Thetownend.com

FWIW as an ex council house working class kid with naff all pension and no country pile or multiple directorships to shout about, who has always worked hard and voted conservative, I can honestly state that if my MP votes with the government tomorrow he'll be two votes down at the next GE, cos my wife will veto them as well.

And for that reason we want out.

Discuss....

A year ago this thread would've got to 20 pages.

I'm guessing it won't get much past three now.

What is the euro worth today?...enough said.
Lets face it at the alarming rate it is falling compared to the pound and other currencies it will soon be worthless.
To be honest politicians in other countries deciding the fate of laws etc in other nations is just so weird and clearly unfair.

The plus points are massively outnumbered by the negative points.

Germany lost the war but they intend to win the peace, the French as usual will do everything the Germans tell them to do. The only reason Europe wants, sorry, tolerates the UK is because of our money, they'd be even more fucked without us.

It's a double edged sword for them. If we joined the euro they'd be tied as we'd have as much as a say as anyone, if not more. Outside the Euro they can pretty much exclude us to a point but can't rely on any money directly only via the IMF and that means the Germans are now bailing out most of the eurozone countries and will extract a high price from euro members for the privilege.  

Heath the prick sold us a pup, should have listed and learned from to that two faced cunt DeGaulle. Thatcher clawed some back. Blair gave it away again and that boss eyed scoTtish twat sold us down the river. Time to stand up and be counted Cameron. Fuck Europe there is a whole world out there to trade with.  

what the fuck has this got to do with football?

I was hoping for a passionate debate on the worth of the Champions League.

Out. Definitely out. As for a whole world to trade with, well we fucked that one when we joined the EEC as it was then. We totally fucked over our Commonwealth partners who found other trading partners - they may have long memories.
The EU is one serious fuck up - a live experiment that has gone very wrong but a little bit like Iraq there was no plan B or no exit strategy. We've just gone further and further into the mire by stealth.
Politicians are frightened of giving us an in or out vote because it will be close. In the event of a no, they'll just have a further vote until they get a yes like in Ireland.
Basically the EU are the political equivalent of Diamandis - complete cunts who think they can do what they want to who they want. 

Out, no reason not to stay out now. Fannied about over Greece for too long and now problems are going to spread, the whole of Europe is going to have some big problems to deal with soon.

Leefer you say the euro losing its value now but wait until the Germans pull out and reintroduce the deutschmark, euro will go bye bye then.

bring back the anglo italian cup!

Sorry Leefer can you expand a little here?  As I'd say the euro's still doing fine, value wise, current sterling to euro exchange is 1.16, whereas a few years ago it was around the 1.5 mark.  After a little investigating the Euro in the last year has lost 1.88% v GBP, hardly free fall.

Free fall would be the pounds performance v Aussie dollar, who's made 59% on our currency in the last 3 three years.

So is it the Euro in a state, or is it the pound that's looking a little shakey on it's feet?

Also we speak to a fair few fund houses and most recent comment from them suggest the Germans will 'not allow' the euro to fail and 'will never leave' the currency.  Greece will 'more than likely' default, and eventually come back a stronger economy for it, but there is hope that other euro-countries won't need to follow suit.

All opinion obviously.

So that'll be why Germany are already (reportedly) printing Deutschmarks then? The Euro can't continue in its current form. Powerhouses like Germany won't have countries like the PIIGs stiffling their growth for years to come.

Greece will default and they will be kicked out of the Euro. They're just being drip fed enough from the IMF at the moment to get them by until the French and Germans can recapitalise their banks.

Agree with fatbasher & Chalkies Shorts.
Our problem is that the MP's do NOT represent the opinions of the people on this one. Cameron is tied down by Clegg, who would want full US of Europe. Or at least that is the excuse he uses.
Basically we were lied to in the 70's when asked do we want a common market with free trade.

I would query that. I agree that the political will to prop up the economic equivalent of the titanic should not be underestimated, but the reality is the Euro cannot survive in its current form.

In truth there are only two, rather stark, options. Either the 17 Eurozone countries agree to full fiscal and political union with fiscal transfers between rich and poorer nations or, there has to be an orderly breakup of the Euro, logically between the likes of Germany and Greece.

The first choice is a non starter, not least because of Germany. The German Constitutional Court has ruled it out, saying it is a fundamental breach of German Basic Law, besides Merkel would never get it past her Parliament let alone the German taxpayer.

