Religion.

[reeves4england]

Plenty of good points being raised although you wouldn't believe how tired I am of hearing the old "the Bible has too many contradictions" line without anybody ever convincing me of a single one. And I'm pretty sure I've spent more time reading it than most on here.

Also, to say that religion is bad because people use it for bad purposes is a contradiction in itself. Religion is used by people like those who disagree with it on this thread - people who have never truly been dedicated to it and take only the bits that suit them and ignore the rest. That's not a judgement on people on here - merely an explanation of why religion has caused problems.

Reeves - what about this one ?

Was baby Jesus’ life threatened in Jerusalem?
 
 (a)   Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
 
 (b)   No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)
 
Seems like a simple contradiction to me.......

Jesus was presented after Mary and Joseph's time of purification had ended. Not sure how long this is exactly, but a matter of weeks I think. They fled to Egypt around 2 years after Jesus was born, hence Herod ordering the slaughter of all boys under the age of 2

But according to the book of Matthew they did flee there, but the book of Luke said they did not ....

How can this be interpreted as anything else other than a contradiction.....?

The book of Luke doesn't say they didn't flee. It just doesn't say they did. If you read two books about WWII then something will be mentioned in one and not in the other - doesn't mean it's all made up.

I don't want to take this thread down the whole "let's try and prove eachother wrong" direction as after 2000 years it's been impossible to decide one way or the other. We're not going to settle it here, and its not what the thread was intended for.

As for the point about non-Christians going to hell...if you call that judgemental you've missed the whole point of what Christianity is all about. As a Christian, you basically accept that you are far from perfect. It is failure to accept your wrongdoing that leads to hell, rather than not being good enough.

[BANGKOK RED]

One thing that's bugs me about just about any religion is the inability and/or unwillingness to answer simple questions.

I think that I have asked 3 times now about Adam and Eve v's Evolution, and the closest anybody has come to answering it is an Atheist.

So again: Where do Christians stand in regards to the fact that Darwin's Yheory of Evolution has all but proven that The Garden of Eden story is a genetic impossibility?

[reeves4england]

One thing that's bugs me about just about any religion is the inability and/or unwillingness to answer simple questions.

I think that I have asked 3 times now about Adam and Eve v's Evolution, and the closest anybody has come to answering it is an Atheist.

So again: Where do Christians stand in regards to the fact that Darwin's Yheory of Evolution has all but proven that The Garden of Eden story is a genetic impossibility?

Sorry, I've skipped over this thread so missed a lot. Basically many Christians believe different things as it all comes down to how you interpret what is written in Genesis. I'm not a biologist so I have no idea just how credible the theory of evolution is, but many questions are asked of it, so it does seem to have its flaws and this is why I can believe in Adam and Eve.

[BANGKOK RED]

But how is The Theory of Evolution flawed when it has been proven to be true dating back for Millions of years?

[stfctownenda]

But how is The Theory of Evolution flawed when it has been proven to be true dating back for Millions of years?

I think Reeves has answered alot of questions in a reasoned and dignified way, I have purposely tried to stay away from this thread as I knew it would turn out like this.

Bangkok there is also factual stuff to back up Christianity if you went on an Alpha course you could get additional information regarding this.

We are in no means against non believers and don't think there any less than us.  I understand you do not believe and respect your decision not to but you have to understand faith is exactly that it is a belief not always based on fact.

I couldn't explain to you every reason on why I choose to be a christian but I just know there is a God, past experiences and circumstances have only strengthened my belief.

[Don Rogers Shop]

But how is The Theory of Evolution flawed when it has been proven to be true dating back for Millions of years?

I think Reeves has answered alot of questions in a reasoned and dignified way, I have purposely tried to stay away from this thread as I knew it would turn out like this.

Bangkok there is also factual stuff to back up Christianity if you went on an Alpha course you could get additional information regarding this.

We are in no means against non believers and don't think there any less than us.  I understand you do not believe and respect your decision not to but you have to understand faith is exactly that it is a belief not always based on fact.

I couldn't explain to you every reason on why I choose to be a christian but I just know there is a God, past experiences and circumstances have only strengthened my belief.

Very good post .

[reeves4england]

But how is The Theory of Evolution flawed when it has been proven to be true dating back for Millions of years?

The point is that it hasn't been proven. There are huge gaps in fossil records. There is no evidence of an increase in genetic information (amoebas evolving into animals and unltimately humans would require a huge increase in information). Ape-to-human transformation maps are based on assumptions which may well be incorrect. Some 'ape-men' have been proven to simply be apes that were reconstructed wrong, others were actually genetically identical to humans. Biogenesis teaches that life comes from life, whilst most evolutionists believe that the first life came from a spontaneous reaction of non-living particles.

