Thetownend.com

Not long till the new season begins and I see this (translated page as can't get on at work):

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fsport&sl=es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

What do you make of it?

I'm not sure I like it to be honest as you lose merit (due to stall/gearbox etc.) if you have to start at the back of the grid/pit lane and still manage to pick up points somehow?  Seems pointless (excuse the pun)

I think its a matter of time before they ruin F1.  Interesting to see how the Brawn GP team get on considering they were coming up with some impressive speeds/lap times during warm up...

What a load of shit about the most wins -  a point is a point and they should all count.

Agreed, it's shit.

Extreme example but I'd say the guy who finishes second for every race should be champion ahead of the guy who wins 4 races but DNFs the others.

They should have just gone with a bigger points gap between first and second, like the old days.

That said, in the last 20 years the person who has won the most races generally has been the WDC. Hamilton being an exception.
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But he had consistency and fought for every place on the grd. I agree with going back to a 3/4 point advantage for winning - 2 isn't enough.

I think most wins is better.

If you are a McLaren fan, and if it is true that the new car is shockingly slow, then this initiative is very favourable, as 2 wins are far easier to claw back than a 20 point deficit.

I'm agreeing with you, not disagreeing!



Alternatively an early pace setter could have things sown up by race 9.

Could go either way I think.

It will make races more exciting as drivers put more emphasis on the win, although it might also get a tad more dangerous. And yeah it could end up with drivers getting little through no fault of their own after an excellent drive.

I can't help to think that it is an attempt to stop such a thing as Hamilton winning again despite their best efforts to do so last season, I am guessing that Ferrari will be in favour of this. But then maybe that's just me being cynical.

Anyway, as soon as I think think of F1 now I can't help but to think of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBWp6Us3oEc

I nicked this from TDVDF, championships that would have changed hands under the new system

CHAMPIONS THAT WOULD HAVE CHANGED
1958: Actual champion: Mike Hawthorne
Most wins champion: Stirling Moss
1964: Actual champion: John Surtees
Most wins champion: Jim Clark
1967: Actual champion: Denny Hulme
Most wins champion: Jim Clark
1977: Actual champion: Niki Lauda
Most wins champion: Mario Andretti
1979: Actual champion: Jody Scheckter
Most wins champion: Alan Jones
1981: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Alain Prost
1982: Actual champion: Keke Rosberg
Most wins champion: Didier Pironi
1983: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Alain Prost
1984: Actual champion: Niki Lauda
Most wins champion: Alain Prost
1986: Actual champion: Alain Prost
Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell
1987: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet
Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell
1989: Actual champion: Ayrton Senna
Most wins champion: Alain Prost
2008: Actual champion: Lewis Hamilton
Most wins champion: Felipe Massa

Which strengthens my "They don't want Hamilton (Or any non-Ferrari) team to win" theory

I am not a huge fan of F1 but I do like it, and I fucking loved it when Hamilton won it besides their best attempts to fuck it up for him.

Fuck it, he (Hamilton) beat them at their own game last season and so he can do it this coming season. I.E. Winning the most races, that would really fucking piss the cunts off.

I'm not so paranoid as to think that it's just to Hamilton up - they just want everyone going crazy for the win but i think it takes away credit for brilliant drives that gain you points, for example when you have a fault and hang on for a few points.

I'm looking forward to see if Brawn GP are as far ahead as the pre-season testing is showing.

I like the the most wins thing.

It means people will have more of a go rather than drive around happy to get the points for a place.

Hamilton wont win anything this year anyway will he,the Maclarens miles away from pace isnt it? Though I suppose its early days.

But don't forget a certain Belgian race which Hamilton was stripped of victory by the FIA which would have reversed Massa winning under the new rules.

I would not be surprised if McLaren aren't up the sharp end come Qualifying at Melborne. Recall the season when Hakkinen won his first title when McLaren destroyed the field in Melborne by lapping pretty much everybody; their pre-season testing pace was shockingly bad. Not saying history will repeat itself, but don't count your chickens......

Most wins = Our Nige would've had 3 world championships! Cheers Batch didn't realise that - for that reason alone I'm in favour.

Still think it's going to be a load of follow-my-leader again though.

And Sir Stirling wouldn't be the greatest driver never to win the championship.

Hope its the opposite of follow my leader and there is a lot of competition for 1st place.

There is a chance that the season could be won early tho if someone manages a a few winning runs making the end of the season boring and pointless to watch.

No to mention people coasting in protecting their engines if they can't win and the likelyhood of dubious team orders protect their 'most wins' car.

That's true! Didn't spot that.

It does seem ridiculous to me to change the scoring system to this extent. I can see the reason behind it, but it seems that it'll be so flawed in practise. I can see the championship being decided very early on, with teams more likely to put their focus on one driver from a much earlier stage in the season.

Still very much looking forward to seeing the absolutely ridiculous looking Formula 3000-esque cars on getting away from the lights at Albert Park though.

On an unrelated note, I hope they bring back Adelaide and scrap Melbourne, it's total shit.

Do you know what would make F1 better?

Yes, a tin-top

Guns, spiked hubs and oil slicks all at the command of the driver and/or pitlane?

Or maybe they could have a system where by if you get within a metre of a competitor the lead car can nominate a piece of Aerodynamics to be jettisoned from the opposition car at 200mph.

Making it two wheeled vehicles only.

Deffo.

THat's silly. The cars would be lopsided with bits of them dragging along the ground. It would be a mess.

I think there's a fine balance between too little overtaking and too much overtaking. That's why I don't like circuit bike racing it's just too easy to pass. Speedway's got it right though.

But even then, probably a lot more interesting than the roundy-roundy all-the-same car racing bollocks it is at the moment.  :D

<I am going to get so much flak for posting this>

[url width=500 height=375]http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/5345887.jpg[/url]

Is it a telescope? I can't see any wheels.