The second choice is the most logical, but the EU under no circumstances will contemplate that, not least because the currency is so fundamental to the EU's objective of full political union.

So, because those two options are unpalatable for various reasons, we're getting the usual sticking plaster - in effect trying to magic a third solution that doesn't exist. And the outcome of that will be a chaotic collapse of the currency.

Despite what Germany, France et al want, the reality is the Euro cannot continue as it in its current makeup.

A quick Google of that shows reports of the printing of Deutsche Marks back to 2009.  I smell bullshit.

The desire held by some on mainland Europe and here in the UK for further integration beyond the point of a single trading relationship (which is what we signed up for) is driven, to a large extent, by the realisation that the tectonic plates are shifting.  In 50 years from now, China and India will be calling the shots with the USA still making itself heard, but not to the same extent.  The argument goes that Europe can only have a place at the top table if it unites and acts as one.

The thing is, in the UK we've had 50+ years now to get used to the idea that we're no longer at the top table.  And personally, it's not something that keeps me up at night.  I can see some benefit to being a member of the Euro-club, but these are now increasingly outweighed by the disadvantages and costs.

On balance, I'm not sure I wish to see a complete withdrawal from political Europe - but I would be in favour of a significant repatriation of powers to Westminster.  As an anecdote, I found my heckles rising a few weeks ago when a European Parliament anti-smoking appeared in the morning paper.  It read something like 'Marcel is from Luxembourg.  Annie is from the UK.  They have both kicked the habit in the last 12 months, and so can you.'  I found myself thinking 'That's great, but what the fuck has this got to do with the EU?  My local healthcare trust should be dealing with issues like this.'

Back in the day i voted yes to the COMMON MARKET. As was said earlier, we were sold a pup.
If we had that vote again. I'd vote get out quick.
I have no qualms about being a minor player in this world.

No way it will be fifty years.  I'd say the next 5-20 years dependent on their ability to get oil.

5-20 years for China, a little longer for India though. 

1. Source? And having a contingency plan doesn't mean you want or will put that plan in place.
2. I didn't say the Euro would continue in it's current state - in terms of current users of the currency. So a couple of leavers wouldn't mean the end of the euro.
3. Yep agree, Greece at some stage will default.

I'd be surprised if Germany returned to the Deutschmark, as I expect they're quite happy with their economic blitzkreig of Europe.

I see that Salmond wants to take Scotland into the Eurozone when they achieve the hoped for independence.

Good luck to him Reg, however, I don't think he'll get the 'total independence' he's after.

Think it will happen, maybe not at this referendum..

I have no issue with people wanting out on the basis of some sort of national pride style argument, and nothing against people wanting in for some sort of belief of a better economic future sometime.  It does irritate me slightly with people wanting some sort of best of both worlds and moaning how we were badly sold the idea.  If you vote on something so consititutionally important, surely you do some basic info finding before you vote yes?

The EEC was set-up with a goal of complete social and economic cohesion of participating states.  The current set-up of the EU is not even close to the end game, where we would have one central bank, one single foreign policy etc.

Personally, I'm not fussed either way to be honest.  I can see that the idea itself was a cracking one, it just missed the point that we struggle to stay at peace with each other in our own countires, let alone with ones who speak funny languages - that goes for all of us Europeans.

In for me. This is finally our chance to have Europe on our own terms. Weve been proven right on the single currency. I think this will mean we get a 2 tier Europe, which is something we have always wanted. We could end up leading the EU countries not in the Eurozone. We do need to repatriate powers from Brussels, and try to cut down the size and bureacracy of that assembly.

The Eurozone will not be allowed to fail. Its value is holding up very well. A super powerful Deutschmark doesnt do Germany any favours because of its manufacturing exports. But one thing is clear, Germany dominates the Eurozone and calls all the shots now. I think the stress is starting to show for Sarkozy because he realises that France is becomming the junior partner, its a big shock for the French, but not for anyone else. Their standard of living has been inflated for years now based on their own output.

As for Salmond, he is a smug bastard who will lead Scotland to the same fate that Ireland is waking up to. Economic domination by the Germans.

