Europe Debate: In or out?

[Samdy Gray]

Some suggest that being outside of what will be a strict tax regime could be attractive. Time will tell on that one.

Switzerland and Norway have done alright for themselves.

[jonny72]

Cameron has used the term national interest when he means City of London interest....the sticking point in negotiations was the need for greater financial regulation.  Something Cameron and to a lesser extent Clegg, couldn't allow.

I don't have a particular problem with this, it's what Tories do and have always done....look after their own interests first.

I'm guessing you haven't actually seen what the demands were that Cameron made;

- Any transfer of power from a national regulator to an EU regulator on financial matters could be vetoed
- Banks should face a higher capital requirement
- The European Banking Authority should remain in London
- The European Central Bank’s attempts to have euro-denominated transactions take place within the Eurozone, be refused

None of these were doing any real favours for the finance industry nor the City of London, bar protecting jobs. In fact the only one related to greater financial regulation was the banks capital requirement, and that was a negative as he wanted to be able to set a higher limit.

Though I still think Cameron got outmanoeuvred by France and Germany - it's worked out pretty well for them. Everyone has been talking about Cameron using the veto rather than focussing on the fact they still don't have a plan for sorting out the Euro mess and that their treaty (which is going to come in to force far too late to fix the mess) is basically the same rules they originally had for the Euro and promptly ignored.

[Melksham Red]

Since 2008 £289bn pounds of taxpayers money has been used to prop up banks.....

I don't have a particular problem with this, it's what Tories do and have always done....look after their own interests first.

Labour were in power until May 2010, so it would seem it's also what labour do.

[jonny72]

Labour were in power until May 2010, so it would seem it's also what labour do.

Under Labour the bank bail out package was at one point in excess of £800bn (potential liability).

Also under Labour, over £100m was spent on "city advisors" during the banking crisis.

Labour had their tongues wedged firmly up the arses of the city.

[iffy]

Switzerland and Norway have done alright for themselves.

Switzerland is a small country that takes nearly all the general rules set by the EU without any say in how they are set, in return for not taking a beating on their banking rules. Their currency is cripplingly expensive, even by swiss standards.

Norway is made of oil and no-one lives there.

This idea that the UK can be switzerland with nuclear weapons is a Little England fantasy.

Cameron walked straight into a trap set by Sarkozy, partly because he is in hock to a Eurosceptic party and partly because he is slapdash and doesn't prep enough for stuff like this.

Making the debate "Britain v the EU" is exactly what the French want because it pulls all the other EU countries together. Cameron is an idiot for falling for it.

[leefer]

Yet if he called a General Election tomorow he would piss it.......about time someone stood up for the lunacy that prevails in Europe......the majority of buisness people may want us to stay with Europe because of the obvious benefits trade etc....but the majority of other people are sick to the back teeth of it....and that is why they wont call a referendum because we all know what the outcome would be .
Cameron may have his many faults....but i like a bit of backbone.

[Summerof69]

The EU and the Euro are now a busted flush.

Did the meeting last weekend solve the Euro crisis? No. All they (the Germans and the French)wanted get more control of ALL EU countries budgets and to tax the hell out of City of London to pay more money in the coffers of the EU, despite them not being able to get their accounts signed for the last 15 years, and to send a message that they run Europe now. Cameron has put a spanner in that now. An EU without the UK has no credibility. I say get out now and save billions that can go towards the debt. The EU can go to hell as far as I am concerned.

[Ardiles]

Switzerland is a small country that takes nearly all the general rules set by the EU without any say in how they are set, in return for not taking a beating on their banking rules. Their currency is cripplingly expensive, even by swiss standards.

Norway is made of oil and no-one lives there.

This idea that the UK can be switzerland with nuclear weapons is a Little England fantasy.

Cameron walked straight into a trap set by Sarkozy, partly because he is in hock to a Eurosceptic party and partly because he is slapdash and doesn't prep enough for stuff like this.

Making the debate "Britain v the EU" is exactly what the French want because it pulls all the other EU countries together. Cameron is an idiot for falling for it.

Agree very much with this, especially the bold section.  I'm torn, to tell the truth.  A part of me is pleased that Cameron has drawn a line in the sand, because there did seem to be a relentless shift towards having more and more of our law made in Brussels.

But I also have a very strong sense that Sarkozy had Cameron exactly where he wanted him.  Sarkozy seems to have a very clear sense of France's place in the world, and what he would like that place in the world to be in future.  Pretty much everything he does in the context of the EU appears (to me, anyway) to be motivated by furthering French national interest...and, to an extent, that's the way it should be.  He wants to marginalise Britain in order to big up France's role within Europe and on the world stage - and time will tell whether he achieves that.

