Bob Crow

[herthab]

I just can't resist.

And before I get all of the bollocks about "what about the poor, the sick, the starving" and so on, they were more than adequately looked after by charity and the benevolence of the better off before the state decided to fuck it all up.

What utter bollocks. Look at the US for an example of how well the poor, sick & starving are 'looked after' without a welfare state.

[Talk Talk]

What utter bollocks. Look at the US for an example of how well the poor, sick & starving are 'looked after' without a welfare state.

Utter bollocks back in your face Steve. Have you never heard of food stamps? Medicare? Medicaid? The US have a huge welfare state.

Try http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/food_stamps/food_stamp_nation-SNAP.html for a start.

[Reg Smeeton]

I'd not heard of this fella until it was posted on here. Not interested in politics,  not interested in watching the news as it's mostly depressing.

Well you've learned something today 4D....the teachers on here will be proud 

[ron dodgers]

Teachers in the UK are amongst the highest paid teachers in Europe - full stop !

have a look at he OECD report from 2012 - they're not that well paid
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en

[jayohaitchenn]

Pretty much, yes.

There's not much difference between that and, say, me putting £200 per month into my pension expecting a future annuity of £10,000 per year only to then have to put my contribution up to £400 per month to get that same £10,000 per year.

It's still a contract, if you want to get pedantic about it...

More fool you then.

[Reg Smeeton]

have a look at he OECD report from 2012 - they're not that well paid
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en

I wonder how that correlates with the recent OECD literacy and numeracy tables for young adults, where England is in the relegation zone...

Numeracy test 16 to 24-year-olds

Netherlands
Finland
Japan
Flanders (Belgium)
South Korea
Austria
Estonia
Sweden
Czech Republic
Slovak Republic
Germany
Denmark
Norway
Australia
Poland
Canada
Cyprus
Northern Ireland
France
Ireland
England
Spain
Italy
United States
Source: OECD Survey of Adult Skills 2013

[Talk Talk]

I wonder how that correlates with the recent OECD literacy and numeracy tables for young adults, where England is in the relegation zone...

It doesn't. League table figures for 15 year service primary school teachers in equivalent US dollars.

Netherlands           52,292    1
Finland      37,886    2
Japan              45,741    3
Belgium (Fr.)   44,407    4
Korea              48,251    5
Austria      41,633    6
Estonia      12,306    7
Sweden      34,387    8
Czech Republic   20,185    9
Slovak Republic   12,858    10
Germany      58,662    11
Denmark      50,332    12
Norway      37,585    13
Australia           48,522    14
Poland      16,506    15
Canada      56,349    16
France      33,152    19
Ireland      54,954    20
England      44,269    21
Spain              41,339    22
Italy              32,969    23
United States   46,130    24

The average of those 22 countries is $39,578 so English teachers are paid 12% above that and are still in the bottom four.

[fuzzy]

How many of those countries leave their teachers to get on with their jobs?

How many of those countries inflict interfering beuracracy on their teachers?

How does that effect the table?

[Reg Smeeton]

It doesn't. League table figures for 15 year service primary school teachers in equivalent US dollars.

Netherlands           52,292    1
Finland      37,886    2
Japan              45,741    3
Belgium (Fr.)   44,407    4
Korea              48,251    5
Austria      41,633    6
Estonia      12,306    7
Sweden      34,387    8
Czech Republic   20,185    9
Slovak Republic   12,858    10
Germany      58,662    11
Denmark      50,332    12
Norway      37,585    13
Australia           48,522    14
Poland      16,506    15
Canada      56,349    16
France      33,152    19
Ireland      54,954    20
England      44,269    21
Spain              41,339    22
Italy              32,969    23
United States   46,130    24

The average of those 22 countries is $39,578 so English teachers are paid 12% above that and are still in the bottom four.

I suspected it wouldn't, based on the most cursory of glances.... has Gove had the vote of confidence yet?

It's interesting that although the US is at the foot of this table, it is massively out front in the 2013 top 100 univs table...