I have said for a long time it's time to get out. The EU cannot even get it's accounts signed off due to fraud. In fact if the EU was a company, they would be shut down by now. I would refuse to pay any more money into the EU's coffers until they sort it out. It's been going on for 15 years and they've done fuck all about it.  The EU is now a club for failed politicians to join (Kinnock and Mandelson to name but two) to get a nice big fat pension on the publics purse expense.

I would've liked to remain but to get our powers back, but that is never going to happen as the EU will just laugh at us when we try to renegotiate. The only way they will take us seriously is a national vote of 'in or out', where the answer is out'. If that happens the EU is screwed, as we are one of the biggest economies in the world, and if we pull out of the EU, the EU will not have any credibility left.

Can't remember exactly, think it was on the comments on Citywire or IFA Online a few weeks ago.

Of course, if it is true, it is just a preventative measure. I can't see Germany wanting to go back to the DM out of choice, it would just cause short term super-inflation and their exports would be fucked.

As it is, I think Greece will go back to the Drachma. They'll have to spend years devaluing the currency which will just fuel perpetual boom/bust cycles in the short term. It's certainly not going to be pretty for Greece, that's for sure.

But Greece won't be alone. Portugal/Ireland/Italy/Spain will all be facing the same situation.


The only reason France met the Maastricht requirements was by sweeping a fuck load of debt under the carpet. They'd be just as fucked as Greece otherwise.

I'm all in favour of the EU. We have a local council and national government, what's wrong with an international ruling body above that? Even if we weren't in the EU it would have a massive impact on our lives, the same as various international bodies already do. Sure the EU isn't perfect but we've more chance of changing it from the inside than out.

Problem is that they fucked up with the expansion - they let far too many poorer countries join the EU too soon which has caused a complete mess as things start to equalise out, there is a limit to the number of these countries the richer ones can support. Similar with the Eurozone, far too many countries with vastly different economies.

I imagine they were trying to speed up the complete integration of Europe, instead they've set it back another 10-20 years.

Seems it was a comment made by Philippa Malmgren of Principalis.

‘I think they have already got the printing machines going and are bringing out the old deutschmarks they have left over from when the euro was introduced.’

Not the most reliable of sources that. All thoughts and rumours.

'I can't see Germany wanting to go back to the DM out of choice, it would just cause short term super-inflation and their exports would be fucked.' George Soros couldn't have put it better himself.

Raus aus dem Euro !
I am going to have to work until I die to save countries like Greece, who should never have been let into the EuroZone anyway

Why not put them all in some kind of camp.

Odd comment from a man whoses country 'invented' the concentration camp

I'm not from Poland mate.

Not English either then?

http://www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm

No, I am English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment#Earliest_usage_of_concentration_camps_and_origins_of_the_term

First time is was used on a large scale was by the English. Even though people like you would have the world believe the Germans were the first to use it on such a scale.

P.S - the use by the Nazis of the camps was completely wrong, and should NEVER have happened

Hook, line and sinker. Cheers Herman :D

No worries

I thought the Spanish were first to use them a few years before the Brits.

But (if wiki is reliable) then it was the Russians!  Learn something new everyday.

Is who invented the concentration camp important? If I invented the gun, does that make me responsible for every death caused by them?  The Gerries took the concept of the concentration camp to another level - not to the band Another Level.

Circa 30,000 total dead in British camps (in 2nd boer war) v 20,000 a day in the German versions. No need to go to penalties on that one.

Interesting read on the Boer suffering here http://www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm

Back to Europe, I see the Greeks are doing everything in their power to create more uncertainty. A Gareth out package agreed, then a referendum called, now Greek govt ministers are querying the need of calling a referendum. Make a decision, and lets get rid of the negative market sentiment out there, corporates are looking pretty tasty at the moment.

I've never liked Greece... invented the toilet, then pretty much left it as it is. Having to put loo-roll in a bit is a bit primitive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iheZM6VBJfE

Looks like Mr Cameron may have decided on out of the EU.

I'm pro EU but think he got it right on this one. The rest of the EU (led by France and Germany) appear to have lost the plot and are clutching at straws to pull them out of the massive pile of shit they are in.

They've suddenly decided they've got to have tighter financial rules. They knew that when they started the Euro and they put similar rules to those now planned in place. Then they realised some countries wouldn't meet them, so ignored the rules and eventually got rid of them. No doubt they'll end up doing the same again.

