Thetownend.com

 :crash:

I've been saying this for years!  :clap:

Whats happened?

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/sports/2012/10/16/3-serbian-football-fans-attacked-in-macedonia/ This?

more likely a reference to mass brawl at the end of the U21 match earlier.

and lay off the generic Serb bashing    ???

Kicked off at the end of the Under 21's match.

Sounds like there was some racist monkey noises at Danny Rose, who was sent off.

BBC Sport commentator Alistair Bruce-Ball in Serbia:"After England scored their second goal their players went off to celebrate. They have no supporters in the ground so clearly they were going to be celebrating in front of some Serbia fans. Those fans took exception.

"Danny Rose got separated from the group and then he clearly got involved in a slanging match with some spectators. He felt he was being racially abused and there was stuff being thrown at him. Then some of the Serbian players and staff piled in - they didn't like Rose having a go at their fans. Then it turned into a mass brawl.

"England very sensibly tried to get off the pitch as quickly as they could. Danny Rose was actually sent off and as he left the pitch he was mimicking a monkey by sticking his arms underneath his armpits. He was very clearly making the point that it was very clever, this racial abuse.

"We are going to see quite how hard, or not, Uefa come down on this. I have never seen anything quite like that."

Yeah just seen it.  No doubt they'll get a 500 euro fine for that.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/connor-wickhams-goal-danny-roses-red-card-brawl-amid-racist-claims-england-u21-v-serbia-u21/

by all accounts the ref was not having the best of games

and having seem the link above, i have to say that if steve wrigley has layed a right hook on one of those cunts he should be knighted

Got to say security was non existant.

UEFA should throw the book at the Serbs....but they won't.

Scummiest nation on earth. They should get a heavy fine and have to play their games behind closed doors for a bit.

there was security behind the goal we were defending just before scoring the second...

On a lighter note, Bosnia are 2-0 up against Lithuania, top of the group with 14 goals scored in 4 games! Dzeko with 5 and Ibisevic and Misimovic both on 4 a piece. Happy days!

Just throw them out and don't let them play in World Cups or UEFA qualifiers for 4 years.

Make that 3-0!

I noticed that also, there seemed to be plenty of security around the pitch but didn't see any of them intervene. Perhaps they were looking out for their own so turned a blind eye ! Shocking.

How many wars have these fuckers started?

Unfortunately the vast majority are racists.

In the last 100 years they've been involved in about 7/8. First Balkan War, Second Balkan War, WW1, WW2, War in Slovenia, Croatian War of Independance, Bosnian War, Kosovo War...

'The World War II persecution of Serbs refers to the widespread persecution of Serbs that included extermination, expulsions and forced religious conversions of large numbers of ethnic Serbs by the Ustaše regime in the Independent State of Croatia, and killings of Serbs by Albanian collaborationists and Axis occupying forces during World War II.
The numbers of Serbs persecuted by the Ustaše were very large, but the exact extent is the subject of much debate and estimates vary widely. Yad Vashem estimates over 500,000 murdered, 250,000 expelled and 200,000 forcibly converted to Catholicism.[3] The estimate of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is that the Ustaša authorities murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaše rule, out of which between 45,000 and 52,000 were murdered in the Jasenovac concentration camp.[9]'

No nation is innocent....

BBC Sport commentator Alistair Bruce-Ball in Serbia:"As soon as the players were in the tunnel this evening apparently there were issues. The Serbian conditioning coach was apparently jostling and getting his face in England players' faces. Jack Butland, the England goalkeeper, was peppered throughout the game with various objects thrown from the stands. Stuart Pearce had a seat thrown at him. There was a lot going on this evening, then at the end Danny Rose was racially abused."

Charming.

And how many of those wars were imposed from outside their borders. The KLA narco terrorists were also agitating for conflict. How many Serbian Orthodox places of worship razed to the ground or desecrated, downright lies spoken about them. They're historically a very put-upon people, so is it any surprise they've developed a siege mentality. The time I spent in Belgrade they were thoroughly pleasant. Describing them as racists, go take a look at Croatia's history or for that matter Bosnia, staunch Nazi's as I recollect?

