Hillsborough Memorial

[Rich Pullen]

So by 'justice' do you/they mean an apology or prosecuation or both?

[REDBUCK]

The football authorities should have taken more responsibiliity in the preceeding decade in what was happenning to grounds and the effect it had on ordinary supporters. In doing nothing to solve the problem of hooliganism, other than allowing the Police to move match days supports around like animals and then caging them in with fences and barbed wire - Ken Bates at Chelsea, Sports Ministers gaining favour with voters. etc.

Hooligan Fans of that period also take the blame by running riot, causing a very agressive government and Police to react the way it did.

All of these factors just componded the events and errors that ocurred on the day, delayed traffic, openning the gate to ease the crush outside, not shutting off the central tunnel, beleving it was crowd trouble, not letting in more ambalances into the ground etc etc, led to innocent pewople losing their lives.

[thepeoplesgame]

So by 'justice' do you/they mean an apology or prosecuation or both?

Either would be a step in the right direction. If I was directly involved, I'd probably want both.

[Summerof69]

Either would be a step in the right direction. If I was directly involved, I'd probably want both.

They want a public enquiry, but I think it is a bit too late for that, as proved by how long it's taken in the Bloody Sunday inquiry (11 years and counting and costing £185m), all that happens is lawyers get rich. A public enquiry should've happened within a year of it happening, whilst it was all relative fresh in peoples minds.

[Posh Red]

Were the Liverpool fans to blame for the tragedy......Definitely not
Were they a contributing factor, of course.   
This would not have happened if they hadn't have all been there trying to get in. But lets be fair The Liverpool fans that were outside trying to get in were not acting as hooligans, or in fact in any manner differently than any other fans would have been acting

The thing is the Police & the FA had a responsibility to ensure the safety of all supporters at the game, and in this respect they FAILED, and as a result they should have owned up and taken responsibility for their actions.

One of the main reasons that the campaign is still on-going is that the authorities spectacularly failed to do this, and in fact tried (as they always do) to hide the truth & deflect the blame.

As has already been pointed out, the Police & Government at the time were always happy to point the finger of blame at Football fans, that's the way it was.
The problem for them in this case was that everyone could patently see that the fans were not ultimately responsible.

[sheepshagger]

Were the fans even a contributing factor though - or is this police bollocks to try and hide their inept handling of a fairly "standard" situation (before the crush obviously)

The HSE when putting together their report after say that at MAXIMUM there were 10,124 people in that enclosure - the tickets sold were 10,100

So the suggestion that "hundred's if not thousand's of ticketless Liverpool fans turned up" is utter bollocks - another police tactic to throw the blame against the innocent fans.

The fact is that the police fucked up - purely and simply.  They let too many fans in the middle section, didn't close off the gate and therefore caused the problem !

John Motson was commentating that day on the beeb, and he even mentions the fact that the outside enclosures looked like they were far less crowded and actually had space.....

The reason the families want justice is because NO-ONE has ever even lost a days pay, let alone their jobs over this while they have lost loved ones....

They also believe, and have independant witness statements to back it up - that at 3.15pm a good number of the 96 were still alive, and with fairly simple medical aid would have lived.  This has NEVER been acknowledged by the authorities............

[jonny72]

I'd always thought there was a large number of Liverpool fans without tickets that forced entry and that they played a very major role in what happened. But having read up on it recently this wasn't the case, even if there were fans without tickets it was a small number and they had no real effect.

It was a very long chain of events, starting a long time before that day, which led to what happened. The final fatal mistake being the failure of the police and stewards to close the two central pens and direct fans to the emptier side pens instead. If they'd have got that right there would have still been injuries and possibly fatalities but not on the scale that there was.

Not sure you can really ever attribute the blame to one person or party though.

[Melksham Red]

Not sure you can really ever attribute the blame to one person or party though.

Which is basically my point. There is no single party to blame and all who did help cause this tragedy should have the good grace to take some responsibilty.

[Ralphy]

I still remember asking my dad as a 7 year old boy if it was safe to go to Swindon anymore.

In those days we sat in the North Stand (Arkells Stand) and the Townend and Shrivenham Road was all terraced.

When I look at the footage on youtube of the actual day it's pretty damm scary how many people were packed on that terrace.

Out of interest, what did the Leppings Lane end hold back then? Must be about 15,000?

[Ralphy]

Just had a look on wikipedia.

It used to hold 22,000 !

It is now 11,000 all seated.

[sheepshagger]

Ralphy - it held 10,100

The Health and safety Exec. state at the highest level there were 10,124 people in the end.....

So the police are saying 24 "ticketless" people caused this

Melksham - I agree with you that ALL that caused this tragedy should hold their hands up and hang their heads in shame - however the Liverpool fans were NOT in any way responsible for this and can hold their heads high with some dignity.....

[thepeoplesgame]

Which is basically my point. There is no single party to blame and all who did help cause this tragedy should have the good grace to take some responsibilty.

No, this was your point:

"Every one of those Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and forced their way into the ground has as much blood on their hands as the Old Bill and emergency services."

And any study of the facts of the day or the resulting Taylor Report would disprove it. No fans forced their way into the ground, the police opened the fucking gate! They even admitted it eventually, but not until their lies had taken hold, evidently.

Justice for the 96.

[sheepshagger]

Just had a look on wikipedia.

It used to hold 22,000 !

It is now 11,000 all seated.

Ralphy the 22,000 included the massive seated area above the terrace - the terrace itself held 10,100

[Ralphy]

Thats still an immense terrace.

[Melksham Red]

No, this was your point:

"Every one of those Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and forced their way into the ground has as much blood on their hands as the Old Bill and emergency services."

And any study of the facts of the day or the resulting Taylor Report would disprove it. No fans forced their way into the ground, the police opened the fucking gate! They even admitted it eventually, but not until their lies had taken hold, evidently.

Justice for the 96.

I'm not such a cunt as to not admit when i'm wrong. So, I stand corrected.