I've got zero confidence in the EU to sort the mess out and if anything they seem intent on making it worse. Appears to be no guarantee their plan will work and the shit will really hit the fan (which is scary given how bad things are at present). We're best off as far away from them as possible so as little of the shit as possible lands over here.

Fully agree Jonny.

Everybody going on about how Greece shouldn't have been let join, but since the Germans and French were breaking the Euro rules which they put in from the outset...they couldn't really tell the Greeks to do one !!

Anyway, the idea of the Euro was in effect to let the Germans run Europe, which they failed to to do in 2 World Wars, but this time not shoot one bullet in anger to do it. Sarkozy's been acting as a puppet collaborator ever since he was made President, as he and Merkel has been intertwined.

Cameron has shown some balls for once, and the sooner a referendum is called the better. If we voted to get out of the EU, we would save paying billions to a fraudulent organisation (the EU haven't had their accounts signed off for 15 years), set our own laws, etc, but the EU will have no credibility, as they will be lose one of the biggest economies in the world at the worst time for it.

Has he bollocks, he's done nothing of the sort

The Wall Street Journal is calling Cameron's use of the veto one of the greatest mistakes of all time.  And others are saying it was a masterstroke.  I guess we won't really know until the dust settles.  Personally, I think I'm glad that the line in the sand has been drawn.  It's changed things for sure.  Interesting times.

Agreed, he's not done any such thing. There's fuck all chance of us leaving the single market, just leaving the countries who have exacerbated the problem to sort out their own mess.

I do love the arrogant assertion that the problems can be fixed by even greater integration. Lets just cut loose and if there's a price to pay then lets pay it, get it over with and be done with it.

I meant it as more out than in rather than totally out, though I don't think anyone knows where this will end. There are plenty of politicians around the EU practically calling for us to be kicked out and there is the potential for this to turn nasty.

One thing that is annoying me is the way everyone is rounding on Cameron and Britain. Everyone seems to be pointing the finger at us for acting in our own interests, yet they are doing the same by voting for it. They appear to be lining us up as the fall guy for when it all (inevitably) turns to shit so they can all go fuck themselves as far as I'm concerned.

The simple truth is that nobody knows whether its a good decision or not. We can speculate all we like but the consequences of the decision will unfold in the next few days. Don't forget the EU are happy to go back and back again until they get the asnwer they want

True....I've no idea of the technicalities of this decision, but it does seem to have been taken to protect the interest of Cameron's class...whether this does the rest of us any good, as you say only time will tell (suspect it may take more than a few days, mind)

what makes me laugh is milliband's comments. In the morning he says he wouldn't sign up to it. cameraon does the same, so milliband instantly starts moaning about it

I cant understand miliband.

That cunt needs to learn to speak properly

Most of this is very new to me so I'm sure this is oversimplified, but my understanding of the current situation is:

Sarkozy/Merkel wanted the UK to contribute disproportionately to propping up the whole project (via the Tobin Tax). They must have known that Cameron had to veto that. Therefore the implication is that they're either incredibly optimistic or hoping for that outcome in the first place, hedging against failure by creating a scapegoat. I suspect it's a little of both.

Current discussions seem to centre on how to close stable doors. Useful 15 years ago but not really the most pressing issue right now. As I understand it the 'rules' being laid out are really only guidelines anyway, yet many EU members have already shown they're prepared to break previous legally-binding rules, robbing this new 'gentleman's agreement' of any credibility. The idea of financial penalties for governments who over-borrow seems comically flawed.

It appears that many governments have pushed Keynesian ideas beyond a tipping point, making recovery seem quite unrealistic. The ship seems to be taking on water faster than it can be pumped back overboard. The painful but necessary decisions are being postponed while good money is thrown after bad. But surely we're going to run out of good money after too long? Aren't China already turning the taps off? It feels like 127 Hours. We can die intact or we can grow a pair, admit that the limb is dead, cut it off (as unpleasant as that will be) and give ourselves an opportunity to survive.

The member(s) that are in reasonable health will be dragged down trying to support the profligate and/or lazy. Downgrades follow and finally force a scenario where the debt can no longer be eternally flipped and we'll be looking at a break-up or otherwise significant restructuring. It all feels so inevitable.

Hopefully it's much more complicated than that and I'm missing some key items that tip the balance back?

