Israel, getting away with it again...

[Don Rogers Shop]

Can't they hide in the underground bunkers they have made or maybe just stop launching rockets.

[pauld]

I'm always amused by this Israeli "human shield" argument.

I'm not sure what the Israeli's, or anybody else for that matter expects Hamas to do

Stop firing rockets into civilian areas, stop sending suicide bombers onto buses, restaurants, discos, stop sending raiding parties over the border to slit the throats of little children (see I can do emotive too). Just an idea like.

[janaage]

You may want to start being disgusted then and perhaps a little less smug about "the incapable yanks" versus our own troops who've also been responsible for civilian deaths in Afghanistan. To pick just a couple of headlines from just the first page of a brief googling:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/26/military.afghanistan1
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/women-and-children-killed-in-afghanistan-by-british-air-strike-794994.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/2576271/British-troops-kill-four-Afghan-civilians-in-Helmand-province.html

Sorry, but this idea that you can have "clean" wars that don't kill civilians is just bullshit, particularly in the kind of assymetric warfare that fighting terrorists/insurgents/militants who necessarily blend in with the civilian population. And the British smugness that our lads manage to surgically take out only the bad hats while those crazy cowboy yanks blow the shit out of all and sundry bears equally little examination. And no I'm not having a go at the British troops serving in Afghanistan - I'm damn sure they take every step they can to avoid civilian casualties, but the fact is, you can't conduct this kind of war without civilian casualties and deaths. This idea of "clean wars" is, I'm afraid, one more piece of bullshit the politicians dreamed up so we wouldn't feel so bad about cheering on our boys.

Even if you were right in the "ooh, don't worry it's only the cowboy yanks, our hands are clean" I think you'll find most Afghan civilians don't differentiate between British carelessness, NATO carelessness or US carelessness when it comes to killing civilians - they just see Western forces killing their kids, wives etc.

So unless you're arguing for total pacifism (and fair play if you are - not a view I agree with, but I'll respect it), I think you're being a bit smug tbh in dismissing Phil's comparison with Afghanistan. In fact, you could argue the Israelis have considerably more justification in chasing down terrorists/insurgents/militants right on their borders than we do chasing them down half a world away.

Paul coming from a family with military connections I'm well aware that on occasions our own forces have killed innocent cilivians as has most armys (if not all) in the world.  However I'm not personally aware of a sustained attack on residential areas via our air force as seen in the middle east.  Think it's very easy to say "oh that situation is just like "x", when I don't think it is".  Not being smug about anything, don't really think this is the kind of topic to be smug.

Watching the news each day, unlike Ironside I don't rely upon the BBC for updates, prefer the far superior (imo) Al Jazeera Eng, who despite reputation have very good analysis of the situation, before work today they had about 20 mins of Israeli government ministers on there explaining their side of things.  It's a sad but fascinating subject I reckon.

As I've said before though, I'm not pro either side, just dismayed at seeing dead children being carried away by their parents.  Would be the same if the Iranians decided enough was enough and bombed the residential Israeli areas, it'd be wrong.

[Lumps]

Stop firing rockets into civilian areas, stop sending suicide bombers onto buses, restaurants, discos, stop sending raiding parties over the border to slit the throats of little children (see I can do emotive too). Just an idea like.

So basically just sit back in your over-crowded ghetto with no operational infrastructure and rot. Accept that your life and those of over 1.5m others are going to be living in ruined cities and refugee camps surviving on food aid for the indefinate future. I can sort of understand why young Palestinians might think "fuck that I'd rather die fighting".

It's fucking easy for people sitting in comfortable homes to wonder why Hamas broke the ceasefire after about six months and started lobbing rockets in earnest again. But the situation was getting increasingly desperate in Gaza. Despite the ceasefire having been largley respected for that 6 months the Israeli blockade of Gaza was maintained, the bare minimum of food aid being allowed through, and virtually nothing was allowed in that would have let the authority start rebuilding the local infrastucture. And the worlds attention had shifted to the financial crisis, Afghanistan, Iraq and whatever else.

[janaage]

It's funny that people who defend the Palestinians are accused of being anti Israel, when it seems to me a few people on here are, by the looks of it, just anti-Palestinian.