Siege mentality? Look up Greater Serbia, hardly on the defensive...

That appears to be a racist statement in itself  ;)

I do agree that the Serbs seem to be responsible for more than their fair share of nasty types.
I'm also well aware of the recent history in the Balkans where, as you'll be all too aware, certainly the Bosnians suffered horrendously at the hands of the Serbs, although there were also too many atrocities committed by both Croats & Serbs against each other's communities.
However, it's not pleasant to tar everyone with Serbian heritage with the sins of those people.

Bunch of lightweights...Britain must be at least 3 times that.

How many of our wars in the past 100 years have been fought at home? They don't count.  :)

You are proud of your nation....good on you and it is to be expected.

Fact is the Serbs,Croats both were fucking dispicable during that war.......and to think it was just a few years back is mind boggling.

As for tonight...well it is no suprise which tells the story realy.

Bosnians certainly not averse to forming entire regiments under the tutelage of the Nazi's to commit atrocities against the Serbs. Hardly surprising feelings run deep. History isn't taught to me from the BBC tarring the Serbs as psychos. The entire region is aflame to this day with vendettas. This is no good guy/bad guy scenario. The Serbs don't easily forget the complicity of their neighbours with the Nazi's. No suffering is acceptable but you airbrush out why the Serbs harbour such grievances.

That regiment had the choice of joining the German army or being killed/sent to concentration camps. Hardly a fair comparison.

Home and away, then see who wins on aggregate.  My fav current British effort, is the Anglo-Zanzibar war of 1896, lasted all of 38 mins....unfortunately outside our time frame.

And what has this to do with skin colour.......seems to me that not many blacks fought against the Serbs at any time but are constantly bombarded with racism during matches.
It is 2012 folks.........booing black players is just plain pathetic......cringeworthy and to be honest no amount of proud nation scenario excuses it.

Rather a case of being seduced by promises of a land grab, I suggest. Everyone in that region is partial, on the basis of their heritage, you are clearly no different. Refer to Hertha's original post, now that puts everything that has happened in the recent past in the shade, but clearly those that desire to paint the Serbs as out and out blood letter choose to whitewash those events.

Agreed leefer, never acceptable, bit I defy colafola to tell me, racist chants aren't a stranger to Croat and Bosnian venues. Smacks of him seizing on this to debase the entire Serb nation.

Land grab?  :girlgiggle:

Bosniaks have always been fighting to defend what little land they have.

Happens all over Eastern Europe, but the most extreme examples always tend to occur in Serbia.

I don't wish for this to turn into a youtube-esque tit for tat rant, but it bothers me that a thread which descended into collectively slurring a whole nation was created in the name of denouncing racism! Hippocricy :no:

Slovenia's the pick of that region. Beautiful place, lovely people, gorgeous countryside.

Have no idea the ratio of racists per capita but it's a great place to visit.

Yeh, Lesce Bled a very idyllic place to spend some time.

It's because of Slovenia's proximity to Central Europe, they're more civilised as a result.

MACEDONIA 1 SERBIA 0

Presumably this is the same central Europe that has no history of wars, fascism or war crimes on an industrial scale...?

You completely missed the point.

Wars are bad. Racism is bad. Nationalistic fervour is quite often bad. Religious intolerance is bad.

Case closed, let's have a group hug.

Linking racism and violence in a football ground to wars a nation has been involved in. Cracking stuff TEF, Coca Fola in particular could write the sequel to Escape to Victory.

Given his heritage he could play one of the guards...

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

From the video clips I've seen it looked pretty bad. Didn't see any of the England players or staff reacting to it, other than Rose kicking a ball, most seemed pretty calm and just got off the pitch. The Serbs seemed the aggressors, you can see two of them kicking out and plenty of others going for it. Plus the stream of missiles raining down on the pitch. Though maybe there is another side to it that the videos don't show, doubt it though.

The real problem is UEFA will do fuck all about it and the FA will respond with a few sternly worded press releases.

I'd be happy for the FA to tell UEFA to sort their shit out or withdraw from their competitions until they do. It needs some kind of bold statement or action or they'll never get real about these problems. If that stuff happened in a PL game the shit would hit the fan and rightly so.