2013 Rank


1       Harvard University    US
2       Massachusetts Institute of Technology    US
3       University of Cambridge    UK
4        University of Oxford    UK
5        University of California, Berkeley    US
6        Stanford University    US
7        Princeton University    US
8        University of California, Los Angeles    US
9        University of Tokyo    Japan
10        Yale University    US
11        California Institute of Technology    US
12        University of Michigan    US
13        Columbia University    US
14        University of Chicago    US
14       Imperial College London    UK
16        University of Toronto    Canada
17        Cornell University    US
18       University of Pennsylvania    US
19        Johns Hopkins University    US
20        University College London    UK
20        Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zürich    Switzerland
22        National University of Singapore    Singapore
23        Kyoto University    Japan
24        University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign    US
25       London School of Economics and Political Science    UK
26        Carnegie Mellon University    US
27       University of Texas at Austin    US
27        University of Washington    US
29        New York University    US
30        University of Wisconsin-Madison    US
31       University of British Columbia    Canada
31       Duke University    US
31       McGill University    Canada
34        University of California, San Diego    US
35       Tsinghua University    China
36       The University of Hong Kong    Hong Kong
37        Northwestern University    US
38        Georgia Institute of Technology    US
39        University of Melbourne    Australia
40       University of California, San Francisco    US
41       Seoul National University    Korea, Republic Of
42       Australian National University    Australia
42       University of Massachusetts    US
44       Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München    Germany
45        Peking University    China
46       University of Edinburgh    UK
47       University of Manchester    UK
48        University of California, Davis    US
49       The University of Sydney    Australia
50        Lomonosov Moscow State University    Russian Federation
50        Purdue University    US
51-60        Delft University of Technology    Netherlands
51-60       École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne    Switzerland
51-60        Middle East Technical University    Turkey
51-60       University of Minnesota    US
51-60        University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill    US
51-60        The Ohio State University    US
51-60            Osaka University    Japan
51-60        Pennsylvania State University    US
51-60        University of California, Santa Barbara    US
51-60        National Taiwan University    Taiwan
61-70        The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology    Hong Kong
61-70        Karolinska Institute    Sweden
61-70            King's College London    UK
61-70       Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology    Korea, Republic Of
61-70            Leiden University    Netherlands
61-70        University of São Paolo    Brazil
61-70        University of Southern California    US
61-70        Technische Universität München    Germany
61-70        Tohoku University    Japan
61-70            Tokyo Institute of Technology    Japan
71-80        Hebrew University of Jerusalem    Israel
71-80        Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin    Germany
71-80        Katholieke Universiteit Leuven    Belgium
71-80         Michigan State University    US
71-80            Nanyang Technological University    Singapore
71-80        Université Paris-Sorbonne    France
71-80        University of Pittsburgh    US
71-80        The University of Queensland Australia    Australia
71-80        Universität Heidelberg    Germany
81-90        University of Amsterdam    Netherlands
81-90        Boston University    US
81-90        Brown University    US
81-90        The Chinese University of Hong Kong    Hong Kong
81-90        École Polytechnique    France
81-90       University of Florida    US
81-90        The University of New South Wales    Australia
81-90        Université Pierre et Marie Curie    France
81-90        Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey    US
81-90        Utrecht University    Netherlands
81-90        Washington University in St Louis    US
91-100    University of Bristol    UK
91-100    Freie Universität Berlin    Germany
91-100    Lund University    Sweden
91-100    University of Maryland, College Park    US
91-100    Monash University    Australia
91-100   Université Paris-Sud    France
91-100    Texas A&M University    US
91-100    Uppsala University    Sweden
91-100    Wageningen University and Research Center

I was pleased to see my alma mater in the list

[Talk Talk]

I was pleased to see my alma mater in the list

Peking University?

[Reg Smeeton]

Peking University?

Sadly not...although it's good to see they still use the English name.

About 70% of those listed are or were in part of the British Empire...

[ron dodgers]

University of Fitbirds-Bellbottoms

[Pax Romana]

So if you sign a legal contract stating you pay in x and they pay in y and then y decide to change the ratios you just accept it? Fuck that.

You haven't done.  Nobody has a contract guaranteeing their pension contributions for future years.  It's a non-contracted benefit.  That's why employers can change them going forward.  Your rights for the previous years where you paid in x and they paid in y (or guaranteed y benefits on a final salary scheme) remain untouched.

Once employers finally started doing the sums and realised that pension contributions were nowhere near enough to pay for the benefits guaranteed under a final salary scheme virtually every private employee backed out of them going forward.  Public sector employees have to pay more but still significantly less than what is now recognised as the true cost of those pensions.  Not brilliant but better than their private sector counter-parts.

[ron dodgers]

my pension is pretty gosh darned good so I'm taking it early and becoming a drunk - Nationwide's been a good employer I think they stick in about 21% at the moment to my 7%

[Reg Smeeton]

my pension is pretty gosh darned good so I'm taking it early and becoming a drunk - Nationwide's been a good employer I think they stick in about 21% at the moment to my 7%

A wise move, Nationwide's money will be recycled back into the brewing industry, help create jobs for Eastern European bar maids, and free up a space for a youngster who needs employment.