Thetownend.com

UK police say they have new evidence in the case and are moving to a formal investigation .... Hmmmmm

Regardless of who took that child, the parents neglected their children that night at the very least.

They did a good job of burying her though

I still think it was the mum.  Her eyes are shifty!

Spot on.

Wow, are you guys parents?

If you are a parent of a young child/children you do not believe it is acceptable to leave them home alone & fuck off down the pub.

If they (the McCann's) were a chavvy couple from a council estate they would almost certainly have had a much rougher ride from the press/general public.

Bang on Posh.

You must be fucking kidding!

Spot on.

And didn't they sometimes sedate the kids aswell? You can't just leave young children and go to the pub let alone in a foreign country.

It's not as black & white as some like to suggest though.  Personally, I don't think I'd have done what the McCann's did that night and left their little ones alone while they were having a drink.  But I can understand why they might have done it if they felt that the kids were being left in a safe environment.  Sure enough, they got that call very badly wrong and will probably regret it for the rest of their lives.  But I'm not going to judge.

When I was at primary school, we lived in RAF married quarters and knew most of the people who lived around us.  Occasionally, my parents would go across the road to spend the evening with friends and leave us tucked up in bed.  And just to give themselves peace of mind, they would leave a baby alarm in the house with us, thread the cable across the road to their friends' house (this was in the days before wireless!) and put a ticking clock next to the monitor in our place so that they could be sure it was working.  I'm sure most parents wouldn't do anything similar these days...but expect lots of us have similar stories from when we were growing up.  I just don't feel easy with the vilification of the McCanns when what they did wasn't so different from what many others have done in the past and, in many cases, probably still do.

Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this! They are just intelligent enough to pull it off... Unlike that chavvy northern women that tried to copy them?

Gave her too much or she reacted badly to it, and they killed her.

So you've deduced this from the vast amount of evidence available? If only the police in the UK and Portugal had access to your sources, they could've solved this mystery years ago.
You should apply for Scotland Yard. With your detective skills you're a shoe in.

The Portugesse coppers certainly had their suspicions to start with.

I dont think they did it but nobody knows what really happened so its not exactly unbelieveable to think along those lines

People are pointing the finger at the mother mainly because she comes across as a thoroughly unpleasant bitch. That doesn't mean she killed her own child.
If likeability was a factor in determining criminality DMR would be a serial killer,  or paedophile. And he probably isn't.

I actually quite fancy the mum

This much is true.  If they could have at least admitted that they fucked up, there would be a lot more sympathy, and a lot less accusations.  They have only themselves to blame in that respect.

Doesn't matter who the Parents are or their circumstances, it's the fact that they left their 3 kids alone as they went to a bar. I could never have done that as I'd be worried they could wake. That would be upsetting at the least for the children so just could not of done it.would never have even considered it.

I would have topped myself if I were them. Could not live with myself. No way

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

I think that was part of the plan though; give them enough drugs to keep them asleep for a good few hours. Probably miscalculated the dose in the rush to get the first sangria on the go.

The mum had a nose job about 6 weeks after Madeline went missing. Selfish cow.

Neither parents have shed a tear. I think they know more than they let on.

Only in this Country would the actual crime be overshadowed by the blame game.

The actual crime being...?

The abduction of a child

What interests me more is who decides to allocate undoubtedly massive resources to this missing child case as compared to f**k all for most others, what criteria are applied and whether there is any independent and public scrutiny
of this type of information.

As with murder, I believe the media is actually the major influence on where the police allocates its resources not the crime or even the likelihood of detection.

They're guilty as sin IMO and the sooner they stop milking it the better

And why haven't there other kids been taken from them by the social? If you did that round here they'd be kicking your door off within 5 minutes

Whatever the ins and outs of the case it's an interesting illustration of the wider way the country works.

The whole interpretation seems to be that they are both doctors and thus angels and beautified by the daily mail,  just imagine the response if they had been working class or god forbid foreign.

I don't really have a view on what happened,  most parents I know (and me) would never leave kids and go down pub?  I have always suspected that there was possibility a whole fruit bowl car key scenario that went down that night.