St. Come Du Mont 88mm flak gun.

Preserved in France. It could be used long range to blow away Jenson Button at Flins Les Mureaux in 2011 hopefully.

looks like it'd be shit going round the track.

It's all about the laser in goldfinger. It could leave a mark on the moon! Imagine the advertising potential.

Used during overlord I take it?

Oui.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Albany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Albany)

Yeah, that was cool. I liked it where all of the Yank squaddies were vaporised at Fort Knox. That will teach them to chant things when they are drilling.

Any film that has 'Pussy Galore' and 'Odd Job' in it gets my nod.

Perhaps we should see if we can contact Cubby Broccoli and resurrect the satellite somehow. We could tatoo 'Yeovil Red Was 'Ere' in the Sea of Tranquillity. That would piss Neil Armstrong off no end.

They're faking aren't they? And satellite? Doesn't the laser just fire from earth.

I admit it's been a while since I've seen it. Best bond film though.

Ah yes, you're spot bollock on. The satellite was a reflector, wasn't it?

Hmmm. I don't know how that would work now as wind farms don't produce enough kWH to power such a beast. Perhaps we could just have a small knuckle type L-O-V-E/H-A-T-E tattoo on the International Space Station instead.

Isn't the reflector satellite in goldeneye?

Does the laser actually play any part in goldfinger's master plan apart from one of the better mad Bond extended killing techniques?

Ooh. Possibly betting into fort knox by lasering the doors.

DV will know.

Doh! Just remembered - the laser stuff was in Diamonds are Forever.

Goldfinger was all about an atomic bomb in Fort Knox...

Goldfinger:


Diamonds Are Forever:

ahhh

there we go then.

That's my concern as well.  Could you see Ferrari allowing their no. 2 driver to overtake!

moto gp is far better than F1-fact

No, that deserves a FACT!

Any form of tin-top racing is far better than any open-wheel/two-wheel racing.

Wouldn't matter if they had naked page 3 models as drivers, and jumping over buses on the straights, car racing would still be the most boring pile of shite ever invented.

Excuse me? What do you think golf is?

And test match cricket.

Excuse me?!

I agree cheekbones!! - I dream of marrying James Toseland and riding round in a special motorbike and side car that we have specially made

It's dull. Dull, dull, dull.

I can see going and getting a few beers in might be fun, but not watching it on TV.  I'll tune in for the last 20 overs, that'll do.

Midgets and zoo animals.

I see they have "deferred" the most wins system for a year following protests from the teams.

Sensible.

James Toseland shops in my Tesco, he likes Barry Norman's pickled onions.  Fact stalker fans!

I worked with a guy in the Williams clean room last year. We were the only STFC fans there.

Are you on here???

i just enjoy it a lot more, i don't dream of marrying toseland...doesn't he sounds awfully northern?!

I have a jar of those bad boys signed by the man himself. And they are delicious.....

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fsport&sl=es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fsport&sl=es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Always controversy somewhere.

I'll be interested to see if its a case of "were going to complain because theres new cars faster than we are" or whether they do have grounds to complain.

All clear on the diffuser front, well cleared to race by the stewards anyway:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73915

But.....


The appeal would probably not be heard until after the until after the Malaysian Grand Prix (April 5th). That means two GP results (Malaysia and Aus) would not be known. I'm sure the fans will be delighted.

I'm intrigued by these KERS systems, not sure if they'll make a lot of difference or not. Find out on Sunday morning I guess. Interesting that Williams have gone down a different route to everyone else and used a flywheel.

I find it amazing that there is still always someone in F1 trying to press the self destruct button.

First we get them fucking about with the points system just weeks away from the start of the new season, only to postpone it and go back to the original points system.

Then we have the diffuser row, whilst its been cleared we run the risk of it being deemed illegal on appeal which would result in the first and maybe second races having their results changed.

You'd have thought they would have learnt their lesson after the USA fiasco a while back but no, they just seem intent on fucking it all up every chance they get.

The drivers are all over paid as well. Scalextric F1 cars normally have to have plain coloured helmets, as the drivers want a large wedge of cash to use their actual helmet colouring and logo's (and we're talking 5 figures). Complete and utter wankers, as if they don't get paid enough already.

Nice little article in the paper today about how Nakajima lives in a pokey little flat in Oxford. Only the best 20(?) drivers in the world drive these cars in races, and not all of them get paid stupid amounts of money. Footballers are much worse.

It is possible that the 'diffuser 6' will be allowed to keep their points but the offending design still banned after the second race.

Meanwhile I'd imagine all the other teams will be coming up with their own versions just in case it isn't banned!
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Kers does look interesting, we'll see if it makes significant difference v the weight penalty it will come with.

I say see, presently there is no way for the commentators to know when it is engaged or not. FFS!
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McLaren really do look to have dropped a bollock. If that is right I wouldn't expect to see them improve until the Euro legs come around. And that's 5 races in :eek:
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I see that Bernie has alegedly screwed Braun by veto'ing their application to simply change the Honda team name to Braun. Even though there was no objection by the other teams. Instead they are a new entrant.

OK they lose their pit lot and get moved to the end of the pit lane  - but they forfeit Honda's F1 finances, 22 million euros!

Button on pole, well I never.

Going to be an interesting race tomorrow I think.

I wonder what odds I would get on Brawn GP being discovered to have broken some regulation (other than the diffuser) and getting massive points deductions?

Regarding the points system, its quite simple, they should just go back to the 10-6-4-3-2-1 system that served the sport well for 30 odd years. 8 points for second was always too much, and only brought in to stop Schumacher running away with it.

I havnt watched it since about 2001. Its really not worth worrying about. But Im up tonight, and Im intrigued by a debut team being on pole, obviously a British driver as well, thats fantastic. I wish they had moved the wheels out a bit though (like they were pre 1997) the cars still look stupid.