If I was Croatian then maybe..

It's a beautiful place to hire a boat and row your mrs to the 13th century church, although rowing back takes it out of you a little!

Interesting that this should happen on the same day this article has been published by UEFA. Let's see how their actions stack up to their claims.

http://m.uefa.com/uefa/news/1877138/

Think they've already answered. No mention of the trouble on their website, except a reference in the match report of the red card for Rose and they give the impression that was for fighting with the opposition after the whistle;

http://www.uefa.com/under21/season=2013/matches/round=2000193/match=2010667/postmatch/report/index.html#england+serbia

If this had been the other way round, Platini would have already held a press conference announcing the length of our ban.

How many times does something like this have to happen before UEFA/FIFA do something meaningful?

the problem there is you're expecting UEFA/FIFA to do something meaningful.

They'll probably insist Rose shakes the hand of each and every Serbian fan abusing him. That solves all the problems, innit.

Whilst the events of last night were inexcusable I do wish some England fans would drop the victim mentality.

Sorry just wanted to clarify, by victim mentality I mean the whole 'if this had been the other way round' rubbish that gets roll out every time something like this happens in Europe.

England were dealt with harshly in the 80's after 39 people were killed by mindless thuggery, not because their fans were racist bastards.

What I don't mean by victim mentality is being on the  end of racist abuse, as that like I say it not right.

Genuine question, how did Britain deal with racism in the 1980s. I remember the big bananas, monkey chants and such like in significant numbers. I just don't remember how we got rid of them, other than I presume with banning orders.

I guess in smaller numbers its still there, but we somehow made it unacceptable to rear its ugly head.

Let me say I detest racism. Its stupidity of the highest order. But I can sort of see what Jan means.

I think its a national Serbian mentality problem here, I'm not sure how FIFA can change the mentality of a nation overnight.

A £20K fine won't do it, perhaps bans will make the Serbian FA sit up and take notice and do something. But FIFA will sweep it under the carpet.

Given the history of the region it's actually a lot more appropriate than the usual throw-away stuff. All of the major protagonists in the civil war to some extent used hooligans as their proxies in the build-up to the conflict (e.g. the infamous Dynamo Zagreb v Red Star Belgrade riot is still marked by some Croats as the start of their war of independence from Croatia) and many ultra-nationalist hooligan/criminal gangs actively participated in the war as some of the most brutal militias e.g. Arkan's "Tigers" came out of the Red Star Belgrade hooligan gang he led. There isn't the neat line of separation in many areas of the world between criminals v hooligans v ultranationalist/fascist gangs and some politicians are all too ready to exploit that (e.g. in Argentina as well). So I don't think Coca Fola was as far wide of the mark as you're assuming

They can't it's a problem for Serbian society to deal with. What FIFA can and should do is say they don't want the team participating in international competitions until their society has cleaned up it's act, at least to the extent that visiting teams can expect to play a game of football without molestation.

The FA have made a rod for their own backs with their leniency of JT, tough for them go to UEFA asking for the book to be thrown at Serbia when back home it's just a slap on the wrist for their skipper....

Except that it never happened when it was the other way round...we got a £68,000 fine

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/dec/18/2

And a final warning...

Serbia have played behind closed doors already, but I think this was violance related rather than racism related?

Oh, and at the time that fine was the largest imposed for racist behaviour from fans. They just don't care about the issue.

Re. everyones favourite racist centre back, John Terry's fine will probably eclipse what the Serbian FA are forced to pay

Nice picture on the back of the guardian of the goalkeeping coach getting headbutted.

I do wish some people would check their facts and stop talking rubbish. The England fans were still poorly treated by FIFA and UEFA well in to the 2000's with constant threats that if they so much as dropped a crisp packet they'd kick us out of tournaments. There was a continual stream of pre-emptive strikes which had no basis whatsoever.

The other way round? Maybe I'm going blind but I couldn't see any reference in that report to England fans launching a stream of missiles on to the pitch at the players nor a large number of the England players and staff launching physical attacks on the opposition.

The other difference is that was ten years ago, a somewhat isolated incident and the FA responded immediately and strongly to take charge of the situation and to prevent re-occurences.