But the sheer arrogance of the whole response is what grates,  the whole PR has been woeful and the aspiration to blame the local police breathtaking.

It's a heartbreaking case...

Whilst I've no interest in getting into a debate about parenting skills, or the fact most people on here seem to have accumulated more evidence than the British and Portuguese police combined, saying that they went down the pub is a bit misleading.
The bar at the complex they were staying in in Luz was across the (small) pool from their apartment. The place was, and still is, completely enclosed. It isn't as far off leaving the kids upstairs whilst you're in the garden as some make out.

That said, I entirely agree that if they were uneducated, the media portrayal would be different. Equally, the fact they are educated doesn't make them guilty.

At the beginning definitely.

Has not aged well.

Not entirely cut and dry.  That dreadful case in Machllullghlellll... in Wales, the mum seemed pretty lower class (council house I believe?) let her young child out to play in the street under no supervision, child murdered.  Don't hear many calling for her head.  Is it that we know she didn't do it is enough to allow our sympathy to override our dissatisfaction with her parenting skills - whereas we don't know the McCanns didn't do it, so we are happy to piss and moan about their parenting skills?

I'm not trying to troll here but as morbid as this sounds I wish they had found/find her body. So the parents can start to move on. It must be a living hell to not know if your child is dead or alive.

Pub/tapas bar is neither here nor there. Still Can't understand how anyone could leave young children alone where they could neither be seen or heard by their parents. Apparently the pool is close to the bar but the McCanns would of had to exit the complex through a security gate, walk up the road to access the rear of their apartment and further up the road and around the corner to access the front of their apartment both of which had 3ft gates which members of the public walk past.

Fucking hell

The idea that you could take a child and raise them without anyone noticing this sudden high-profile arrival, keep them from communicating with anyone about their past, or prevent their inevitable desire in the future to find and contact their actual parents, is absurd. Only if they are kept separate from all other humans would that plan work. And if someone wanted a kid that badly, but couldn't have one of their own, I'd imagine they'd adopt. Presumably, if she was taken to order, the operation would have cost a shitload of money, which could have been used to obtain another (legitimate) child without causing such a shitstorm.

The Portugese Police have bollocksed the investigation up; around 20 different people visited the McCann's apartment before it was sealed off, therefore massively limiting the validity of forensics. Funny though that they've not found any fingerprints, or hair fibres, or skin cells to indicate that anyone else entered the apartment.

I also don't understand why, if you are going to leave your kids, and go to the trouble of specifically booking a table that overlooks your apartment - presumably because you're concerned about their safety - you wouldn't lock the patio doors right next to them that lead onto a public road. Too contradictory and dumb to be true.

One of the McCann's party supposedly saw the abductor carrying a girl matching Madeline's description - and did absolutely nothing about it at the time (go and check if it is her? shout? run after him? mention it to the parents when you get back to the restaurant?) except report it when they had declared her missing.

There's a lot of weird shit going on in this story, which tells me that they killed her and have done their best to cover it up.

It used to be common practice to leave children and even babies alone whilst on holiday. At Butlins for example, as recently as the 70's they had systems in place to inform parents if their left alone baby was crying (writing the chalet number on a board for example).

So what has changed? I'm not convinced more offences agains children are committed nowadays, given what went on in the church and with media personalities for example in the past. I think they're given more media coverage and more are reported though.

Whilst I wouldn't condone for one moment leaving children alone, I'm really not convinced they are at any more risk than they were 40 years ago when doing so was viewed as acceptable. Which again leaves me wondering what has really changed?

Sorry, was that un-PC terminology?  Would you prefer "Lower socio-economic standing" or "monetarily disadvantaged"?  You know what I meant.  

No I didn't

Care to explain ?

Well, there was much debate above (re-read the last few pages of you wish) that the McCanns were being "let off the hook" because they are higher class (sorry, "fortunate in their past fiscal performance") and I was merely pointing out the converse, that a person of lower class (there, I said it again) was equally "let off the hook" in broadly similar circumstances. I'm not judging one or the other, simply pointing out it is untrue (IMO) that the McCanns social standing impacts upon their portrayal in the media to any great degree.