On the BBC site is extended highlights of the 1986 race, and for me that is everything a season finale should be, a great example of the points system working well. Prost knew what he had to do and drove a fantastically measured race, and also realised that the tire wear was too great not to change tires. He won the race and didnt have enough fuel for another lap. Well worth watching.

Some criticisms of the wages of F1 drivers, but they have always been the best paid sportsmen (if you still call it a sport) and in the past the money has never detracted from the glory or the desire of the drivers. Many of them bankrupted themselves to get to F1, and they do risk their lives.

One other thing, cant wait for Ecclestone to die. Odious little shit. Corruption personified. Then maybe they can get rid of Mosley as well? They did build up F1, but I think they way its been run over the last 10 years has been dreadful. I used to enjoy the sportscar racing in the 1980's and Mosley/Ecclestone decided to ruin that in the early 90's and its never recovered.

anyone watching?

Yes.

button flying! looks like braun's performance wasn't a bluff!

Fair play, pleased for Button and the team!

Good third place for Hamilton, though a bit artificial as that isn't McLaren's true pace.

Not sure I like KERS. Sounded cool in practice, but I prefer a pass under fair conditions not a magic button.

Fair play to Brawn and Button/Rubens. Superb all weekend. Wait for there points to be stripped in 2 weeks time :)

The KERS makes me think that the sport is moving towards Mario Kart style racing

End of the day, its basically the same as the turbo boost buttons of the 1980's and that made for some great racing.

I was impressed with the amount of overtaking anyway. But the new front wings are a menace.

Well done Jenson Button!

Just waiting for the FIA to introduce blue leader seaking shells

There's no way they'll strip Brawn of that victory, if only because that would move Hamilton up to 1st place.

Haha, fair point R4E. I'd imagine it (diffuser) will either be cleared, or found to be 'legal' but not in the spirit of the rules -  and then they'll ban it for future races.

Vettel and Kubica start 10 places down the grid in Malaysia.

Yes Jenson! Quality. Thank you Honda for ploughing in so much time and money into this year's car!

Not sure why they need to change the points system again, it seems to be working well and has led to some close finishes to the season recently. Maybe they could introduce some other titles to spice things up a bit - maybe one based on grid positions (from qualifying) and one based on number of laps in the lead (a la Nascar).

Though I think the best move would be to get rid of qualifying and line them up in reverse order to the way they finished in the previous race, or in reverse championship order. So the best cars are at the back - now that would lead to a lot of over taking. Probably a lot of accidents as well though, as all the twats would be at the front causing problems.

Erm, unless I'm mistaken, Honda didn't...

I think you are mistaken, provided I'm not....

Honda gave up on last years car to develop this years, plus they sweetened the sale (ie give away) of the team by covering it to the tune of £30 million this season (as they'd of been hit by a similar amount if they just wound it up). So I'd say Honda are due some thanks by the new owners, drivers, staff etc.

That's correct. In a strange way Button and co are benefitting from having such a shit car last season.

They reckon they've been working on this year's car for 15 months.

Fair enough. I had the impression that Honda had given up and the new guys had come in and done all the work, but was clearly mistaken

That would've been a hell of a weeks work!

That was always the plan for Honda though. Their car was shit last season and they decided that rather than waste time and money trying to make it competitive they would throw everything in to this seasons car. So they were always going to be better this season, though I'm not sure anyone thought they'd be this much better - its still early days though obviously.

Yeah that's what I meant.

I think it'll be a question of whether they can finance the necessary developments during the season, as well as the outcome of the diffuser issue and whether the FIA realise how stupid this KERS thing is - it's not Formula Palmer Audi!

So Hamiliton has been disqualified from the Aussie GP now then. What's the point of watching the 'races' when the results are subject to change pretty much on a daily basis throughout the following week?

It's because Formula One is a mess. Why people bother watching these days is beyond me - I'm not slagging off the spectacle because it can be in no doubt exciting but the full joy of a podium finish can not be guarenteed until days after a race!!!

I'm usually the first one to defend the sport, but the lack of transparency and resolutions of placings off the track is a joke.

F1 is tying itself in knots.  Who cares about reg 45 (ii) part 9 clause 3b?

People are going to start losing interest if they don't sort themselves out.  Farce.

I now see UEFA/FIFA have confirmed they are investigating the england v Ukraine match from last night.

They have announced on their official website that John Terry's fist to the face of Vorinin was against FIFA rules and that he should not have been on the pitch, i.e. a red card should have been shown.

Therefore FIFA are now looking to award Ukraine the win and the three points.

(Well that's how football would work if the FIA had their way).

Rules are rules (even if they're a bit complicated).

Rules are rules, but when the rules make watching the actual race pretty pointless, then the sport suffers.  The punishment should be on the next race, making the driver push their limits even further.

The rules are a joke. The result could even change again if Brawn loses the appeal about the leagality of their cars.

They say about football, that it's a simple game played by idiots. Well in both footballs and F1's case, that they should be a simple sport, but the rules are refereed and judged by idiots, also.

Because he 'lied' to a steward?

Ridiculous. The whole sport is.

A F1 driver who is liberal with the truth, who would have thought it? Not like the 'cheating square-head'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/5023004.stm

Still, at least it makes F1 slightly more interesting

It's not really a sport though is it?  It's just a big PR/Promotions company.

The season became a joke before it ever started when the FIA announced a rule change regarding the championship standings decided on race wins, and then changed their mind when it broke their own policy making procedure/rules.

If they had been this harsh with disqualifying people in the past I don't think Schumacher would have won any championships at all.

It's not really a sport is it? Snooker, Darts, Chess and Chuckie Egg are all sports, F1 is not.

F1 doesn't descend into farce as so much as dive off a mountain into the Grand Canyon of farce.

Aah, but he drives for Ferrari, so a completely new set of rules would have been introduced just for them!