Well considering this is all new to you, you seem to have outlined the situation very succinctly.

   

If we get out of the EU can we have our bendy bananas back?

"I've no idea of the technicalities of this decision" Say's Reg Smeeton. An honest statement if I may say so which probably sums most of us up to one degree or other. However, you go on to state "but it does seem to have been taken to protect the interest of Cameron's class..." Would you like to expand on that Reg? Smacks of left wing envy to me but I could be wrong I'm intrigued to know what you mean.

As far as I could tell he's turned round and told Europe to go fuck themselves politically speaking if you think we'll give up a large slice of our GDP and tax take to bail out the euro countries who created the shit they now find themselves in for no intrinsic gain for us.

In other words you've lent your mate £500 for let's say a computer. I'll pay you back £10 a week over 13 months to cover interest. Then he finds out he's on short time and can he make that £10 every two weeks and pay over 18 months on the balance, which you agree to. Suddenly he's had to go part time and want's to borrow another £500 to pay off what he owes you and spread the cost of the new loan over two years. You agree to that and then he loses his job. Meanwhile unbeknown to you he's been mortgaging his assets (say his house) to borrow more money which he's been pissing up the wall, buying new clothes, gadgets and foreign holidays etc. The bank are after him and then he comes to you telling you you'll have to agree to show him your finances and he'll tell you what you can and cannot spend the your money on to help him pay the debts you did not know he had on top of the one you knew about. What would you say Reg? One word amongst many would be OFF wouldn't it?

Milliband may of had his sinuses drilled recently but the prick does not know whether his arse is counter sunk or bored such is the shit he comes out with.   

I have no idea if this is a good thing or not. Only time will tell. I am a bit concerned that it could have an effect on future trading within europe, and whether companies come here to create jobs rather than stay within those countries in europe.

Milliband sounds like he is sucking on a lollypop when he speaks imo.

Milliband is like all opposition politicians (regardless of who is in power).

Will attack the Government for making a decision, regardless of whether he would have actually made the same decision.


I agree with arriba, I don't think any of us will know if it's a good or bad decision for a while, and based on the fact that we do more trade within the EU than we do with the rest of the world we don't really want to alienate the business communities.

That said, I'm sure that the business leaders across Europe have more sense than most of the politicians anyway

Cameron has used the term national interest when he means City of London interest....the sticking point in negotiations was the need for greater financial regulation.  Something Cameron and to a lesser extent Clegg, couldn't allow.

Cameron comes from a family background of City stockbrokers....Clegg is chairman of United Trust Bank in the City.

The Tory Party is 50% funded by City donations.

In the 6 years from 2002 to 2008 the tax yield from the financial sector was approximately half of that from the manufacturing sector, which is likely to be the hardest hit by this decision.

Since 2008 £289bn pounds of taxpayers money has been used to prop up banks.....

I don't have a particular problem with this, it's what Tories do and have always done....look after their own interests first.

Financial services accounts for 10 - 12% of our GDP, why the fuck shouldn't he protect it?

Don't be, we're not leaving the single market and no existing companies are going to leave the UK over this.  Some suggest that being outside of what will be a strict tax regime could be attractive. Time will tell on that one.

Switzerland and Norway have done alright for themselves.

I'm guessing you haven't actually seen what the demands were that Cameron made;

- Any transfer of power from a national regulator to an EU regulator on financial matters could be vetoed
- Banks should face a higher capital requirement
- The European Banking Authority should remain in London
- The European Central Bank’s attempts to have euro-denominated transactions take place within the Eurozone, be refused

None of these were doing any real favours for the finance industry nor the City of London, bar protecting jobs. In fact the only one related to greater financial regulation was the banks capital requirement, and that was a negative as he wanted to be able to set a higher limit.

Though I still think Cameron got outmanoeuvred by France and Germany - it's worked out pretty well for them. Everyone has been talking about Cameron using the veto rather than focussing on the fact they still don't have a plan for sorting out the Euro mess and that their treaty (which is going to come in to force far too late to fix the mess) is basically the same rules they originally had for the Euro and promptly ignored.

Labour were in power until May 2010, so it would seem it's also what labour do.

Under Labour the bank bail out package was at one point in excess of £800bn (potential liability).

Also under Labour, over £100m was spent on "city advisors" during the banking crisis.