I don't know if you deliberately missed my whole point or I just didn't explain myself very well (probably the latter, I accept).

I think you misinterpreted me. I am fairly ambivalent towards the parents to be honest but I do have empathy for the child. The shit that she must have had to go through on that and subsequent days is fairly unbearable to think about.

It was more your inference that council house tenants = lower class that pissed me off in all honesty

Well, I don't really understand that.  I don't think I would be breaking new ground to suggest there is a level of correlation between instance of social housing and position in class hierarchy. 

For sure they won't of been the 1st or will be the last children to be left alone by their parents. Personally never left our kids alone when they were toddlers and can't understand parents doing it. Putting kids into daytime holiday crèches and leaving them alone in the evenings wouldn't be my idea of a family holiday, if A couple want time on their own surely it would be kinder and safer to leave the kids back at home with a family member or have a drink on the balcony whilst the kids are asleep in the next room.

Absolutely. It's a slippery slope though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edZjdgU0asM

I still have hope that Madeline will be found alive and can only imagine what the family must still go through.

That's ace.

Posh Dumb Bitch - I won't let my children play with children with geographical first names as they're all scummers.
Phillip Schofield - One of your daughters is called India.
Posh Dumb bitch - India isn't a geographical name.

Probably.

Glad my subtle wording wasn't missed.

A drill's a drill

Why is Spitting Image not still around?  They would have a field day.

And there's something very odd about this photo/picture of familial bliss.  She does look a little 'post op', to tell the truth.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fRbGUhHQQhY/USYDLea7VxI/AAAAAAAAUDY/hvq0C7WOuqA/w800-h800/Katie%2Bhopkins.jpg)

Her parents should have named her 'cunt'

Bloody hell, Boris Johnson gets around, doesn't he

This.  When you have children, holidays have to be adapted around them like it or not.  My two enjoy doing some of the activities the kids club offer, but I'd certainly not force them there if they didn't want to go. Both me and my husband have taken it in turns to go back to the room when our youngest son has been tired and grumpy, whilst the other has stayed watching entertainment with our older son.  The thought of putting him to bed and going back out together is utterly inconceivable.

Yep....you wouldn't even do that at home even in an enviroment  you are familiar with.

Oh....and i wouldn't write a book about it either....even if the money was going to charity.

As others have said.....a single woman on benefits would be crucified if she had done what they did....really hope that one day the truth is out.

Clearly there are still a fair amount of people, including those on here who think they had something to do with it - drugging gone wrong? Surely, they wouldn't be pushing the police to reinvestigate and keeping it in the public domain if that was the case?

If I was the "easily offended" type-that would have me seething!

Presumably in your council house

:Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

And your point is exactly ?

Is this a serious post?

?

Yes, why not?

Seriously. I'm more than willing to be schooled/made to look like an idiot etc.

It was more the fact that you find it unbelievable that kids get taken and our kept alive as part of familys etc.It is quite common unfortunatly

I know that human and child trafficking goes on, but I'd be extremely surprised if anyone managed to achieve it, or thought they could, with such a high profile child as Madeline McCann. If someone did take her then I guess they may not have expected her to gain such notoriety.

I assume that child trafficking normally occurs when poorer families are forced to give up/sell their children to the traffickers, and a small amount of kidnapping of children from similar families, and that it doesn't normally happen to children of middle class british families.

But there have been a few of high profile cases where kids were snatched and hidden out of sight by the abductor.  Amanda Berry et al most recently. Very few and far between though.

This whole Crimewatch/release of a couple of e-fits.

Perhaps it's just me but I barely remember a thing about 2007 yet alone remember what any random person I saw on holiday looked like.

Fair play to them for keeping it in the media spotlight.  I just hope the government are giving parents of other lost children, who don't leave them alone to socialise, the same funding.

Oh come on. The government aren't giving the McCanns any funding. The police are investigating a crime, as they should.

The sniping at a family who fucked up and paid an intolerably heavy price for doing so really does show the worst side in some people. For the love of God I pray nothing similar ever happens to either of my kids but if it did I hope I'd move heaven and earth to find them. As would anyone.