I can't understand how people can defend the killing of little'uns, no matter their nationality.  I wasn't being childish yesterday in response to DRS' post, i was just making a point that's all.  Even the women (and some of the blokes) that are being killed, if they're anything like some of the women (and some of the blokes) in this country they probably don't give a monkeys about politics, so the fact they live in the Gaza strip they deserve to die or live in terrible conditions due to the ruling political party?  That doesn't make sense to me.

[Sussex]

Religion and politics, a guaranteed 10 pager on the TEF!

Yes I do have a view on this topic but can't be arsed to contribute. Man flu sucks.

Where's ironside?

[Lumps]

I don't want people to think that I've got any time for the Hamas leadership or that of the Israeli's. My sympathies are entirely with the people of the region on both sides who are living in such appalling circumstances. However, whilst I'm as sympathetic to the Israeli families that have lost loved ones as I am for the Palestinians, it has to be faced that there are a lot less of them, and I'm beginning to get annoyed by the parade of Israeli civilians appearing on screen who constantly represent themselves as the victims in this whole situation. Yes, the populations living near the Armistice line most live in fear a lot of the time, but the teenage tourists from Tel Aviv that are pitching up in the area to watch the attacks, bleating on about how they're constantly under attack just piss me off.

They don't have to hide from bombs, they get to go to school, their electricity works, they have hospitals with power, drugs and other medical supplies, and sufficient trained staff. They're defended by the largest, most well equipped armed forces in the region, they're backed by the most powerful nation on earth and are the regions only nuclear power.

They don't seem to even consider what might provoke a young arab kid to strap on a bomb belt and climb onto a bus. The fact that an entire population has been driven out of Israel and several generations have grown up in refugee camps and ghetto's with none of the advantages and opportunities they have and little hope for the future doesn't seem to register with them at all.

[Colin Todd]

It looks warm over there, they dont know how good they've got it.

[Ironside]

I don't want people to think that I've got any time for the Hamas leadership or that of the Israeli's. My sympathies are entirely with the people of the region on both sides who are living in such appalling circumstances. However, whilst I'm as sympathetic to the Israeli families that have lost loved ones as I am for the Palestinians, it has to be faced that there are a lot less of them, and I'm beginning to get annoyed by the parade of Israeli civilians appearing on screen who constantly represent themselves as the victims in this whole situation. Yes, the populations living near the Armistice line most live in fear a lot of the time, but the teenage tourists from Tel Aviv that are pitching up in the area to watch the attacks, bleating on about how they're constantly under attack just piss me off.

They don't have to hide from bombs, they get to go to school, their electricity works, they have hospitals with power, drugs and other medical supplies, and sufficient trained staff. They're defended by the largest, most well equipped armed forces in the region, they're backed by the most powerful nation on earth and are the regions only nuclear power.

They don't seem to even consider what might provoke a young arab kid to strap on a bomb belt and climb onto a bus. The fact that an entire population has been driven out of Israel and several generations have grown up in refugee camps and ghetto's with none of the advantages and opportunities they have and little hope for the future doesn't seem to register with them at all.

Bollocks.

The Palestinian Authority has received hundreds of millions of EU funding over the years. Where did that money go? (apart from on guns & rockets).  Like the Africans, the've spunked the lot on weapons and Swiss bank accounts.  That arguement about being skint and would rather die fighting is nonsense.

I'm busy today so won't be contributing much.  Enjoy the debate gents.

[Ardiles]

I'm busy today so won't be contributing much.  Enjoy the debate gents.

I think Ironside's trying to have the last word here, chaps.

[pauld]

Would be the same if the Iranians decided enough was enough and bombed the residential Israeli areas, it'd be wrong.

That's effectively what they are doing - Hamas is funded and armed by Iran, you can just as easily see this as a proxy war between Iran and Israel. I've got a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians at large and despite playing devil's advocate to some extent in this debate, I feel the same as anyone else when I see pictures of women and kids fleeing military attacks. And I share Lumps' concerns about the effects of the Israeli blockade of Gaza. But Hamas are solely interested in concentrating their own power and serving Iran's interests in the region - Hamas and Iran have shown as little regard for Palestinian civilians in all this as have the IDF and must take their share of the blame for using their own people as pawns.