That was also a big fine compared to others. Would it have been the same if it was another country?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19979603

UEFA grow a fucking pair of bollocks and chuck the cunts out of competitions.

BREAKING NEWS
The Serbian FA denies any forms of racism towards the England Under-21 team last night and says defender Danny Rose behaved in an "inappropriate, unsportsmanlike and vulgar manner" towards their fans.

Unbelievable.

That sounds like a major rearguard action bordering on panic to me...

Because England fans behaved impeccably as they always have done?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/753819.stm

England have always had some fanS who are cunts!

A bit like the mob this year who decided to get revenge on Italy putting England out Euro 2012 by smashing up some Italian restuarants .... Childish pricks!

Also think they went on the rampage in Marseille during WC 1998?

Think you linked to the wrong article, that's about Arsenal fans at an Arsenal game and nothing to do with England fans as you claim.

Serbia in denial shocker.

you are all as fucking mental as each other

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2003/07/21/croatia_030721.html

so dont give me that innocent bollocks

I'm not Croatian.

Those Serbs are nearly as bad as this lot! Pathetic  :clap:

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/coventry-city-fc/coventry-city-fc-news/2012/10/17/92746-32045146/

Ok, sorry try this one instead

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2000/jun/19/euro2000.sport3

Point still remains that we're in no position to 'preach' to others about fans' conduct. While I sympathise (sort of) with your initial implication that UEFA treat us differently (partly due to non-football politics) it doesn't negate the fact that we've hardly covered ourselves with glory in the past. It's the equivalent of arguing that if the Heysel stadium had been a lot safer then Liverpool fans could have had a proper punch up with innocent Italian fans without having to kill them. Given that we spent decades vandalising European cities on a whim, it's no wonder that they maybe a tad pissed off and still hold a grudge.

Football in this country has made great strides in trying to eradicate racism, hooliganism etc, but preaching to other countries when an England player gets a lesser sentence than other players of a similar offence rightly smells of arrogance.

So yes in my view Serbia should be banned over their actions last night (and not all of the England team members covered themselves with glory albeit with deep provocation), but the implication that we're victims in UEFA treatment is sorely misguided. If we don't want to get 'unfairly' banned for racist or violent behaviour...there's a simple solution - don't give them the excuse.

Wonder how the Serb FA will explain this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9ZZY9U1CdDs#!

They're saying boo-urns?

 ;D

We had a major problem with hooliganism in this country and worked hard to sort it out. Whilst there are still some issues here a lot of other countries are far worse, deny they have an issue, do nothing to resolve it and the authorities turn a blind eye. We're still being punished for our past whilst others get away with it in the present.

The big difference for me is that we take the issue seriously. Anyone racist chanting and those responsible will get long bans. Same for if you throw missiles on to the pitch. Bad behaviour isn't tolerated even by other fans with most who misbehave getting grassed up to the stewards on the spot. It's a totally different attitude to a lot of European countries.

The article you linked to doesn't actually detail any trouble, just the over reaction from the authorities. Plus if I remember correctly the only trouble at Euro 2000 with England fans was in Belgium. Which maybe could have been avoided if the Belgium Police accepted the offer of assistance from the British Police, the Dutch accepted and didn't have problems. Not saying it caused it or is an excuse but it is a factor.

You might not agree with the punishment Terry got but the FA provided a reasonable explanation. Terry made one racist comment so got a lesser ban than Suarez who made repeated comments. Not sure I agree but I accept their reasoning.

I didn't see any footage of England players behaving badly against Serbia, the only physical contact seemed to be them defending themselves. Though if any did go over the top they should be punished as well.

Paul Ince saying it's not easy to say ignore the rascists - if you ignore them you have beaten them, as hard as it might be
Doing what Rose did (albeit understandable in the circumstances) means they get the reaction they want.

Interested to here your views on this one. When Siniša Mihajlović got taunted about being a gypsy by Patrick Viera during a match and responded by calling him a black cunt the former was done for racism but the latter had no action taken against him. Double standards?

UEFA have announced disciplinary proceedings against Serbia.....and England.