Hear hear!  Amazing the number of model parents out there who have never put a foot wrong and ready to dish out parenting advice.  Fair enough, I've never left my kids unattended like that - but I have screwed up in other ways along the way...as I'd guess we all have.  Thankfully, I've never had to deal with what the McCanns have had to.

You'd think that had you'd been there, you might just have mentioned anyone looking shifty at the earliest opportunity.

Always the chance someone will recognise them knowing the said person was in the area I suppose.

No ones perfect, but they have showed no emotion whatsoever. I know grief affects people in different ways but they haven't once shed a tear.

Also the mums nose looks rather dashing....

I seriously doubt that that's true.

And just because the parents are showing a bit of traditional British 'stiff upper lip' and aren't displaying the emotional incontinence of an X-Factor contestant (which seems to have become obligatory ever since Diana died), it doesn't mean they're not hurting in private.  Maybe they're just trying to maintain a little dignity in public.

I'd disagree. They have showed absolutely no emotion whatsoever. How can anyone sit through so many media interviews and still hold it together? Not even chocking up or anything.

I look at them, and yes it's sad, but something just doesn't feel right. Have they even been questioned properly by the old bill? Surely leaving your child alone, is child neglect?

Pretty sure there is no minimum age at which a child can be left unattended ( popular myth has it at 14 )


http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/for-parents/keeping-your-child-safe/being-home-alone/home-alone_wda96754.html


I guess the at risk part is open to interpretation

You mean like Mick Philpott did, when he'd knowingly torched his own house with six of his children asleep inside?

And the holier-than-thou shit continues. ::)

Maybe some of your should try to look at this from a different angle?

A poor, defenceless little girl was abducted 7 years ago. She is most likely dead, but let's hope that she isn't.

If she isn't dead lets hope that she hasn't had to endure anything too terrible and that she can be found soon and the perpetrators brought to justice.

If she is dead, lets hope she didn't suffer too much and that the perpetrators are brought to justice so they can't do it to anyone else.  

I fear that we will never know what happened and that she will not be found. More importantly, the perpetrators will never be caught and may indeed make others suffer too.

Last night was absolutely ridiculous. Purely sensationalist telly, simply to get more people watching the BBC at prime time - targeting about 20 or so people who were actually in Playa de Whatsit to try and jog their memory. Surely the 20 or so people in and around the scene that night are the ONLY ones who could come up with some new, tangible information. Here's an idea, ring those cunts up, or track them down and interview them again.

I said something similar to the wife. If I'd been one of those 20 people I would like to think that I would have already contacted the police to ask what I could do to help.

(Stolen from another forum)
As a parent, I have faults. Sometimes I give my children beans on toast instead of a healthy meal because I'm busy. Sometimes they climb on stuff that they could fall off and I don't stop them. Sometimes I get home from work after they've gone to bed and I don't see them. Sometimes I leave them for hours at a time, whilst I go out for dinner with my mates.

Oh wait, one of those is gross negligence, not a fault.

fking morons.

Yes. The police have taken on the case and are doing the same appeal in Holland Germany and0 Ireland all to get the bbc more viewers.Here is a thought maybe it is two parents who know damn well that the disapearance of their child was down to theis stupidity and until they know what happened will keep doing what they did last night. Only in this country would what the parents done be a bigger issue than the actual crime

To be honest it really doesn't matter what "the internet" thinks. Waking up every day knowing if only you hadn't gone out....is a horror far worse than any public opinion could ever provide.

Good soundbite. Except it's not quite that black and white is it.

I just don't trust their story.

Yes it is. If this had been a working class single mother that had left her kids in the house in Doncaster while she went to the pub next door, rather than a middle class couple that left their kids in an appartment in Portugal while they went to a tapas bar or whatever, the press would have fucking crucified her, and she'd probably have been prosecuted for neglect and lost her other children.


You do not leave young children on their own in the house while you got out drinking. It's very fucking black and white actually.

The problem with that scenario is that it ignores the potential new witnesses brought in by the change inthe time line. Eliminating the previously suspected man carrying child made the abduction time likely to be later. This identified the second man carrying child who was further away from the apartment, so widening the net and expanding the possibitilites of as yet unidentified witnesses.