Labour had their tongues wedged firmly up the arses of the city.

Switzerland is a small country that takes nearly all the general rules set by the EU without any say in how they are set, in return for not taking a beating on their banking rules. Their currency is cripplingly expensive, even by swiss standards.

Norway is made of oil and no-one lives there.

This idea that the UK can be switzerland with nuclear weapons is a Little England fantasy.

Cameron walked straight into a trap set by Sarkozy, partly because he is in hock to a Eurosceptic party and partly because he is slapdash and doesn't prep enough for stuff like this.

Making the debate "Britain v the EU" is exactly what the French want because it pulls all the other EU countries together. Cameron is an idiot for falling for it.

Yet if he called a General Election tomorow he would piss it.......about time someone stood up for the lunacy that prevails in Europe......the majority of buisness people may want us to stay with Europe because of the obvious benefits trade etc....but the majority of other people are sick to the back teeth of it....and that is why they wont call a referendum because we all know what the outcome would be .
Cameron may have his many faults....but i like a bit of backbone.

The EU and the Euro are now a busted flush.

Did the meeting last weekend solve the Euro crisis? No. All they (the Germans and the French)wanted get more control of ALL EU countries budgets and to tax the hell out of City of London to pay more money in the coffers of the EU, despite them not being able to get their accounts signed for the last 15 years, and to send a message that they run Europe now. Cameron has put a spanner in that now. An EU without the UK has no credibility. I say get out now and save billions that can go towards the debt. The EU can go to hell as far as I am concerned.

Agree very much with this, especially the bold section.  I'm torn, to tell the truth.  A part of me is pleased that Cameron has drawn a line in the sand, because there did seem to be a relentless shift towards having more and more of our law made in Brussels.

But I also have a very strong sense that Sarkozy had Cameron exactly where he wanted him.  Sarkozy seems to have a very clear sense of France's place in the world, and what he would like that place in the world to be in future.  Pretty much everything he does in the context of the EU appears (to me, anyway) to be motivated by furthering French national interest...and, to an extent, that's the way it should be.  He wants to marginalise Britain in order to big up France's role within Europe and on the world stage - and time will tell whether he achieves that.

I aldo have a strong feeling that Cameron is no match for him.  Not in his league in terms of experience, diplomatically or intellectually.  Sarkozy and Merkel have been around the block.  They've seen it all before, have huge power bases and know who to call.  We have had an unfortunate tendency in this country for the last 20 years or so of electing politicians to high office before they are ready for it.  Cameron and Osbourne were in their 30s when they became the Tories' top two.  Other politicians who had it too young could include Duncan Smith, Hague, Clegg...some might also include Blair.  We need big beasts, heavy hitters, elder statesmen/women.  Not true in all cases, obviously...but I think the general point stands.

Cameron was screwed whatever he did. Not that I like the fucker.

Problem is Britain has the most to lose by agreeing with financial transactions tax. I can see the point the financial arseholes caused the issue in the first place and so should pay, but no PM could put Britain at such a disadvantage, especially against a backdrop of the  eurosceptic backbenchers.

Its probably a bad comparison, but in the last big depression in the 1930s the UK was crippled trying to protect the gold standard, it eventually couldn't. I wonder if the Euro countries will go the same way.

The reports about Cameron upsetting the French and Germans is just theatrical bollocks.

The City Of London (the square mile bit) is the most powerful financial area on the planet. It's one corner of the world powerhouse that looks after everything - religion, money and military force.

a short list of who's there;

Privately owned and controlled 'Bank of England'
Lloyds of London
The London Stock Exchange
Most British bank HQ's
The Branch offices of over 350 Foreign Banks
70 odd USA Banks
Newspaper and Publishing Monopolies
Headquarters for Worldwide Freemasonry
Headquarters for the worldwide money cartel known as 'THE CROWN'

Sarkozy, Merkel and the other fucking peasant nations that make up the joke that is the EU, are the ones being cut adrift here while the City protects and maintains it's position - like it's always done.

If I had any financial interests anywhere remotely related to - or tied to the Euro, I'd get the fuck out pronto, coz that currency is only going to go one way.

Thank yourself lucky if you're a UK resident, because once the Euro goes tits, things are going to get nasty on the continent.

