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Author Topic: The "it could actually be worse" thread ....  (Read 444480 times)
reeves4england

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« Reply #480 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 10:08:48 »

Interesting thread on Bristol Rovers accounts (published today) which show:

1) wages were 97% of income
2) they lost £65k per week from day-to-day operations
3) wages went up 12% and revenue down 12%
4) currently £20m in debt, relying on a holding company to stay afloat

In terms of FFP they're not ruined yet, but if they lose the same amount next year they could be looking at a points deduction

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1134348659468976128
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #481 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 10:19:36 »

Rovers are certainly not the only ones in the lower 2 divisions to be like this, so many clubs flying close to the wind, hoping for that promotion season or good cup run to break even.

So many of the clubs are being propped up by an individual backer like Mansfield, FGR, Cheltenham, Yeovil, Notts County, Crawley etc etc.

The episodes at Bury, Bolton and Gateshead are likely to become a yearly occurance as teams chase the "big time" and the financial rewards of the upper 2 leagues.
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Ardiles

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« Reply #482 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 10:26:53 »

Now that Bristol City have got their act together (also with the help of a wealthy financial backer, it has to be said), I doubt very much that a city the size of Bristol will be able to sustain two league clubs in the longer term.  Rovers' future is going to be particularly challenging.
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RedRag

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« Reply #483 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 10:31:17 »

Not sure about the Championship, Venks.  I understand that's where the biggest losses tend to be.  Almost impossible for a smaller club such as ourselves to compete with clubs with much bigger followings and/or parachute payments.

We are however punching below our weight in League Two.  Not saying we're too good for it but we should never be languishing in it.  It is tinpot for a club with our support and potential.  I'm certainly concerned that League 2 seems to be a level gaining acceptance amongst some of our fans.  

Pragmatism yes but ambition over fatalism anyday.  We have a number of advantages at our present level.  Shared ground ownership would be another one.  Onwards and upwards please.  
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Peter Venkman
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« Reply #484 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 10:48:51 »

Not sure about the Championship, Venks.  I understand that's where the biggest losses tend to be.  Almost impossible for a smaller club such as ourselves to compete with clubs with much bigger followings and/or parachute payments.
Oh absolutely the Championshp is the one with the greatest potential operating losses because teams over spend to reach the giddy heights of the Premier League.

After all if teams like Swindon can get there then there is hope for all the "smaller" clubs.

Many many clubs over extend themselves in trying to reach the "promised land" as the rewards can far outweigh the negatives financially, but thats only if you eventually do reach it.

Bolton gambled and failed, Shitty are gambling and failed this time but with their backing they could eventually reach it but before they do the operating losses will be massive, as they are already, but one season could well underwrite that....eventually.
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Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #485 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 10:50:23 »

Not sure about the Championship, Venks.  I understand that's where the biggest losses tend to be.  Almost impossible for a smaller club such as ourselves to compete with clubs with much bigger followings and/or parachute payments.

We are however punching below our weight in League Two.  Not saying we're too good for it but we should never be languishing in it.  It is tinpot for a club with our support and potential.  I'm certainly concerned that League 2 seems to be a level gaining acceptance amongst some of our fans.  

Pragmatism yes but ambition over fatalism anyday.  We have a number of advantages at our present level.  Shared ground ownership would be another one.  Onwards and upwards please.  


There does seem to be a number on here, who are grateful to Power for at least keeping us afloat as a middling Div 4 outfit, rather than accepting we should be able to sustain a middling Div 3 club, as we have been for most of our 100 years in the FL.  I still maintain Power needs to up his game and get us back, to the Div 3 perch he inherited as owner.
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Kinky Tom
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« Reply #486 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:16:23 »

If Power get's us back to that point, Reg, along with ground ownership and a club owned (we still don't know yet either way) training ground then would a few seasons in Div 4 be forgivable if we suddenly become an attractive investment opportunity?