The FIA bend over for Ferrari!

I partly agree with that, but there's no denying that Mclaren are also taking the piss:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

I wish F1 was more like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7492454.stm

Rather than the result being decided weeks later, it's a fucking farce.

Having looked at the footage and audio between the driver and team, there was obviously confusion as to whether Hamilton should have stayed in 3rd or 4th place which they tried to clarify at the time with the stewards. If they then lied about the facts afterwards they obviously need to be punished but I don't understand why that should affect the results of the race.

The stewards should have made a decision on 3rd and 4th and neither driver should have been excluded. Then separately they should have given penalties for the lying (if there was any), either financial or for the next race.

Fucking about with the results so much after the race is just stupid and one of the many things F1 continually does turning the whole championship in to a farce. It wouldn't surprise me if they revise the results of races and championships from 50 years ago, its the kind of crazy shit they do.

At least the first rounds of the touring cars are on ITV4 this Sunday, which will provide a refreshing change from Formula One.

I agree, but that was 3 seasons ago now.  Hamilton was unfairly treated all through last season and still somehow managed to win.  Ferrari got away with lots of indiscretions last year that had their car have been silver they would have got done for.

How many seasons should Maclaren be punished for before people stop harking back to that season?  From what I heard members of the Ferrari team were not exactly honest, hence the reason that Ross Braun lost his job.  I don't see them constantly getting the decisions going against them.

Totally agree with jonny72. Except I don' think the rules as they stand allow that kind of common sense from the race stewards.


Absolutely, but I'd bet that kind of thing goes on between teams all the time in one form or other. But two wrongs don't make a right granted.

And McLaren do seem to  have ballsed up again now, and looking at it in isolation you'd say the stewarsd probably got it right in the end.

I say probably, because whilst the FIA are claiming glasnost, has anyone actually seen a proper transcript of what was said in the steward's meeting(s)? I've seen snippets of "he said, she said..." and the radio comms/onboard footage  but I have no idea exactly what Hamilton et al said in that meeting.

Either way, in the context of one decision I'm not saying  the right one hasn't been reached. But add it to all the other shenanigans from last year and the diffuser row. The average fan must surely be put off by not knowing if a race result is the final result.

The fact is, McLaren should have been clear on the rules AND been able to get sound and correct guidance during the race.  But having been screwed over in the past they are justifiably paranoid.

Jenson Button will find out if his car is legal tomorrow apparently as thats when the FIA decide.

Have a funny feeling they'll deem it illegal!

it will only be legal once they have painted the car red

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/default.stm

The diffuser is all good then...

Good!

FIA in sensible decision shocker!

The lawyer for Ferrari called Brawn 'a person of supreme arrogance.'

Pot...Kettle...Black !!!

Just goes to show there's a first time for everything!

With the ban on testing during the season it'll be interesting to see if any of the teams use the Chinese Grand Prix as a "testing weekend" for a new diffuser. Could also make this season interesting with the more succesfull teams of recent seasons effectively playing catch-up, and with the rules on the diffuser now clarified, it could be anyone who wins the title (hopefully Jenson).

That's fucking ace. :D

I've always liked Button and with the man who part-masterminded Schumacher's god like status and Ferrari's rise from the ashes, at the helm of Brawn GP, my enthusiasm for F1 has been reignited.

Not since Schumacher retired have i been able to get properly in to F1. All i've ever really cared about (within F1) is Ferrari, but Kimi and Massa are not very exciting. In fact, they're sleep inducing. So the Button-Brawn thing is a breath of fresh air.

I've only been able to get into again since Schumacher retired. Schumacher's cheating ruined the sport for years, most overrated driver in F1 history and so boring to watch them rig the races for him. Much more interesting now he's gone. This is great news for Button and it would be good to see him win since he's one of the most underrated drivers due to having terrible cars for the last few seasons.

:D My sister would try to stab you for saying that. She's still got pictures of him in her house. She also started crying and was lost for words when she met him. I think she still gets upset about it now. I mean imagine it, meeting an idol for the first time and just breaking down and not saying a word.  ;D

I’m not really anything but an occasionally interested observer in F1 and a huge fan of the Natzi whipping chap in charge, Max Moseley.  I’m interested though what any genuine fans actually feel about the sport this season?

I’ve met one or two F1 obsessives of the sort that “support” a team like a football club and buy all the branded tat and I can only describe them as freaks of nature.  That aside I’ve always thought of the sport as prestigious with a glorious, relatively unblemished and important history.  But this season it really does appear to me to be descending into an utter farce in terms of its overall organisation and legislation.

On top of the farce this season overall the sport seems to be in a huge decadency.  There seems to be fewer and fewer teams each year and it seems to be a sport led purely by its financial dick rather than in accordance to any sense of tradition or competition.  The fees that are charged to host a race, if correct, are blood curdling and all it points to is a commercial event available to the highest bidder.

Can anyone see it lasting in it’s current format beyond the next few years?

I see Ron Dennis has now quit McLaren...

edit: Reading the article he is continuing with McLaren's non-F1 stuff.

Not a surprise he has quit F1, Bernie and the Nazi seem to have fallen out with him and it must be taking a toll. F1 isn't what it was for him.

Big loss for McLaren F1  and F1 IMHO, Denis was McLaren F1. maybe the FIA will stop the McLaren witch hunt now (after liegate concludes).

I presume now given that and 'Lewisgate' (sorry I couldn't resist) Hamilton might now be more likely to leave McLaren

I'm by no means a 'genuine fan', but this is my take:

Here's the thing, Renault claim they asked and were told it was a no no. Toyota claim they asked and were told it's OK.  One assumes there were major differences between the design approaches taken.

If this is the case, then the FIA should've got rid of this grey area as soon as they realised it existed (presume they asked the FIA last season or during the close season) and the teams involved should have pushed for a black and white decision. I haven't read too much about the issue in all honesty, as it seems to be the same old thing where the big teams moan about anything they possibly can if they aren't fastest.

