Gartside.

[Summerof69]

Gartside is a self serving tosser of the highest order. He's obviously got short memories as less than 20 years ago they were in division 4 .

I wish Bolton to be relegated this season and next and then Gartside can then go and screw himself.

[pauld]

I really don't see the distribution of TV money being a problem .... The real problem is that far too many clubs spend money they don't have - through incompetence, through trying to compete with the big clubs and through trying to win promotion.

Right, that is the problem - the money is distributed in very top-heavy fashion so that teams that get promoted to the Prem or even the Championship often have to spend beyond their means to compete or resign themselves to being yo-yo clubs like West Brom. The massive financial gap between:
1) The European places vs the rest of the Premiership
2) The Premiership vs the Championship
3) The Championship vs League 1

are all substantial gulfs which are anti-competitive in terms of football as a sporting (rather than financial) competition.

As regards Gartside's proposal; Celtic and Rangers will never play in the English league pyramid and promotion and relegation are here to stay. In short, he's got fuck all chance of getting the support he needs.

Sadly, it seems he is gaining ground among chairman of similar clubs who are terrified of what happens if they fall out of the Prem or who currently worry about what would happen if they were promoted to it. The fall of Leeds, Norwich and Charlton has galvanised a lot of also-ran 1st/2nd tier clubs to say "This must never be allowed to happen to us". And it's what their chairmen (and the big clubs) think that will matter, not what we think.

Even if we were going to be one of the lucky clubs locked in to the Premier League and still say over my dead body and I'm pretty sure 99.99% of other fans would say the same.

Absolutely 100% agree with you. Sadly none of the people who'll be taking a decision on this give a flying fuck what fans think.

[Reg Smeeton]

 I believe Gartside needs 14 votes to make this happen...with no mandate from anyone.

 Just look at the Prem table there are easily 13 clubs who could feasibly see themselves sliding down in the next few years, and probably only 7 who consider themselves fire proof, so it is likely to be close.

[jonny72]

Right, that is the problem - the money is distributed in very top-heavy fashion so that teams that get promoted to the Prem or even the Championship often have to spend beyond their means to compete or resign themselves to being yo-yo clubs like West Brom.

What is wrong with being like West Brom? If more clubs were like West Brom we wouldn't be in the mess we are at present. I don't have any facts but I've always had the impression that West Brom only spend what they can afford and are gradually building for the future. One day West Brom will break in to the Premier League for good and will be up there challenging for Europe.

Besides, what would be the point in more money going to the Football League clubs? They'd just all piss it up against the wall as they do at present. I think there is a far stronger argument for a bigger slice going to the FL if the clubs got their finances in order.

And another besides.... the difference in TV income between the top and bottom teams in the Premier League is only about £10m (maybe £20m at most) which is equal to buying one player and paying his wages for a season. The real difference for the big teams are all their other income streams - sponsorship, ticket sales, merchandise and so on and there's nothing you can do about redistributing that is there.

[tans]

One day West Brom will break in to the Premier League for good and will be up there challenging for Europe.

Sorry.

I dont know why, but that sentence made me burst out laughing.

Youve cheered me up no end

[nochee]

With regards to Celic and Rangers joing the prem, i thought Scotland wanted fuck all to do with England and wanted complete independance. Apart from the best bits, obviously.

[Summerof69]

the difference in TV income between the top and bottom teams in the Premier League is only about £10m (maybe £20m at most) which is equal to buying one player and paying his wages for a season. The real difference for the big teams are all their other income streams - sponsorship, ticket sales, merchandise and so on and there's nothing you can do about redistributing that is there.

You're not far out in the difference in TV money of £20m :

http://soccerlens.com/20072008-premier-league-tv-revenue/7415/

But since there is also prize money of £761k per place, it does mean the top team also getting £14.5m more than the bottom team :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/5361321/Premier-League-The-money-table.html

And when you consider that the 'top 4' also get millions from the Chumpions League, which is estimated to be £20m each (minimum), if you add all that together, the top team would get about £55m extra...and that doesn't take into consideration of off field money.