Don't like him much, but I loved Farage's speech in the Euro "parliament"/ talking shop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkP3IWuJqg8

I think the Daily Mash has it right

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/everyone-still-pretending-they-know-what-they're-talking-about-201112114658/

I don't like the fucker either. Cameron though wasn't screwed because he did actually have a credible option - but he blew it because he failed to take it.

It's important to establish that there was no veto last week because the European Council meeting last week didn't allow for one and because there was no treaty on the table to actually veto. In this Cameron has...erm ...attempted to mislead. In essence you can't veto 'fuck all', as Jack Straw more eloquently pointed out:


However Cameron (if he were competent) did have the option of saying the European Council was not the right place for such discussions and instead called for an IGC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Conference) where he would have had a real formal veto and that way have a realistic prospect of repatriating powers by threatening the nuclear option. But he didn't take that option - he decided to say no to a set of ' vague draft conclusions' and spin it deceptively as 'a veto'.

And we already have a separate veto on the financial transactions tax, again Cameron's excuses don't hold water

The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know

Whether or not there was a treaty last week, it looks like Britain wili NOT be the only one saying 'No'. It is seemingly likely that the parliaments of Sweden, Holland, Denmark and Finland are likely not to ratify it, and Ireland will need a referendum to get it passed...and we know what that normally means.

Even in France there is likely to be a change of heart, as France are due their Presidential election next year, and Sarkozy is odds on to get beat, with the favourite already quoting that he wants to re-negotiate the 'treaty'.

It's not over yet !!

At the end of the day, is the Eurozone still up shit creek?  You bet it is, and the politicians in the Eurozone do not know how to get out of it.

I like the fact that all the EU bashers have completely glossed over the fact that this is a step towards what they want and are just using it as an opportunity to poke sticks at Cameron.

Good post.....except not going to get nasty,but get nastier.
The complete fuck up in the Irish Republic boom and bust is just a taster of what happens when you  put all your eggs into one basket...ie the euro.
I know there is more to it than that but it is no coincidence surely.

....like to see you spout that off to PDC on Saturday

It's not a step towards anything, Cameron hasn't actually done anything. If he had, personally I would be happy to acknowledge it.

Really? Your leader Mr Farage says otherwise.

Well I don't agree with him...

Not many do.  Thankfully.

Cameron is looking pretty clever at the moment. A number of countries saying they aren't happy with signing up to some of the conditions being talked about, Merkel making it clear they want us to stay within the EU (Sarkozy was practically calling for us to be kicked out) and they've now asked Britain to sit in on the negotiations for the treaty. So much for us being isolated.

If anyone is looking an idiot it's Sarkozy at present, especially with the head of the French national bank throwing a temper tantrum about Britain not being on the potential credit downgrade list. Though Miliband has come out of it pretty badly as well, Cameron pissed all over him during PM questions.

Probably already quoted as haven't read whole thread but I liked the analogy of the pro Euro brigade being like someone standing on the quay watching wistfully as the Titanic sails off for America.

My seven year old could piss over Milliband in a debate. Seriously, don't think that the rest of Europe do not realise what Sarkozy is or what he stands for.

One other thing I'd like to throw into the debate is this. There is an awful lot of scare mongering wrt to the loss of jobs if we withdraw from he EU. That's a load of bollocks. If you're remotely connected to business and sales you'll understand the 80/20 rule. For those of you who don't, it means that 80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers. If you lose as few biggies you could be well fucked. So what has this to do with Europe? Well we "free" trade or so say without any barriers with 26 countries, this amounts to 40% of our exports. When shown in the context of how many countries are actually in the world that's ball crushingly dangerous. If the EU implodes as could be on the cards where the hell are we going to get that back? so much for the 80/20 rule.

£50m per day we pay to the EU club. Can you imagine how much of a return we'd get by ploughing that back into manufacturing and the like, to go out and sell to the rest of the world? Those Euro countries who could afford to buy will still do so and we have hi tech industry to do that and the know how to boot. Sure being in a club or a family is comforting but incestuous which leads to inbreeding and inward isolationist tendencies, not a good out look.

Totally agree, the other point is that we import more from the EU than we export to them. So, do the french & germans really want to stop selling their stuff to us. Just look at the number of french & german made cars on our roads.
Plus if were not in the EU we could free up trade with our more traditional partners such as australia, canada, & india