The Met have done the right thing in requesting air time on Crimewatch and the foreign equivalantsto open up the enquiry. Crimewatch doesn't approach the Police and ask to feature a particular investigation. The Investigating officer makes a request to Crimewatch.

I was going to post something very similar. I don't think there is anything underhand going on from the parents but they made the worst kind of mistake with the worst possible outcome. The blame lies solely with them.

Yeah whoever took her is proper blameless.

He's the real victim here.

If someone took her.

You're right, and it's appalling that the press treat people like that on the basis of their class. Reverse discrimination against the McCanns because they are middle class doesn't make it any better though. They fucked up, they shouldn't have done, I'm reasonably confident they know that and are tortured by it every waking minute. They and more importantly their innocent daughter don't deserve the appalling price they've had to pay for that though. Or the gleeful condemnation of some which I have to say I find baffling and quite depressing.

Absolutely 100% spot on.

"Oh they deserved it". Only a complete fucking mong thinks this.

I think you're being a little bit cute here. There are sickos and weirdos everywhere and it's a parents job to protect their children. The McCanns didn't and the kiddy got pinched. They are to blame.

Corrected for you.

I don't see there's any reverse discrimination here. My position is fairly clear. I think every parent should be judged by the same standards, and fucking off down the pub and leaving primary school age kids at home alone is not acceptable. That's not saying the family got what coming to them. It's saying that their actions were neglectful. Which when judged objectively they clearly were.

I don't know a single parent that would have done this. I don't know a single parent that wouldn't be horrified if one of their friends did this with their kids. I know they must be wracked with guilt over this, but it's not a unreasonable, irrational guilt is it? It's a guilt that arises from the knowledge that their actions allowed this to happen to their child.

Which is part of the problem in this case. People don't trust their side of the story due to the initial reports from the portugese police which have been proved to be absolute bollocks

You're just being pedantic. I didn't say there wasn't blame to be apportioned elsewhere.

Cannot believe they went out after Madeleine had told them that both her brother and she had woken up the previous night and didn't know where her parents were. Even after knowing that they left them again.
I think she was taken by a stranger but they didn't look after their kids properly. Whoever it was must have monitored their behaviour over previous evenings.

If someone had kidnapped your child, that would be the first thought on anyone's mind every day they woke up, wouldn't it? You'd blame yourself for being a such an irresponsible dick and leaving the kids alone. You'd never forgive yourself I expect.

Mrs McCann came out the other day with the quote:

"We're not the one's who have done anything wrong here."

Yes you fucking are.

Just the other day I was looking after my little boy while watching stuff on the laptop. So engrossed I was in what I was watching that I didn't notice him playing with the power cable and I stopped him from putting it in his mouth, as 6 months old are prone to do, just in the nick of time. The consequences could, of course, have been catastrophic.

Even though nothing happened I still 'blame' myself for my carelessness and chastise myself for it. Had the worst happened then I would be blaming myself for it for the rest of my life and would never, ever, try to claim I had done nothing wrong.

For them to try to absolve themselves of all blame is something that I just cannot fathom.

Assume not one parent here has ever driven over any speed limit with their children in the car aswell

Agreed, and I believe it is one of the reasons that some people struggle to have much sympathy for them.


You would have thought after that they would have felt so guilty that they wouldn't do it again.

???

Assume you would happily leave a toddler at home when you nip off to the supermarket then?

I know that I have.

They were clearly very careless in what they did, as many (if not all) of us have been careless also.

I just can't fathom how they are trying to deny any fault, I just can't get my head around it.

Having said that though, the press are known to spin the context to their liking.

I was shocked when they openly admitted that in the interview last night.  It's not something that's ever been mentioned before and seems to have been glossed over by the media.  Aside from what did transpire, how frightening for young children to wake up in unfamiliar surroundings and not know where their parents were.  It's never really struck me before, but there was nothing to have stopped them waking up, being frightened and going out the unlocked door to look for the parents.