[pauld]

What is wrong with being like West Brom? If more clubs were like West Brom we wouldn't be in the mess we are at present. I don't have any facts but I've always had the impression that West Brom only spend what they can afford and are gradually building for the future. One day West Brom will break in to the Premier League for good and will be up there challenging for Europe.

Nothing wrong whatever in being like West Brom and I totally agree that more clubs should follow their lead. I was just saying that that's why clubs overspend - because they find themselves in a league on (sporting) merit, then find they can't compete financially.

Besides, what would be the point in more money going to the Football League clubs? They'd just all piss it up against the wall as they do at present. I think there is a far stronger argument for a bigger slice going to the FL if the clubs got their finances in order.

Again, I wouldn't disagree. Although I don't think FL clubs have a monopoly on pissing vast scads of money up the wall - Newcastle's excesses in the Prem spring to mind and this season to take just one example, Hull have a £40m wage bill.

It's not so much I'd like to see more money going to FL clubs as I'd like to see the massive differential between the Leagues reduced. Personally, I think there's far too much money in the game and it's not been to the benefit of the game itself at all - some players, their braindead hangers-on and parasite agents have done very nicely out of it.

the difference in TV income between the top and bottom teams in the Premier League is only about £10m (maybe £20m at most)

As summerof69 said below, actually the differential is far greater than that. And in any case, I was more focused on the differential between Prem->Championship->League One. Which is what clubs break themselves on.

there's nothing you can do about redistributing that is there.

I don't want to redistribute the money, so much as reduce the vast inequalities which artificially distort what should be a sporting competition. And has done much to ruin the modern game.

[jonny72]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8353937.stm

Apparently the plans are to be discussed on Thursday and now say; a two tier Premier League with between 36 and 40 teams, promotion and relegation to the Football League (no mention of conditions) and Celtic and Rangers to go straight in to Premier League 2.

Forgetting the promotion / relegation issue for the moment, the plans would result in between 4 and 10 teams being forced out of the Football League in to the Conference. Why should teams lose their place just so Premier League teams can make more money and so two Scottish teams can join our league pyramid? How much compensation would the Premier League pay out to clubs affected by the change (including those relegated as all leagues are re-arranged)?

Celtic and Rangers joining our league is a joke but if by some miracle it does happen, why shouldn't they enter the pyramid at non-league level the same as every other club has to?

[Ardiles]

Worrying thing here is all the press comment relates to the headline catching issue of the Old Firm moving to the English league.  The restricted promotion/relegation issue between the EPL 2 and what would be left of the Football League is in danger of getting in through the back door and, let's face it, this is what is motivating Gartside.  As Bolton chairman, he is doing his level best to ensure that Bolton never face the prospect of 3rd tier football.  The rest is window dressing.  He is shafting the lower leagues and hoping everyone will look the other way while he does it.

[pauld]

As Ardiles says, the BBC report may not mention the conditions around promotion/relegation but they are there in the proposal, and basically designed to restrict entry to the top two tiers to "big clubs". If these proposals go through they may as well abandon all pretence at a league structure based on sporting competition. Instead the PL chairmen can all sit down at the start of each season and compare balance sheets and just base the League table on that.

[tans]

If Bolton weren't so shit then this cunt wouldnt even thought of the idea.

If it ever happens, this wanker will have ruined football and i hope he carks it.

[Ardiles]

If it does come to a restriction on the ability of lower league clubs to win promotion, I could see the government getting involved here.  I don't think there will be many people prepared to sit by and watch the fabric of the most popular sport in the country dismantled for the benefit of Bolton Wanderers Football Club.

[pauld]

I don't think there will be many people prepared to sit by and watch the fabric of the most popular sport in the country dismantled for the benefit of Bolton Wanderers Football Club.

Sadly I don't think many people will notice - the armchair fans and media will all be busy getting themselves over-excited by the "Scottish distraction". And it's not just Bolton - all the mid-tier Prem clubs and "Big Championship clubs" chairmen will be queuing up to justify this if they think it'll save them from following Leeds, Southampton, Norwich down to a place they and most of the media seem to think they should never have ended up. Except for the small matter of not having got the results good enough to keep them up of course

[flammableBen]

Don't UEFA and FIFA really frown upon governments getting involved in the running of sport leagues? I thought greece got in trouble for something like that a few years ago?