Madeline McCann

[Frigby Daser]

Whilst I've no interest in getting into a debate about parenting skills, or the fact most people on here seem to have accumulated more evidence than the British and Portuguese police combined, saying that they went down the pub is a bit misleading.
The bar at the complex they were staying in in Luz was across the (small) pool from their apartment. The place was, and still is, completely enclosed. It isn't as far off leaving the kids upstairs whilst you're in the garden as some make out.

That said, I entirely agree that if they were uneducated, the media portrayal would be different. Equally, the fact they are educated doesn't make them guilty.

[DMR]

I actually quite fancy the mum

At the beginning definitely.

Has not aged well.

[Peter Gibbons]

That said, I entirely agree that if they were uneducated, the media portrayal would be different. Equally, the fact they are educated doesn't make them guilty.

Not entirely cut and dry.  That dreadful case in Machllullghlellll... in Wales, the mum seemed pretty lower class (council house I believe?) let her young child out to play in the street under no supervision, child murdered.  Don't hear many calling for her head.  Is it that we know she didn't do it is enough to allow our sympathy to override our dissatisfaction with her parenting skills - whereas we don't know the McCanns didn't do it, so we are happy to piss and moan about their parenting skills?

[walcot red]

I'm not trying to troll here but as morbid as this sounds I wish they had found/find her body. So the parents can start to move on. It must be a living hell to not know if your child is dead or alive.

[Notts red]

Whilst I've no interest in getting into a debate about parenting skills, or the fact most people on here seem to have accumulated more evidence than the British and Portuguese police combined, saying went down the pub is a bit misleading.
The bar at the complex they were staying in in Luz was across the (small) pool from their apartment. The place was, and still is, completely enclosed. It isn't as far off leaving the kids upstairs whilst you're in the garden as some make out.

That said, I entirely agree that if they were uneducated, the media portrayal would be different. Equally, the fact they are educated doesn't make them guilty.

Pub/tapas bar is neither here nor there. Still Can't understand how anyone could leave young children alone where they could neither be seen or heard by their parents. Apparently the pool is close to the bar but the McCanns would of had to exit the complex through a security gate, walk up the road to access the rear of their apartment and further up the road and around the corner to access the front of their apartment both of which had 3ft gates which members of the public walk past.

[Fred Elliot]

the mum seemed pretty lower class (council house I believe?)

Fucking hell

[mystical_goat]

The abduction of a child

The idea that you could take a child and raise them without anyone noticing this sudden high-profile arrival, keep them from communicating with anyone about their past, or prevent their inevitable desire in the future to find and contact their actual parents, is absurd. Only if they are kept separate from all other humans would that plan work. And if someone wanted a kid that badly, but couldn't have one of their own, I'd imagine they'd adopt. Presumably, if she was taken to order, the operation would have cost a shitload of money, which could have been used to obtain another (legitimate) child without causing such a shitstorm.

The Portugese Police have bollocksed the investigation up; around 20 different people visited the McCann's apartment before it was sealed off, therefore massively limiting the validity of forensics. Funny though that they've not found any fingerprints, or hair fibres, or skin cells to indicate that anyone else entered the apartment.

I also don't understand why, if you are going to leave your kids, and go to the trouble of specifically booking a table that overlooks your apartment - presumably because you're concerned about their safety - you wouldn't lock the patio doors right next to them that lead onto a public road. Too contradictory and dumb to be true.

One of the McCann's party supposedly saw the abductor carrying a girl matching Madeline's description - and did absolutely nothing about it at the time (go and check if it is her? shout? run after him? mention it to the parents when you get back to the restaurant?) except report it when they had declared her missing.

There's a lot of weird shit going on in this story, which tells me that they killed her and have done their best to cover it up.

[jonny72]

Pub/tapas bar is neither here nor there. Still Can't understand how anyone could leave young children alone where they could neither be seen or heard by their parents. Apparently the pool is close to the bar but the McCanns would of had to exit the complex through a security gate, walk up the road to access the rear of their apartment and further up the road and around the corner to access the front of their apartment both of which had 3ft gates which members of the public walk past.

It used to be common practice to leave children and even babies alone whilst on holiday. At Butlins for example, as recently as the 70's they had systems in place to inform parents if their left alone baby was crying (writing the chalet number on a board for example).

So what has changed? I'm not convinced more offences agains children are committed nowadays, given what went on in the church and with media personalities for example in the past. I think they're given more media coverage and more are reported though.

Whilst I wouldn't condone for one moment leaving children alone, I'm really not convinced they are at any more risk than they were 40 years ago when doing so was viewed as acceptable. Which again leaves me wondering what has really changed?

[Peter Gibbons]

Fucking hell

Sorry, was that un-PC terminology?  Would you prefer "Lower socio-economic standing" or "monetarily disadvantaged"?  You know what I meant.  

[Fred Elliot]

Sorry, was that un-PC terminology?  Would you prefer "Lower socio-economic standing" or "monetarily disadvantaged"?  You know what I meant.  

No I didn't

Care to explain ?

[Peter Gibbons]

No I didn't

Care to explain ?

Well, there was much debate above (re-read the last few pages of you wish) that the McCanns were being "let off the hook" because they are higher class (sorry, "fortunate in their past fiscal performance") and I was merely pointing out the converse, that a person of lower class (there, I said it again) was equally "let off the hook" in broadly similar circumstances. I'm not judging one or the other, simply pointing out it is untrue (IMO) that the McCanns social standing impacts upon their portrayal in the media to any great degree.

I don't know if you deliberately missed my whole point or I just didn't explain myself very well (probably the latter, I accept).

[bobby barnes jink]

You must be fucking kidding!

I think you misinterpreted me. I am fairly ambivalent towards the parents to be honest but I do have empathy for the child. The shit that she must have had to go through on that and subsequent days is fairly unbearable to think about.

[Fred Elliot]

It was more your inference that council house tenants = lower class that pissed me off in all honesty

[Peter Gibbons]

It was more your inference that council house tenants = lower class that pissed me off in all honesty

Well, I don't really understand that.  I don't think I would be breaking new ground to suggest there is a level of correlation between instance of social housing and position in class hierarchy. 

[Notts red]

It used to be common practice to leave children and even babies alone whilst on holiday. At Butlins for example, as recently as the 70's they had systems in place to inform parents if their left alone baby was crying (writing the chalet number on a board for example).

So what has changed? I'm not convinced more offences agains children are committed nowadays, given what went on in the church and with media personalities for example in the past. I think they're given more media coverage and more are reported though.

Whilst I wouldn't condone for one moment leaving children alone, I'm really not convinced they are at any more risk than they were 40 years ago when doing so was viewed as acceptable. Which again leaves me wondering what has really changed?

For sure they won't of been the 1st or will be the last children to be left alone by their parents. Personally never left our kids alone when they were toddlers and can't understand parents doing it. Putting kids into daytime holiday crèches and leaving them alone in the evenings wouldn't be my idea of a family holiday, if A couple want time on their own surely it would be kinder and safer to leave the kids back at home with a family member or have a drink on the balcony whilst the kids are asleep in the next room.