The other thing was that in the reconstruction last night, the various parents were regularly getting up to go and check on their children.  It really seemed quite pointless trying to have an adults meal when people were up and down all the time

Oh yeah,happily. You can see 3rd line down where i said that aswell. My point is many are equally neglectful in the way they drive with children in the car,many on here have done. Why doesnt that make them as bad as these two?

see my above post

So you honestly believe that driving at 75 on the motorway with kids in the car is the same as leaving them alone in a strange place?

I'm assuming if that is the case you believe that stealing sachets of ketchup from a motorway services is the same severity of crime as GBH?

Must be very black & white in your world.

If you crash at high speed and kill your kids as a result of your negligence then yes, it is very much comparable.

The only difference between the two is fortune, or lack of it.

*

I'm not trying to defend them as people though as I find their apparent coldness toward the situation a tad odd.

The difference is you have a level of control, and driving a car is a normal activity.

You could have an accident driving at 70 on the motorway (which is presumably not negligent) & kill everyone in the car (including your kids).

A plane could crash, does that make it negligent taking a child on a plane?
They could drown at the beach, does that mean you shouldn't let them in the water?

Although it's probably more dangerous (& negligent) if you were to let your 3 year old go swimming in the sea on their own whilst you sat in the bar having a pint ;)

I think they're pulling your chain Posh.

love putting words in my mouth don't you and no it isnt black and white but both are equally as bad are they not. I would hazard a guess more children are killed from a parent driving over the limit than kids are abducted from being left alone.

not at all,breaking the law and putting your kids is dangerous and neglect no?

Corrected for you.

I deleted some of my posts on here by accident, just in-case anybody is wondering

I genuinely don't see many parallels between leaving your kids alone, and going above the speed limit. I find the comparison most odd in fact.

I guess it comes down to how you personally see the risk. I have no evidence, but I'd say doing 80 opposed to 70 down an empty motorway is far less dangerous than leaving a three year old two one year olds on their own.

But more than that its just something I'd never do. I view leaving your kids on their own grossly irresponsible.  I accept not everyone does, and there is not much point blaming the McCanns for doing it after the fact.

To meI don't think minor/moderate speeding itself is in the same category at all. Going 34 mph in a 30 is clearly far less risky than leaving your kids alone.

Speeding on a motorway and leaving a child alone in an unlocked apartment is not on the same scale. I'm not going to overly criticise the McCanns as I'm sure they've tortured themselves over this enough, but at the same time I'm not going to try and defend their actions either.

Replace speeding with dangerous driving or driving while drunk and you'll be there.

The point is that swimming in the sea with a young child isn't particularly dangerous, unless you let them do it on their own unsupervised.

As for speeding with a child in the car, you suggest it's just a case of luck (not having an accident). But surely that is true everytime you get in the car and drive on the motorway.
Personally I did drive much more carefully when I had our son in the car, but just don't see that driving at 75 instead of 70 being anywhere near the same level of negligence as leaving your children unsupervised.

I think our son was about 15 before we would leave him at home on his own.

But that wasn't the reference point, speeding was.

And define driving dangerously. Purposely driving like a prick, or a momentary lack of concentration? Because the latter is an involuntary action, whereas going for a Tapas isn't.

Yeah, I know. It's just what I had in mind in the discussion. A misunderstanding of context.

It's just that it can be easy to be sanctimonious at times (not intended as a dig at anyone here)

My main issue is their reaction to what happened. I just cannot get my head around how they can try to deny responsibility. I find that quite chilling!

If the comparison had been to drink driving I would agree, but I guess that a lot less people drink & drive than speed.

I think its a pointless argument, people have different viewpoints on whst is right and what is wrong. End of.

Actually I read a comment somewhere which asked, why didn't April Jones parents publicly get the same criticism of negligence for letting her play out on her own aged 5. Fair enough comparison? Its more tricky, I'd not let my kids on the street aged 5, but I live in Swindon not the arse end of Wales.
-------
To get back on the Maddie topic, at the time the police claimed that a cadaver dog and a blood detecting dog gave 'alerts' in the holiday flat and in the hire car (hired a month after the disappearance). I thought there was some DNA link with this too, might be wrong.

I assume these 'alerts' have been explained to (UK/local) police - either they are often false alerts, or occur through some other reason, or the press embellished the story. Did anyone read anything regarding this in the public domain?