The idea I'd got was that the 3 teams had exploited some uncertainty in the rules, and then not long before the start of this season some of the other teams had complained because they had interpreted the rules differently, and that the approach 'the diffuser 3' had taken went completely against the whole ethos of the rule changes (i.e. to significantly reduce downforce).

So Renault are claiming they thought of using split level diffuser but were told they weren't allowed? It can't be a case of two different answers from the FIA to the exact same question surely - or I will cry.

On the Renault claim. But the qutoe was : “It is not that Renault missed the boat, as Brawn have pointed out, it is because the FIA said it was illegal. It was at that point the diffuser was abandoned.”

http://content.usatoday.net/dist/custom/gci/InsidePage.aspx?cId=freep&sParam=34766726.story

Red Bull call foul, but they did not approach the FIA , only Charlie Whiting - he doesn't have the final say:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74483

Toyota claim the FIA was OK with it all along:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7996698.stm

But as I say, the two designs could be different enough for one to be legal and one to be illegal.

I see, cheers. Sorry, I misunderstood your comment on different design approaches.

No wonder I never read the Autosport article - I seem to always manage to read through all the DTM, V8, BTCC, NASCAR, and WTCC news on there before I get round to F1!

Bahrain tomorrow and the grid changes yet again wit a Toyoto 1/2!  Hamilton in 5th.


Jarno Trulli 9 Toyota 1:33.431
Timo Glock 10 Toyota 1:33.712
Sebastian Vettel 15 Red Bull-Renault 1:34.015
Jenson Button 22 Brawn-Mercedes 1:34.044
Lewis Hamilton 1 McLaren-Mercedes 1:34.196
Rubens Barrichello 23 Brawn-Mercedes 1:34.239
Fernando Alonso 7 Renault 1:34.578
Felipe Massa 3 Ferrari 1:34.818
Nico Rosberg 16 Williams-Toyota 1:35.134
Kimi Raikkonen 4 Ferrari 1:35.380
Heikki Kovalainen 2 McLaren-Mercedes 1:33.242
Kazuki Nakajima 17 Williams-Toyota 1:33.348
Robert Kubica 5 BMW Sauber 1:33.487
Nick Heidfeld 6 BMW Sauber 1:33.562
Nelson Piquet Jr 8 Renault 1:33.941
Adrian Sutil 20 Force India-Mercedes 1:33.722
Sebastien Buemi 12 Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:33.753
Giancarlo Fisichella 21 Force India-Mercedes 1:33.910
Mark Webber 14 Red Bull-Renault 1:34.038
Sebastien Bourdais 11 Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:34.159

Ooh another Button win

Good win for Button, made possible by a good start to the race and a great strategy. Button reckons the car wasn't performing as well in the heat so to get a win is great. Hamilton has also done well given how bad the car is, you only have to look at Kovalainen's performances to see how far behind the McLaren car is. Also, congratulations to ferrari on avoiding their worst ever start to a season - still a lot of work to be done though and it looks like Brawn are running away with the constructor's title.

Will be interesting to see if any dramatic changes begin to occur in Europe. To be honest, I doubt it unless MLaren, Ferrari, Renault and BMW can get their acts together

Not a bad GP. Button was a bit 'lucky' Vetel got held up, well lucky isn't the right word but it could have been a lot closer.

Ecclestone is a tosser though. He basically said if Donigton fails to get funding he wont give the GP back to Silverstone.  Petty minded decrepit twat.

His red jacket was good for comedy value, probably not the best to convince people he isn't ferrari-centric though.

They have announced some rule changes for next year, one of which is no re-fuelling in the race.

For me one of the most exciting aspects of any race is the danger of there being a big fire in the pits, and they've gone and taken that away :(

Yes or a bloke getting knocked over or the nozzle getting stuck in.

I also like those big Darth Vader outfits that the re-fuellers have to wear. But they are no more :(

The Re-fuellers union will not be happy about this.

Could work. Does take some of the stategy aspect away from it though but make it more interesting. Also i've seen the 40k cap. Ferrari not happy about it. What a surprise.

Are the current standard tanks big enough to fuel a car for a whole race?

no

40k? That'll be tough!

Seriously though, I know F1 has to change to survive, particularly in a recession, but it seems to be going to far now.

This was a good one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBPOqODqYB0

For all the Senna fans, there is a classic compilation on the BBC site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8028474.stm

Ahhh, proper F1, used to love watching Senna vs Prost and then vs Mansell, good stuff.

Mercedes have bought 75% stake in Brawn.Speculation abounds around Button's possible
departure to McLaren.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8362295.stm

So does this mean there will be Brawn and Mclaren, or just Mercedes Brawn?

It means there will be no Brawn at all. There will be a McLaren, and a Mercedes.

No Brawn, and all brains ?

I think Brawn will go back to making these:

[url width=220 height=220]http://i36.tinypic.com/etrx1t.jpg[/url]

That would be Stephen Hawking GP.

I must admit the prospect of seeing the current and last world champion (both British) driving a British car does sound quality.

I think it would be a terrible move for Button.  McLaren is far to Hamilton focused

I don't like McLaren, but the thought of Button and Hamilton at the same competitive team is quite exciting. I have to agree with manc red though, they're very Hamilton focused, so might not be the greatest move.

On the flip side though, he can shut up any doubters about last season if he was to at least match Hamilton, which i think i think he would. It could be very exciting.

Hamilton is shit though

Name a better driver in F1!

True he has made mistakes, presure does that. Look at Button this season. But he nearly won the F1 championship in his first year and did so in his second. A competitive car helps, but it is a remarkable start none the less.

Luca Badoer or Pedro Diniz

:)

However, they did not have the shittest car...

I give you the Simtek F1 1994 season..

