Europe Debate: In or out?

[china red]

In 50 years from now, China and India will be calling the shots with the USA still making itself heard, but not to the same extent.  The argument goes that Europe can only have a place at the top table if it unites and acts as one.
[/i]

No way it will be fifty years.  I'd say the next 5-20 years dependent on their ability to get oil.

[thedarkprince]

No way it will be fifty years.  I'd say the next 5-20 years dependent on their ability to get oil.

5-20 years for China, a little longer for India though. 

[janaage]

1. So that'll be why Germany are already (reportedly) printing Deutschmarks then?

2. The Euro can't continue in its current form. Powerhouses like Germany won't have countries like the PIIGs stiffling their growth for years to come.

3. Greece will default and they will be kicked out of the Euro.

1. Source? And having a contingency plan doesn't mean you want or will put that plan in place.
2. I didn't say the Euro would continue in it's current state - in terms of current users of the currency. So a couple of leavers wouldn't mean the end of the euro.
3. Yep agree, Greece at some stage will default.

I'd be surprised if Germany returned to the Deutschmark, as I expect they're quite happy with their economic blitzkreig of Europe.

[Reg Smeeton]

1. Source? And having a contingency plan doesn't mean you want or will put that plan in place.
2. I didn't say the Euro would continue in it's current state - in terms of current users of the currency. So a couple of leavers wouldn't mean the end of the euro.
3. Yep agree, Greece at some stage will default.

I'd be surprised if Germany returned to the Deutschmark, as I expect they're quite happy with their economic blitzkreig of Europe.

I see that Salmond wants to take Scotland into the Eurozone when they achieve the hoped for independence.

[janaage]

Good luck to him Reg, however, I don't think he'll get the 'total independence' he's after.

[Reg Smeeton]

Good luck to him Reg, however, I don't think he'll get the 'total independence' he's after.

Think it will happen, maybe not at this referendum..

[RobertT]

I have no issue with people wanting out on the basis of some sort of national pride style argument, and nothing against people wanting in for some sort of belief of a better economic future sometime.  It does irritate me slightly with people wanting some sort of best of both worlds and moaning how we were badly sold the idea.  If you vote on something so consititutionally important, surely you do some basic info finding before you vote yes?

The EEC was set-up with a goal of complete social and economic cohesion of participating states.  The current set-up of the EU is not even close to the end game, where we would have one central bank, one single foreign policy etc.

Personally, I'm not fussed either way to be honest.  I can see that the idea itself was a cracking one, it just missed the point that we struggle to stay at peace with each other in our own countires, let alone with ones who speak funny languages - that goes for all of us Europeans.

[Spencer_White]

In for me. This is finally our chance to have Europe on our own terms. Weve been proven right on the single currency. I think this will mean we get a 2 tier Europe, which is something we have always wanted. We could end up leading the EU countries not in the Eurozone. We do need to repatriate powers from Brussels, and try to cut down the size and bureacracy of that assembly.

The Eurozone will not be allowed to fail. Its value is holding up very well. A super powerful Deutschmark doesnt do Germany any favours because of its manufacturing exports. But one thing is clear, Germany dominates the Eurozone and calls all the shots now. I think the stress is starting to show for Sarkozy because he realises that France is becomming the junior partner, its a big shock for the French, but not for anyone else. Their standard of living has been inflated for years now based on their own output.

As for Salmond, he is a smug bastard who will lead Scotland to the same fate that Ireland is waking up to. Economic domination by the Germans.

[Summerof69]

I have said for a long time it's time to get out. The EU cannot even get it's accounts signed off due to fraud. In fact if the EU was a company, they would be shut down by now. I would refuse to pay any more money into the EU's coffers until they sort it out. It's been going on for 15 years and they've done fuck all about it.  The EU is now a club for failed politicians to join (Kinnock and Mandelson to name but two) to get a nice big fat pension on the publics purse expense.

I would've liked to remain but to get our powers back, but that is never going to happen as the EU will just laugh at us when we try to renegotiate. The only way they will take us seriously is a national vote of 'in or out', where the answer is out'. If that happens the EU is screwed, as we are one of the biggest economies in the world, and if we pull out of the EU, the EU will not have any credibility left.

[Samdy Gray]

1. Source? And having a contingency plan doesn't mean you want or will put that plan in place.

I'd be surprised if Germany returned to the Deutschmark, as I expect they're quite happy with their economic blitzkreig of Europe.

Can't remember exactly, think it was on the comments on Citywire or IFA Online a few weeks ago.

Of course, if it is true, it is just a preventative measure. I can't see Germany wanting to go back to the DM out of choice, it would just cause short term super-inflation and their exports would be fucked.

As it is, I think Greece will go back to the Drachma. They'll have to spend years devaluing the currency which will just fuel perpetual boom/bust cycles in the short term. It's certainly not going to be pretty for Greece, that's for sure.

But Greece won't be alone. Portugal/Ireland/Italy/Spain will all be facing the same situation.

I think the stress is starting to show for Sarkozy because he realises that France is becomming the junior partner, its a big shock for the French, but not for anyone else. Their standard of living has been inflated for years now based on their own output.

The only reason France met the Maastricht requirements was by sweeping a fuck load of debt under the carpet. They'd be just as fucked as Greece otherwise.

[jonny72]

I can see that the idea itself was a cracking one, it just missed the point that we struggle to stay at peace with each other in our own countires, let alone with ones who speak funny languages - that goes for all of us Europeans.

I'm all in favour of the EU. We have a local council and national government, what's wrong with an international ruling body above that? Even if we weren't in the EU it would have a massive impact on our lives, the same as various international bodies already do. Sure the EU isn't perfect but we've more chance of changing it from the inside than out.

Problem is that they fucked up with the expansion - they let far too many poorer countries join the EU too soon which has caused a complete mess as things start to equalise out, there is a limit to the number of these countries the richer ones can support. Similar with the Eurozone, far too many countries with vastly different economies.

I imagine they were trying to speed up the complete integration of Europe, instead they've set it back another 10-20 years.

[janaage]

Can't remember exactly, think it was on the comments on Citywire or IFA Online a few weeks ago.

Seems it was a comment made by Philippa Malmgren of Principalis.

‘I think they have already got the printing machines going and are bringing out the old deutschmarks they have left over from when the euro was introduced.’

Not the most reliable of sources that. All thoughts and rumours.

'I can't see Germany wanting to go back to the DM out of choice, it would just cause short term super-inflation and their exports would be fucked.' George Soros couldn't have put it better himself.

[Matchworn Shirts]

Raus aus dem Euro !
I am going to have to work until I die to save countries like Greece, who should never have been let into the EuroZone anyway

[jayohaitchenn]

Raus aus dem Euro !
I am going to have to work until I die to save countries like Greece, who should never have been let into the EuroZone anyway

Why not put them all in some kind of camp.

[Matchworn Shirts]

Why not put them all in some kind of camp.

Odd comment from a man whoses country 'invented' the concentration camp