I don't think mean to point the finger at the McCanns, its more it always seemed a massive thing that I never saw an explanation for.

Aha, wiki to the rescue, partly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id242.html is a good site for McCann info.

I have read this very carefully. I can't say that I followed the original story very closely, although from the outset, I always felt that there was something not right about the primary scenario. I didn't watch Crimewatch...I hate it as a programme so I don't know what was alleged, or what any individual said....but the scenario which rings truest to me from what I have read here is that Maddy woke up, found she was alone and went to look for her parents....the subsequent disappearance could have at least two possible explanations - abduction or accidental death.

From my own childhood, i well remember a family outing for shopping and tea in Marlborough. I was 4 or 5. I was being slow getting ready, my parents lost patience with me and said they were going without me and my older brother. In reality, they went a few hundred yards to get petrol and returned, to find that my brother and I had believed them and set out to walk the eight miles to Marlborough. We walked about three miles and then took a wrong turning. It was getting dark, and a guy in a car, who we vaguely recognised stopped and said he would give us a lift home. Classic. In fact, he did but it could have been so different... What would my parents have said if we had disappeared? Probablythat the only explanation was we had been abducted from home.....but we could have died from exposure, fallen into farm machinery, etc etc....none of which would have happened had they not apparently carried out their threat to leave us behind. Children behave irrationally.

For a start one is a criminal offence the other isn't... so depends what scale we are working on.

This argument is utter bollocks. If you were arguing about people driving drunk or recklessly (I don't know racing or something) then you might have a point.

But speed limits? They're almost completely arbitary. By your argument you're irresponible and neglectful driving at 65mph on most US highways, but completely responsible and safe driving at 105mph on German autobahns? Or is the assumption that the UK has the right answer on this issue and everyone else is wrong?

To suggest that going a few MPH over the speed limit is equally as bad as leaving 3 young children on their own is utterly bizarre.

Speeding with children in the car is not neglect or stupid then,is that what you are saying

I think this thread has gone off at a wild tangent. Life is dangerous, you could be driving at 20mph and be hit head on by someone overtaking. Nobody on here knows anything regarding what happened in Portugal, but should children that young be left alone? That is something we can all have an opinion on.

Justin biebers army of beliebers did it

The nutters

This thread is too depressing.

(http://thewittygritty.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/basketofpuppies.jpg)

Those poor puppies have been abandoned

Not to mention the fifth one that's suffocating at the bottom of the basket :(

I hate dogs  :cry:

Driving recklessly fast is indeed stupid. My argument is with you defining that with reference to speed limits. Explain to me which one of the many speed limits for motorway / highway driving that are in place around the world is the "safe" and non-neglectful one? The laws of physics don't vary from one continent to another.

I drive at 60mph and I'm safely within the speed limit here, speeding in most US states, driving (probably dangerously) slowly on German autobahns, and it's impossible to tell whether I'm being reckless in any of those circumstances. Depends on the road conditions.

I'm also curious about your use of the phrase "with children in the car", meaning presumably that you think it's fine to speed when there aren't kids in your car, despite the fact that there may be kids on the street that you may run over, or in other cars that you may crash into. Don't feel you have any responsibility for them?

How did you work that out? I didn't see him say that, or anything remotely close to that once.

He didn't write it expcilitly but then meaning is there implicitly. Because if he thought speeding was a terrible thing to do in general he wouldn't have found it necessary to add the subordinate modifying clause "with children in the car" to the sentence. That's what modifying clauses do, they modify (in this case limit the applicability of), the main part of the sentence.

And it's not just a poorly worded post, as he's use the same sentence structure twice, once in his original post and then again in the post I quoted in my response.

Fuck me you like to ramble on don't you

Lumps ought to run for parliament  :)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/34dftwx.jpg)

You knew what his point was though.

What's that from?

Both of those actors are great.

Rafe Spall or whatever his name is was a superb madman in the BBC series The Shadow Line, and that Pete vs Life show is good too.

I used to say that as a chat up line.

Hot fuzz

Yeah Hot Fuzz. Top film.