[url width=460 height=273]http://i34.tinypic.com/kf041e.jpg[/url]

So wrong. He might be the best ever in F1, it's either him or Senna.

But to be fair Kovalinen has been shite for McLaren for a fair while now. No wonder they focus more on Hamilton. With 2 competitive drivers they might have more of an open mind much like Brawn did this season.

Having read a bit into this [Mercedes buying Brawn] and thinking about it, Button would be dumb to move to McLaren. It seems that Merc have moved for Brawn because of Brawn. Obviously the bloke is an F1 god and with Merc completely behind their own team, instead of McLaren, it would be hard to imagine Brawn not being very competitive again next season.

Official, Button has gone to McLaren. They put it on twitter so it must be true.

one season wonder!

I think McLaren will piss the constructors next year providing they sort their stops and strategies out.

Schumacher is signing for Mercedes according to Eddie Jordan. Please Schumacher, i know they're not Ferrari, but sign up!

Never going to happen.

I've convinced myself it's going to happen. Other than Ferrari, the only team he'd drive for is one ran by his mentor Ross Brawn. Plus Mercedes were known to be after an all German line up. Fingers crossed he'll be back in F1.

Ill see your Simtek and raise you a Lola

[url width=500 height=217]http://speedracing.50webs.com/raridades/r_lola_1997.jpg[/url]

The bloke who designed that Simtek is designing the Manor car for next year btw

I've been getting a bit excited today, as the Schumacher rumours appear to be not so much gaining ground, but looking less and less like rumours. The Master could be coming back! :D

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/299246,report-schumacher-to-meet-di-montezemolo-over-mercedes-move.html

http://www.mibz.com/3430-its-a-yes-michael-schumacher-returns-in-formula-1-with-mercedes.html

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/246385/schumacher_returns_to_f1.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2009/12/schumacher_returning_looking_i.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8412828.stm

I take back what I said. This story won't go away. Maybe, just maybe there is a grain of truth in it.

I hope so, my weak heart can't take him not coming back for a second time. :) I sorta think, despite what i'm seeing, that your original post is still slightly closer to the truth and i'm getting sucked into some kind of publicity stunt.

Virgin Racing launched today (bought the Manor GP team)
http://www.virginracing.com/

It's a shame they haven't got Anthony Davidson and Takuma Sato as their drivers, I think the team name would have suited them.

I really hope Schumacher gets no points next year. Hopefully people will see how overrated he really is,  the cheat has so little talent compared to someone like Hamilton.

That probably tops the list of stupid things you've posted

:fishing:

I haven't posted anything stupid. You would have to be completely retarded to deny Schumacher was overrated, he won all his championships in great cars, he cheated so frequently and in such ridiculous ways that there's no doubt that anyone doing the same thing now would receive a lifetime ban, on more than one occasion. I mean he won one championship by ramming someone off the road and tried to do the same again, he managed to get away with serving a 10 second penalty after the race had fucking finished and got away with it. Add that to the blocking people in qualifying and the insane amount of team orders he needed to win titles and you'll see his titles were not won by driving skill.

I would say anyone who thinks Schumacher has even a modicum of Hamilton's talent has no idea what they're talking about. The gulf in talent is huge. Hamilton came into F1 and was immediately winning races and managed to win races last year even in a car less competitive than Schumacher had at any point in his career. It's an incredible shame that he's managed to trick the public into believing he's one of the all time greats.

[url width=600 height=186]http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l14/el_boxer/1485-2385-38803.jpg[/url]

Reread my post Batch, as it may educate you and it's far from stupid. He has to be the most overrated sportsman in history. I watched formula one from the start of Schumacher's career to the end and it makes me sick the amount of undeserved praise he gets, there are many idiots who genuinely think he is the best of all time and they just don't have a clue. Fucking Eddie Irvine almost won the championship in 1999 after Schumacher broke his leg, the car was that good! Irvine was one of the worst drivers in F1 at the time. You could put any driver currently in F1 as the number one driver in Schumacher's championship winning cars and they'd win titles too, they wouldn't even have to cheat. Button has shown how much difference the right car can make, from 18th to 1st in one season.

That just sounds like a load of very bitter Schumacher hatred. You don't win 7 world titles with luck, team orders and bad sportsmanship. If you had watched over the last decade, with an unbiased view, you'd see not until his last few titles was the Ferrari the best car on the grid. Oh and in both of Hamilton's first 2 years the McLaren was the best car on the grid and was a million times better than the Ferrari of Schumacher's first few titles for them. And by quite a huge margin in my opinion.

You only have to look at the distance Schumacher often put between himself and his team mates to see that he was an incredible driver. Clearly you hate the bloke, so each to their own and all that. :)

No one knows what they're talking about apart from BWB (This goes for all topics, not just F1.)

Just because the majority of people think he's talking out of his arse and is an opinionated bore doesn't mean he's wrong.

Although he clearly is.

Nope it hasn't. All it has done is reaffirm Schmi did everything it took to win the WDC. That's what world class performers do.

If you want to rant about overrated drivers maybe Alonso would be a good start, or David Coulthard or Damon Hill;)

Describing Michael Schumacher as an all-time great is similar to describing Diego Maradonna as an all-time great. No-one really likes either of them, they have both cheated on several occasions for personal gain, but both had undoubted levels natural talent of which very few have ever possessed.

He won almost half of the F1 World Championships he entered, and didn't have the benefit of starting his career in the best car on the grid. He almost won it in '97 and would've probably won it in '99 had he not bust his leg up.

Schumacher was a big factor in his cars being so good, or does that not count?

That's a great analogy. I have to confess I dislike Schumacher and his smug German face. But still recognise his talent.

As for the crashing to win the WDC, even the likes of Senna and Prost were not above such skulduggery.