I'm really no expert on evolution and this is just a random collection of arguments I have found. The point I am trying to make is that so called 'disproofs' of religion are often full of flaws. People don't take time to read the counter arguments and this just leads to misunderstanding. I'm sure there are people on here who read Dawkins' book, but I bet there aren't three forum members who read Alistair McGrath's response to it.

[BANGKOK RED]

I may come across as anti-religion but that is not my intention at all. Rather I have a genuine interest and therefore have questions. And I genuinely apologise should I have offended anybody.

To me at least it seem as though there is a real stumbling block with evolution, which I find a shame.

[reeves4england]

I may come across as anti-religion but that is not my intention at all. Rather I have a genuine interest and therefore have questions. And I genuinely apologise should I have offended anybody.

To me at least it seem as though there is a real stumbling block with evolution, which I find a shame.

I'm not offended don't worry. I remember you stating earlier in the thread that you were respective of others' beliefs. I personally think that evolution, as stated above, has flaws and until the remaining questions are answered I see it as a less-than-adequate argument.

[reeves4england]

Oh and as stfctownenda said, the Alpha course is a great way to actually ask these questions to people better equipped to answer them than I am.

Similarly there is the Christianity Explored course, which was written by a guy from my church in London. He's a top bloke and dedicates himself to that sort of thing.

Not sure if you'll find eithe rof them in Bangkok though

[DMR]

I believe in God but it bears no impact on the way I live my life sadly, and I'm not one to turn to religion when I feel low.

I reckon I'll live my life how I see fit then just repent on my deathbed.  

[flammableBen]

I'd be interested to read any serious religious attempts at arguing against evolution. Most things I've seen tend to be complete nonsense which just play on the fact that lot's of people find it difficult to get their heads around evolution anyway (stuff like this ).

The problem is that the way each side aproaches a debate like this are somewhat incompatible. Religion by definition requires faith and belief in something being true, whilst the whole scientific method is set around trying to prove your hypothesis is incorrect. Which sort of makes the whole thing pointless.

The whole teaching creationism is science lessons thing does piss me off a bit. However much you dress it up, creationism isn't science. It's a belief, and so it's set up in a way to be untestable if you believe it. Which comes back to my previous point about the two not really being compatible.

[Arriba]

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.bankock raises good questions but they will never be answered.they will just have the edges danced around a bit as is always the case.
its not about trying to offend or have a pop.its just having a whole lot of questions that never get answered.it is for those reasons that i will never believe in a god.i have to take things from what i'm told and know. and all that points to the bible as a mythical fairytale.


because of the many flaws in the bible,i feel teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!
let them make up their own minds i say

[BANGKOK RED]

Videos like the Banana one from Ben's post do nothing to support religion, and I suspect that others (Including beleivers) on here would agree.

If anything it simply strenghtens the Evolution theory as the Banana could simply have evolved to be a convenient food for us and other apes/monkeys. To aid in the dispersal of its seeds.

I am sure that there must be better arguments than that one.

An hour or so on the web tells me that our own evolution from other Apes is proven as FACT, it's NAILED. There are some questions further down the line which only come about through missing links. The only thing that is really being questioned is the mechanism I.E. Evolution (FACT), through natural selection (Theory)

The only groups which dimiss evolution are religion, those looking for an alternative (Which is what science is all about), and the Philosophical types who claim that absolutely nothing at all (Including life itself) can be 100% proven as hard fact.

[stfctownenda]

there is concrete evidence of evolution,this is growing by the day.religion is a faith-belief that cannot, and will never be proven.
i'm sure there was a jewish rebel(jesus),who had support against the roman empire.but alot more has been made of it than i think happend.some of the stories from the bible are so ott they are laugable.
christians change the way they explain things as time goes by,as more evidence is found that blows the bible out of the water. they keep changing views to justify their deluded beliefs.the different churces dont all even see the bible in the same way as each other.

teaching god and the bible as a fact to kids from the age of 4 in primary schools is a disgrace!

To suggest its a disgrace is very short sighted christianity has always been this countrys national religion and the bible has some great stories which most kids love and it can also teach them valuable lessons.  I am sure they will be more than capable of making a choice themselves as they get older on whether they choose to believe or not.

As I said earlier christianity also has factual evidence to back it up and courses such as the Alpha course will give you additional information on this.  This is scientific evidence which further strengthens the case in religions favour.

I wont argue that christians have changed with time as have people as life was very different back then compared to how it is now.

I dont consider my beliefs to be deluded nor do I see all this evidence blowing the bible out the water.  I do not disagree too much either that various denominations disagree on things but I don't see how that should cloud your own judgement or beliefs.

I appreciate your opinion but as I said although its not easy for me to explain my faith I am 100% sure in my belief that there is a God and an after life.