I aldo have a strong feeling that Cameron is no match for him.  Not in his league in terms of experience, diplomatically or intellectually.  Sarkozy and Merkel have been around the block.  They've seen it all before, have huge power bases and know who to call.  We have had an unfortunate tendency in this country for the last 20 years or so of electing politicians to high office before they are ready for it.  Cameron and Osbourne were in their 30s when they became the Tories' top two.  Other politicians who had it too young could include Duncan Smith, Hague, Clegg...some might also include Blair.  We need big beasts, heavy hitters, elder statesmen/women.  Not true in all cases, obviously...but I think the general point stands.

[Batch]

Cameron was screwed whatever he did. Not that I like the fucker.

Problem is Britain has the most to lose by agreeing with financial transactions tax. I can see the point the financial arseholes caused the issue in the first place and so should pay, but no PM could put Britain at such a disadvantage, especially against a backdrop of the  eurosceptic backbenchers.

Its probably a bad comparison, but in the last big depression in the 1930s the UK was crippled trying to protect the gold standard, it eventually couldn't. I wonder if the Euro countries will go the same way.

[deltaincline]

The reports about Cameron upsetting the French and Germans is just theatrical bollocks.

The City Of London (the square mile bit) is the most powerful financial area on the planet. It's one corner of the world powerhouse that looks after everything - religion, money and military force.

a short list of who's there;

Privately owned and controlled 'Bank of England'
Lloyds of London
The London Stock Exchange
Most British bank HQ's
The Branch offices of over 350 Foreign Banks
70 odd USA Banks
Newspaper and Publishing Monopolies
Headquarters for Worldwide Freemasonry
Headquarters for the worldwide money cartel known as 'THE CROWN'

Sarkozy, Merkel and the other fucking peasant nations that make up the joke that is the EU, are the ones being cut adrift here while the City protects and maintains it's position - like it's always done.

If I had any financial interests anywhere remotely related to - or tied to the Euro, I'd get the fuck out pronto, coz that currency is only going to go one way.

Thank yourself lucky if you're a UK resident, because once the Euro goes tits, things are going to get nasty on the continent.

[Phil_S]

Don't like him much, but I loved Farage's speech in the Euro "parliament"/ talking shop.

[Saxondale]

I think the Daily Mash has it right

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/everyone-still-pretending-they-know-what-they're-talking-about-201112114658/

[ghanimah]

Cameron was screwed whatever he did. Not that I like the fucker.

Problem is Britain has the most to lose by agreeing with financial transactions tax. I can see the point the financial arseholes caused the issue in the first place and so should pay, but no PM could put Britain at such a disadvantage, especially against a backdrop of the  eurosceptic backbenchers.

Its probably a bad comparison, but in the last big depression in the 1930s the UK was crippled trying to protect the gold standard, it eventually couldn't. I wonder if the Euro countries will go the same way.

I don't like the fucker either. Cameron though wasn't screwed because he did actually have a credible option - but he blew it because he failed to take it.

It's important to establish that there was no veto last week because the European Council meeting last week didn't allow for one and because there was no treaty on the table to actually veto. In this Cameron has...erm ...attempted to mislead. In essence you can't veto 'fuck all', as Jack Straw more eloquently pointed out:

"There was no draft treaty before the European Council last Thursday and Friday; there was a set of draft conclusions. Will the Prime Minister set out the paragraph numbers that he thinks would have damaged Britain’s interests had we agreed to them?"

However Cameron (if he were competent) did have the option of saying the European Council was not the right place for such discussions and instead called for an IGC where he would have had a real formal veto and that way have a realistic prospect of repatriating powers by threatening the nuclear option. But he didn't take that option - he decided to say no to a set of ' vague draft conclusions' and spin it deceptively as 'a veto'.

And we already have a separate veto on the financial transactions tax, again Cameron's excuses don't hold water

[Batch]

The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know

[Summerof69]

Whether or not there was a treaty last week, it looks like Britain wili NOT be the only one saying 'No'. It is seemingly likely that the parliaments of Sweden, Holland, Denmark and Finland are likely not to ratify it, and Ireland will need a referendum to get it passed...and we know what that normally means.

Even in France there is likely to be a change of heart, as France are due their Presidential election next year, and Sarkozy is odds on to get beat, with the favourite already quoting that he wants to re-negotiate the 'treaty'.

It's not over yet !!

At the end of the day, is the Eurozone still up shit creek?  You bet it is, and the politicians in the Eurozone do not know how to get out of it.