Yes absolutely. They should both have been done

charging one but not the other is like  pot calling kettle, oh....

If you're going to try and have a debate about a subject perhaps you should use evidence to back up your points. So what if UEFA threatened to ban a country with appalling historical form from the 70's and 80's.

With all these threats though I wonder  why they didn't get banned after causing the postponement of the Ireland match? Or when they kicked off in France '98 (in Marseille and St Etienne)?

Like others have said though the FA have dropped the racist moral high ground with their treatment of John Terry, could have used him as an example and chose not to.

Sorry for not checking my facts but didn't a player get racially abused THIS season at Milwall - is Milwall going to be banned from playing in the FL for a couple of years?

English FA charged as well as Serbia:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19976781

Will be interesting to see what evidence they give against England. I suppose it's quite possible that one or two players did act out of line in the brawl at the end, but most seemed to just head down the tunnel.

Do you mean for things like pitch invasions and broken crossbars?  ;)

I take it you're referring to the 1995 game in Ireland where the trouble was caused by Combat 18, a neo-Nazi organisation with no interest in football other than using it to cause trouble and promote their beliefs. The British Police knew they were going and were going to cause trouble and informed the Irish Police and offered them assistance in dealing with it - the information was ignored and the assistance refused. The official report found that if the Irish Police had acted on the information and accepted the help of the British Police the trouble would have been avoided.

So if you'd checked the facts and the evidence you'd have known they weren't banned after this game as the trouble was caused by neo-Nazi's and the incompetence of the Irish Police.

All I need to know about Serbia, I learned from the popular motion picture 'A Serbian Film.'

Just looked that up on IMDB - don't think I'll be rushing to get that DVD.
I can't imagine that it was sponsored by the Serbian Tourist Agency!

Was it nazis kicking off in 98 too then?

No that was definitely football hooligans, I was in Marseille when it kicked off at the Prado beach between the English, Tunisians and French amongst others.

I guess you're talking about the incident at the 1998 World Cup where German fans beat a French policeman to a pulp, leaving him in a coma for six weeks and with permanent brain damage? Think it was suspected that Nazi groups were involved with hooliganism in Germany but not sure if there was a link in this case.

I think Jan was being a tad tongue in cheek.

Trouble in Marseile, trouble in St Etienne. I'm not having a go at England fans here at all, as there are good and bad in all support, but I don't buy this opinion that UEFA are out to get England. In fact they're probably pro England due to the cash that is brought into the game through England.

I also think it's an insult to the families of the Heysel victims that some english people seem to think because they got banned after that event other countries should get banned for the kind of thing that happened on Tuesday - which was completely out of order.

For too long UEFA were too harsh on England over the hooliganism. It's a lot better now but they still seem to see it solely as an English problem and refuse to accept it's a problem in a lot of other countries. Though there is still plenty of anti-English sentiment in the world of football for various reasons, some of it self inflicted.

I agree about a ban not being the answer, as I don't think it will solve anything. What solved the problem here was the change in attitude across the board, from the Government, the FA, the clubs, the press and right down to the fans. If a fan throws something on to the pitch or makes a racist chant the chances are they'll get grassed up to the stewards on the spot. Failing that they'll be tracked down one way or another and dealt with.

Unfortunately the behaviour is tolerated, accepted and in some cases supported in other European countries.

I think regardless of whether were a bunch of cunts as well or not, UEFA are a pile of shit and the history they have of punishments is all over the shop.  We can only wait and see, but I can only guess that there will be no more than a pathetic fine for the serbs and probably a fine for us as well. 

After which people will be pointing to other fines such as Bendtners for advertising pants and the one that Man City got for coming back 1 minute late in a match recently in total disgust.

No, you're wrong people want action against Serbia because they have previous on several occasions.

I'll be blunt.  So how many people have the Serb supporters killed? Because I believe that's why uefa banned English clubs, they had no option but to do so after that. Think I'll leave it at that now as I'm probably just going round in circles here.

The IMDB article makes it sound alright to be honest. It is much worse than that. Horrendous.

Ian Holloway rightly lays into the stupid circumstances around the under 21 match. Great interview.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20009560