On paper he'd be the best owner we've perhaps ever had. 
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Pookemon

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« Reply #487 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:19:30 »


I think this case sums up completely why football clubs should be not for profit trusts, rather than companies with far stricter governance placed on loans.   Whilst company A can borrow a £1m at 138% API secured on the assets of football club B every club is in danger.   Clubs should also not be able to borrow against future season ticket revenue (like Rangers did) or sell off 10 years of canteen revenue!

Our chairman's decision making has seen us go backwards, but he's not done anything over the last 5 years to suggest that he would do anything like this (unlike numerous other chairmen we've had in the recent past).   For me the constant hate towards him seems unjustified - there's a difference between poor decisions, made in good faith and a deliberate, unethical and borderline criminal cash grab.
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The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey

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« Reply #488 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:20:04 »

Will joint ownership mean that it would be impossible for one party individually to, say, raise a loan on their half?
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RedRag

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« Reply #489 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:34:02 »

Good question.  My unscientific take is that it would depend on the terms of co-ownership agreed.  

It may be that to, a reduced extent, Power could obtain better borrowing terms or more extended credit from a lender either through fixed or floating charges or a direct equitable charge on a half share.  

It would (surely) be impossible under the terms of any co-ownership arrangement for a sale of the CG itself ever to be enforced by a creditor to recover his loan.  

However Power/the club may well wish to obtain limited benefit at the expense of charging its share in the CG - even to repay Power's own lending to the club.  Indeed the very purchase by Power/the Club will require financial outlay that would need securing.

Accountants and trust member input, anyone?
« Last Edit: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:39:24 by RedRag » Logged
Reg Smeeton
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« Reply #490 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:40:09 »

If Power get's us back to that point, Reg, along with ground ownership and a club owned (we still don't know yet either way) training ground then would a few seasons in Div 4 be forgivable if we suddenly become an attractive investment opportunity?

On paper he'd be the best owner we've perhaps ever had. 

I don't think we'll pull in any extra fans, because Power owns a bit of Highworth or half the CG.... however we might pullin a few extra if we get back to Div 3 and play some winning football again at the CG.  That's what I'll carrying on basing my judgement of Power on.  I'm not sure the ownerships are necessary to make that happen....
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Panda Paws

« Reply #491 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:45:20 »

I don't think we'll pull in any extra fans, because Power owns a bit of Highworth or half the CG.... however we might pullin a few extra if we get back to Div 3 and play some winning football again at the CG.  That's what I'll carrying on basing my judgement of Power on.  I'm not sure the ownerships are necessary to make that happen....

So better to be ran like Bury than us?
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Kinky Tom
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« Reply #492 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 11:51:05 »

I don't think we'll pull in any extra fans, because Power owns a bit of Highworth or half the CG.... however we might pullin a few extra if we get back to Div 3 and play some winning football again at the CG.  That's what I'll carrying on basing my judgement of Power on.  I'm not sure the ownerships are necessary to make that happen....

Not necessary but surely desirable alongside good on the field performance?
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pauld
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« Reply #493 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 12:05:15 »

Interesting thread on Bristol Rovers accounts (published today) which show:

1) wages were 97% of income
2) they lost £65k per week from day-to-day operations
3) wages went up 12% and revenue down 12%
4) currently £20m in debt, relying on a holding company to stay afloat

In terms of FFP they're not ruined yet, but if they lose the same amount next year they could be looking at a points deduction

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1134348659468976128

They've already announced a "restructuring" of backroom staff which has led to their well-regarded Academy manager leaving to pursue other options
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pauld
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« Reply #494 on: Friday, May 31, 2019, 12:14:16 »

I don't think we'll pull in any extra fans, because Power owns a bit of Highworth or half the CG.
But that's not the purpose of either. The purpose is to make the club a more attractive business for fresh investment or new buyers. Which makes funds available to invest in the team. Which, if well spent, produces a better team capable of promotion, which brings about the "middling Div 3 status" we all yearn for Smiley
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