[janaage]

Definitely agree there Paul the way the Hamas "missile launchers", who themselves a pawns of the wiider situation, are toying with the lives and welfare of the "ordinary" Palestinian people's lives is disgusting.  Someone, somehow needs to get it into there thick heads that this needs to end.

Other than Hulk Hogan, early to mid-90's, I can't think of a human being able to do just that. 

The US' view on this whole situation is not helping matters though, I think a slightly more sympathetic view on the people of Palestine's situation would help.  That's not to say they have to not be "on Israel's side" but the constant verbal backing of Israel's actions will not be helping the US' reputation in Iraq/Afghanistan.

PS On the Iran point, I meant if Iran was bombing Israel in a similar fashion to the Israeli bombing of Gaza, although I take your point.

[sheepshagger]

Thing is this seems to be a never ending situation.

The Hamas leaders will never be seen to "relent" to the Israel leaders.

The Israel leaders will not offer any realistic concessions to the Palestinians - as was shown during the last "ceasefire"

Hamas will fire rockets until they run out - this will not happen as Iran seems to be supplying.  They are totally cowardly to place these launchers within the grounds of schools and hospitals - then complain when Israel retaliates, takes out the launchers and unavoidably kills innocent people

Israel sends in planes, tanks and bombs, kills anyone who gets in their path and then uses the Palastinian rocket placements as a defence for killing anyone they want.

Israel is backed up by the USA
Palastine is backed up by Iran

How the hell do you ever stop this ?  I thought Northern Ireland was never going to end (not saying the situation there is ideal by the way - just a damn sight better than it was) but people changed it.

Without the will of the common people on BOTH sides this will simply never stop.  Anyone from the west with an ounce of intelligence can see both right and wrong on both sides.

The trouble is there are decades and decades of resentment and hatred built up and unfortunately it is somewhat impossible to break down those barriers when Israel keeps killing innocent people, when Palastinians keep shelling Israel, when Israel stops all supplies to Palastine, and when Palastinians keep sending suicide bombers into Israel.

I am sure there are a lot of other things happening / happened that the majority of us will never know about but these fundemental things need to change before there is even the slightest possibility of a shift in thinking over there....

[ghanimah]

No-on reads the Daily Mail - they have it read to them

Not quite true, I know of at least one person who 'reads' it, a stuck-up switchboard operator who used to work near my IT dept some years ago. But would you believe she did actually read most of the paper out loud for the other 4 operators, every morning. Though not sure whether this was a pleasure they wanted or not.

[Phil_S]

You may want to start being disgusted then and perhaps a little less smug about "the incapable yanks" versus our own troops who've also been responsible for civilian deaths in Afghanistan. To pick just a couple of headlines from just the first page of a brief googling:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/26/military.afghanistan1
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/women-and-children-killed-in-afghanistan-by-british-air-strike-794994.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/2576271/British-troops-kill-four-Afghan-civilians-in-Helmand-province.html

Sorry, but this idea that you can have "clean" wars that don't kill civilians is just bullshit, particularly in the kind of assymetric warfare that fighting terrorists/insurgents/militants who necessarily blend in with the civilian population. And the British smugness that our lads manage to surgically take out only the bad hats while those crazy cowboy yanks blow the shit out of all and sundry bears equally little examination. And no I'm not having a go at the British troops serving in Afghanistan - I'm damn sure they take every step they can to avoid civilian casualties, but the fact is, you can't conduct this kind of war without civilian casualties and deaths. This idea of "clean wars" is, I'm afraid, one more piece of bullshit the politicians dreamed up so we wouldn't feel so bad about cheering on our boys.

Even if you were right in the "ooh, don't worry it's only the cowboy yanks, our hands are clean" I think you'll find most Afghan civilians don't differentiate between British carelessness, NATO carelessness or US carelessness when it comes to killing civilians - they just see Western forces killing their kids, wives etc.

Agree with those points Paul, but by way of illustration the Yanks & British armed forces do have a different attitude when shooting. My brother used to be in the Navy & whilst his ship was in the US was sent to one of their weapons training courses.
The brit philosphy is / was take aim & fire. The yank philosophy just spray as many bullets in the general direction.
The Israelli attitude is probably more like the Americans