I see no-one's mentioned that Kimi's gone to World Rally Championship yet. The Fin's are usually good rally drivers so it'll be interesting to see how he gets on.

WRC could be a bit tasty in years to come if Rossi finally decides to make the switch from MotoGP to WRC full time as well.

Barry, sorry but the ferrari was a great car every single year Schumacher won a championship in it and the bit I bolded is completely untrue - surely you don't actually believe that. By far the most dominant car in F1 history was the 2002 ferrari which was so much better than any other car that no driver from any other team had the slightest chance of winning the title whoever was driving the ferrari. The 2000 ferrari was  the best car, the 2001 ferrari was the best car, the 2002 ferrari was the best car by far, the 2003 ferrari was the best car, the 2004 ferrari, best car again by a huge distance. In contrast, the McClaren wasn't even the best car in either 2007 or 2008, especially 2008 - Heikki is a far better driver than Irvine ever was but only finished 7th in the same car.

It's actually very misleading to look at the distance between Schumacher and his team mates too since every one of his cars was built for him and developed with him and not for his team-mates, who often had very little testing time. It's also well documented that Ferrari used more team orders than any other team so his team-mates weren't even allowed to finish ahead of him even when they were faster but you should consider that in many of his title years his team-mates did finish second even with this huge disadvantage and even though they were poor drivers. Since his debut season he has never had a half-decent team-mate. Irvine, Barrichello, Verstappen, and Herbert - all shit drivers. In 1991 he scored just 4 points in the time Piquet scored 12, in 1992 he had similar results to Brundle who had never won a race.

World class performers don't need to cheat and should be punished when they do. Formula One was so corrupt during Schumachers career, you can bet if another driver had attempted some of the same things the punishments would have been infinitely more severe. Alonso is definitely better than Schumacher, although not up there with Hamilton. Hill was actually very underrated, it's an incredible achievement to only not win in an arrows due to a problem on the final 2 laps when the car was the second worse car on the grid at the time and his team-mate qualified 19th. He was the real champion in 1994 also. Coulthard wasn't that great but was never rated that high anyway.

 :eek: Now I'm sure you are taking the piss. Nice one, you got me hook line and sinker!

Can you explain to me your reasoning for thinking Alonso is overrated? He has consistently outperformed his team-mates with the exception of Hamilton who is the best driver of all time and he has had better team-mates than Schumacher ever did. He's won two world championships without having a car as dominant as Schumacher had. It's pretty obvious if you put him in a good car he will win races and for sure if he'd had the same car as Schumacher and the same status within the team and support with team orders he would have won at least 7 world championships

I have a hunch it's because no one gives a fuck, the useless Finnish cunt

BWB. Please stop. Hamilton's good, but after 3 seasons its WAY too early to make such ridiculous claims. I'm no Schumacher fan, but recognise his achievements in the sport, despite some of his (and his teams) methods. To say he is overrated smacks of clear hatred and a lack of objectivity.

Still, might make next season more interesting. At least my wife will have somebody to shout CUNT at now Ronaldo has moved to Real Madrid......

:)

To say he's overrated is simply being realistic - of course he is. It's the nature of formula one, any driver who had had such good cars and preferential treatment for so many years would be. Are you seriously saying you don't think he's overrated? Ferrari's budget dwarfed the other teams in the early 2000s, they would have won championships with any driver as I already said.

Hamilton's start in Formula One has been without doubt more impressive than anyone else in the history of the sport. To get so close to the title in his first season without even having the best car is just insane. Then he made Heikki look average in his next two seasons. Winning the title when his team-mate, who is a very good driver and finished above his team-mate the season before, only managed seventh is incredibly impressive. Then last season in a terrible car he was still winning races and still finished 5th in a car that was one of the worst on the grid for most of the season.

For me, even in 3 seasons he has demonstrated so much talent that I believe he is the best of all time, Senna is the only real competition, Schumacher is not even close.

Christ, BWB. You can't half spout some shit about a subject when you're blinded by sheer love of one individual (in the case of Crouch) or the dislike of another (Schumacher in this case).

Yes you have, lots of times and thats just in this thread.

No I haven't but you're too ignorant to know any better.

You have. End of discussion.

I agree with BWB

Well I was right about Crouch and I'm right about this. Crouch went on to score 18 goals in 35 games for England and even finish second top scorer in the champions league one year, as well as continuing to score a goal every 3 games in the premiership. He could hardly have proved my point any more emphatically really could he? That must have come as a shock to the many people who steadfastly maintained he was crap and one of the worst players ever to play in the premiership - I suppose in their eyes it was all luck? How crazy of me to argue that he was actually a good player, must have been a wind up. :doh: Sadly the same people probably still won't accept they were wrong but you would have more chance of getting a blowjob from the pope than talking sense in to them anyway.
No I haven't but what would you know? 17,000 posts and I can't remember one worth reading. :)

I don't care whether anyone agrees me me that Hamilton is better than Schumacher, I'm sure he'll prove it given time anyway but surely we can all agree that Schumacher is over-rated? I really don't know how anyone can argue with that if they've paid any attention to the sport at all in the last two decades.

His last post was obviously worth reading as you quoted and responded  ;)

Nah, I respond to posts that aren't worth reading all the time.

Me too, I even find myself conversing with cunts every once in a while. 

<DV, Si Pie, Batch, Reality, axs, BWB>

He is over-rated, but not by as much as BWB is insinuating.

I would love to see Hamilton and Schumacher in the same car on a level playing field, and I believe Hamilton would win.

Alonso would be fifth out of the three.

Thanks for speaking some sense and I'd love to see that too.

How you can moan about Schumi's preferential treatment and then defend Alonso is beyond me. If Alonso doesn't get everything his own way he throws his toys out the pram. Happened at McLaren and at Renault. He's a good driver, but not in the same class as Schumi.

Everyone needs a dominant car to win now.  Hamilton couldn't do it with his comparatively crap car this season. Alonso couldn't do it in a Renault either. 

