Europe Debate: In or out?

[fatbasher]

FWIW as an ex council house working class kid with naff all pension and no country pile or multiple directorships to shout about, who has always worked hard and voted conservative, I can honestly state that if my MP votes with the government tomorrow he'll be two votes down at the next GE, cos my wife will veto them as well.

And for that reason we want out.

Discuss....

[Samdy Gray]

A year ago this thread would've got to 20 pages.

I'm guessing it won't get much past three now.

[leefer]

What is the euro worth today?...enough said.
Lets face it at the alarming rate it is falling compared to the pound and other currencies it will soon be worthless.
To be honest politicians in other countries deciding the fate of laws etc in other nations is just so weird and clearly unfair.

The plus points are massively outnumbered by the negative points.

[fatbasher]

Germany lost the war but they intend to win the peace, the French as usual will do everything the Germans tell them to do. The only reason Europe wants, sorry, tolerates the UK is because of our money, they'd be even more fucked without us.

It's a double edged sword for them. If we joined the euro they'd be tied as we'd have as much as a say as anyone, if not more. Outside the Euro they can pretty much exclude us to a point but can't rely on any money directly only via the IMF and that means the Germans are now bailing out most of the eurozone countries and will extract a high price from euro members for the privilege.  

Heath the prick sold us a pup, should have listed and learned from to that two faced cunt DeGaulle. Thatcher clawed some back. Blair gave it away again and that boss eyed scoTtish twat sold us down the river. Time to stand up and be counted Cameron. Fuck Europe there is a whole world out there to trade with.  

[sonicyouth]

what the fuck has this got to do with football?

I was hoping for a passionate debate on the worth of the Champions League.

[chalkies_shorts]

Out. Definitely out. As for a whole world to trade with, well we fucked that one when we joined the EEC as it was then. We totally fucked over our Commonwealth partners who found other trading partners - they may have long memories.
The EU is one serious fuck up - a live experiment that has gone very wrong but a little bit like Iraq there was no plan B or no exit strategy. We've just gone further and further into the mire by stealth.
Politicians are frightened of giving us an in or out vote because it will be close. In the event of a no, they'll just have a further vote until they get a yes like in Ireland.
Basically the EU are the political equivalent of Diamandis - complete cunts who think they can do what they want to who they want. 

[london_red]

Out, no reason not to stay out now. Fannied about over Greece for too long and now problems are going to spread, the whole of Europe is going to have some big problems to deal with soon.

Leefer you say the euro losing its value now but wait until the Germans pull out and reintroduce the deutschmark, euro will go bye bye then.

[Bennett]

bring back the anglo italian cup!

[janaage]

What is the euro worth today?...enough said.
Lets face it at the alarming rate it is falling compared to the pound and other currencies it will soon be worthless.

Sorry Leefer can you expand a little here?  As I'd say the euro's still doing fine, value wise, current sterling to euro exchange is 1.16, whereas a few years ago it was around the 1.5 mark.  After a little investigating the Euro in the last year has lost 1.88% v GBP, hardly free fall.

Free fall would be the pounds performance v Aussie dollar, who's made 59% on our currency in the last 3 three years.

So is it the Euro in a state, or is it the pound that's looking a little shakey on it's feet?

Also we speak to a fair few fund houses and most recent comment from them suggest the Germans will 'not allow' the euro to fail and 'will never leave' the currency.  Greece will 'more than likely' default, and eventually come back a stronger economy for it, but there is hope that other euro-countries won't need to follow suit.

All opinion obviously.

[Samdy Gray]

Also we speak to a fair few fund houses and most recent comment from them suggest the Germans will 'not allow' the euro to fail and 'will never leave' the currency.  Greece will 'more than likely' default, and eventually come back a stronger economy for it, but there is hope that other euro-countries won't need to follow suit.

All opinion obviously.

So that'll be why Germany are already (reportedly) printing Deutschmarks then? The Euro can't continue in its current form. Powerhouses like Germany won't have countries like the PIIGs stiffling their growth for years to come.

Greece will default and they will be kicked out of the Euro. They're just being drip fed enough from the IMF at the moment to get them by until the French and Germans can recapitalise their banks.

[Phil_S]

Agree with fatbasher & Chalkies Shorts.
Our problem is that the MP's do NOT represent the opinions of the people on this one. Cameron is tied down by Clegg, who would want full US of Europe. Or at least that is the excuse he uses.
Basically we were lied to in the 70's when asked do we want a common market with free trade.

[ghanimah]

Also we speak to a fair few fund houses and most recent comment from them suggest the Germans will 'not allow' the euro to fail and 'will never leave' the currency.  Greece will 'more than likely' default, and eventually come back a stronger economy for it, but there is hope that other euro-countries won't need to follow suit.

All opinion obviously.

I would query that. I agree that the political will to prop up the economic equivalent of the titanic should not be underestimated, but the reality is the Euro cannot survive in its current form.

In truth there are only two, rather stark, options. Either the 17 Eurozone countries agree to full fiscal and political union with fiscal transfers between rich and poorer nations or, there has to be an orderly breakup of the Euro, logically between the likes of Germany and Greece.

The first choice is a non starter, not least because of Germany. The German Constitutional Court has ruled it out, saying it is a fundamental breach of German Basic Law, besides Merkel would never get it past her Parliament let alone the German taxpayer.

The second choice is the most logical, but the EU under no circumstances will contemplate that, not least because the currency is so fundamental to the EU's objective of full political union.

So, because those two options are unpalatable for various reasons, we're getting the usual sticking plaster - in effect trying to magic a third solution that doesn't exist. And the outcome of that will be a chaotic collapse of the currency.

Despite what Germany, France et al want, the reality is the Euro cannot continue as it in its current makeup.

[thedarkprince]

So that'll be why Germany are already (reportedly) printing Deutschmarks then?

A quick Google of that shows reports of the printing of Deutsche Marks back to 2009.  I smell bullshit.

[Ardiles]

The desire held by some on mainland Europe and here in the UK for further integration beyond the point of a single trading relationship (which is what we signed up for) is driven, to a large extent, by the realisation that the tectonic plates are shifting.  In 50 years from now, China and India will be calling the shots with the USA still making itself heard, but not to the same extent.  The argument goes that Europe can only have a place at the top table if it unites and acts as one.

The thing is, in the UK we've had 50+ years now to get used to the idea that we're no longer at the top table.  And personally, it's not something that keeps me up at night.  I can see some benefit to being a member of the Euro-club, but these are now increasingly outweighed by the disadvantages and costs.

On balance, I'm not sure I wish to see a complete withdrawal from political Europe - but I would be in favour of a significant repatriation of powers to Westminster.  As an anecdote, I found my heckles rising a few weeks ago when a European Parliament anti-smoking appeared in the morning paper.  It read something like 'Marcel is from Luxembourg.  Annie is from the UK.  They have both kicked the habit in the last 12 months, and so can you.'  I found myself thinking 'That's great, but what the fuck has this got to do with the EU?  My local healthcare trust should be dealing with issues like this.'

[limpwrist]

Back in the day i voted yes to the COMMON MARKET. As was said earlier, we were sold a pup.
If we had that vote again. I'd vote get out quick.
I have no qualms about being a minor player in this world.