:04:18 »

How was the human rights act a disaster? And who is the minimum wage act not good for? Not having a pop just genuinley curious
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Things get better but they never get good
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