I like Hamilton, it'll be interesting to see how he does V Button next season. I think he'll beat him, but not by a huge margin.

Hamilton didn't need a dominant car to win in 2008 though. It's true that Alonso likes to be the lead driver but I think he's very good anyway and he hasn't had as many team orders working in his favour as Schumacher did.

BBC reporting Schumi has agreed Mercedes deal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8427552.stm

Elsewhere it is reported he has signed for 1 year.

Surely a mistake to go back at 41?

Woo Hoo! Well, could be a mistake, as will be difficult to be quite as sharp as he was, but i'm pretty convinced he won't be a disappointment. Well i hope he won't, what with BWB being so bitter about something or other.

:)

Yeah but if he does well its because he has the best car and cheats. That's how you win 7 world titles.

:deadhorse:

Well yeah that is exactly how he did it, that's just fact. As I said, I hope he gets 0 points, if the McClaren is even half decent, Hamilton will crush him.

Hamilton is overated. A one season wonder.

I don't think you understand what that phrase means - to be a one season wonder you would only have one good season. Hamilton has had three great seasons, out of 3.

In 3 seasons he's only won the Drivers Championship once.

Poor form.

That's a pitiful attempt. Surely you can do better that?

No! tbh, I don't even like F1 and can't see the appeal of watching cars going round and round.

I'm just having a very quiet 2 weeks at work, so thought I'd spout mindless bollocks.

I like it. It makes me feel like I belong.

Hamilton is not even the best driver in F1

haha, the only thing up for debate is just how much better he is than the second best driver. I think it's a pretty big gap.

At least if someone were to "debate" it with you Ben, they'd be assured of an unbiased and factual reasoning from your side.

True.

Schumacher will finish next season ahead of Hamilton. I'm willing to bet on it.

I'll take that bet.

I concur

Surely you aren't serious? I mean who would you even say was better? I'd say Alonso is second and Hamilton is clearly better than him.

I'm tempted to put money on Button being the more successful McLaren driver next year, I think he's got an excellent driving style, and is a genuine talent.

Well going by the last Drivers Championship: Button, Vettel, Barrichello and Webber are all better than Hamilton. Surely in a sport that is judged by points, you can't deny that Hamilton is statistically worse than the above 4 drivers.

Awaits BWB spouting some shit about points don't matter and Hamilton is still clearly better...

Nah


He will bring the cars into it now Sam the deluded idiot

I see he didn't fancy my bet either.

Surely you mean statistically worse over one season. If you're judging the drivers solely by points, which obviously is flawed, then which driver has the most points out of those since Hamilton's debut in formula one? So which driver is statistically the best driver anyway?

You wouldn't pay anyway. You still owe me £100 on the Peter Crouch bet. The only way I would take the bet is if the money was held by a third party that I trusted. You're a welcher.

What peter crouch bet was that?

This one. http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,7005.msg120010.html#msg120010 I accepted that bet and I won.

Where did you say you accept the bet?

Räikkönen.

Here, http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,4144.msg165828.html#msg165828.

if i read that correctly he never did. Foolish boy Ben

Not only was Raikkonen not even in your list so he's not one of those drivers but he has scored less points than Hamilton since Hamilton's debut anyway....

Nice bump ben. Walrus owes me £200 as we didn't make the play offs.

That's a different thread and over 3 months after DV offered it.

That's like going into a bookies and saying "I'll have £500 on Man Utd to win the league last season"

I agree with Ben Wah Balls.

Hamilton is the best driver in F1, and all the stats back it up.

:)

I know. I just tried to wind you up/provoke more bollocks.

You're like a dog with a bone though, just let it go. People have different opinions, get over it.

Yes but everyone else's is wrong though

It was agreed at the time that the bet was accepted, it was mentioned in threads after that when there was debate over whether it was 6 or 7 league goals he needed to win, in the end he got 8 so a clear win but the point is I'm not betting unless someone else holds the money. If DV really thinks Schumacher is favourite to finish ahead of him ladbrokes would give you about 2/1 on that bet.

He's not even the best driver in his family.

For smoothness I'd say Button is a much better driver, kinder on the engine and tyres. WE'll see this next season when Button out performs Lewis week in week out in the same car.

this thread reminds me of when Ralphy always used to get the hump etc. it seems Ben is now doing the same

I like Button and it was good to see him in a good car last year after having terrible cars for a long time but I don't think he's as good as Lewis but maybe one of the top 3 drivers. Even before F1 Lewis was Gp2 champion, F3 champion, Formula renault champion, european karting champion, british karting champion. A lot of the other drivers won some of those but I don't think anyone has a record as good as him. Will definitely be an interesting season next year though.

I don't have the hump by the way. I don't really take these arguments that seriously anyway.

But serious enough to remember and/or look up every stat possible to back up your argument that Lewis Hamilton is the best driver in F1?

Can we  put this to bed now we have agreed Hamilton bottled the World Championship in his first year.

and was lucky that Timo Glock messed up on the last lap of the season before last for him to win

sorry but Glock had been round that corner nearlly 60 times before that final lap without issue. you really think he messed up accidently?!

he knew what he was doing when he went wide

his tyres went, they were worn out

Sure, I'm just passing the time until I can go home for Christmas.

Oh and Glock took a gamble with his tyres, it worked at first and then he lost some places back  - there was no luck involved there, he would still have finished behind Hamilton if he'd changed his tyres.

We could, but we can also remember is gearbox faultering half way throught he brazil race, and Mclaren keeping him out in china the race before!

Can't see the Mercedes being as good as the McLaren. Schu has been out of F1 for sometime now as well. It's a different kettle of fish now with some very good drivers who perhaps were not around when he was or at least were not in their prime.

We all know the best F1 driver ever was Andrea de Cesaris.

cheating german cunt