Do you believe in god?

[BANGKOK RED]

I'be been thinking about this irony/hypocrisy as well, and I too ain't having it.

If somebody was to say that water runs uphill, we'd say proof it or STFU, and rightly so
If somebody said seriously that the moon is made of cheese we'd say proof or STFU, and rightly so.

If somebody the world is x,000 years old and was made in 7 days we are well in our rights to say proof or STFU.

And I for one don't buy the whole "The bible is open to interpretation" crap. That's a cop out. For so long it was preached as fact and when science makes this so called fact untenable, it is then open to interpretation. What gets me is that if god made the Earth and stuff, he'd know about these things himself. So why is the bible so full of errors.

It's not like taking a stand in politics where what's right or wrong is largely a matter of opinion. It's about logic, reason and fact. That man evolved from other apes, for example, is not just opinion. It is a matter of fact based on an incredible amount of solid evidence.

[Arriba]

that's how i feel about it too bangkok.

i do think reeves took undue abuse and insults in this thread from certain parties. i dont agree with his views but i respect them.

[Ardiles]

The bible, and particularly the Old Testament, was written at a time when scientific understanding was less developed than it is now.  For someone to propose that the earth (or universe) was created in the space of 7 days several thousand years ago was, at the time, a reasonable attempt at explaining the origin of the earth.  Now it isn't.  The only people who believe in a literal interpretation of the Genesis these days are too dogmatic to be taken seriously.  As I said before, however, it is entirely rational, in my view, for someone to believe in a god while not believing in an Old Testament interpretation given by someone 3,000 or 4,000 years ago.

Interestingly, the question about the origin of the universe that Genesis was attempting (badly) to explain, remains.  If Genesis was being written today, the author most likely would not be writing about a creation in the space of 7 days, but about the possibility or likelihood of a divine intervention to create (in a space of nano-seconds) the singularity that led to the Big Bang.

To answer BR's point, I don't see this as a 'cop out' in any way.  Large parts of the Old Testament are both incorrect and irrelevant, in my view.  I could not really be any clearer about that.  But I'll come back to my original point.  Having the humility to recognise that right now, in 2011, we do not know everything should not be seen as shocking, in my view.  And in my view, the existence of a higher force that we cannot see or fully understand is the best attempt I have had to rationalise the things we don't (and probably can't ever) know.  This does not mean, however, that I have to buy in to a literal interpretation of a text from thousands of years ago that drearily explained who begat who.

[BANGKOK RED]

It is a cop out though.......

For so long it was preached the world was x thousand years old, as hard fact. Until the day somebody could say: "well, carbon dating proves otherwise"

Instead of religion coming back with a counter argument, they just say "well, it's open to interpretation". How convenient that all of a sudden things can now be open to interpretation whereas for so long before people were burned at the stake for not following the bible absolutely.

[Ardiles]

It is a cop out though.......

For so long it was preached the world was x thousand years old, as hard fact. Until the day somebody could say: "well, carbon dating proves otherwise"

Instead of religion coming back with a counter argument, they just say "well, it's open to interpretation". How convenient that all of a sudden things can now be open to interpretation whereas for so long before people were burned at the stake for not following the bible absolutely.

Who are 'they' and who is 'religion'?  Yes, there are religious people, some in positions of (religious) authority, who tell you that passages of the bible are open to interpretation.  Others, probably a majority, simply don't believe some of the passages.

Contrary to arriba's earlier point that it is hypocritical to pick & choose the bits you want to believe, I would argue that it would be idiotic for any intelligent, rational thinking human being to do otherwise.  When you reduce an entire body of people - numbering more than a billion, possibly - to 'they' or 'religion', and assume that 'they' all believe in the same thing, with no nuances, you simply demonstrate that you have no interest in attempting to understand the thought processes of the people you are debating with.  And that, in turn, kind of kills the debate.

[BANGKOK RED]

I have never heard any religious person ever say they don't believe in parts of their bible, never. Always just "it's open to interpretation" or "god works in mysterious ways". Not saying it doesn't happen though.

Just because I may be generalizing does not mean that I am unable to take part in this discussion, it seems like a straw man argument to me.

And if people are just picking and choosing the parts of the bible that they like, surely that means they are then interpreting the bible as whole as they see fit.

[Ardiles]

I have never heard any religious person ever say they don't believe in parts of their bible, never. Always just "it's open to interpretation" or "god works in mysterious ways". Not saying it doesn't happen though.

You have now.

And if people are just picking and choosing the parts of the bible that they like, surely that means they are then interpreting the bible as whole as they see fit.

Absolutely.  Anything wrong with that?

[BANGKOK RED]

Absolutely.  Anything wrong with that?

Yes. It's a cop out

[Arriba]

this is going nowhere.i'm not posting anymore in this thread.

[Ardiles]

Yes. It's a cop out

No it isn't.

I'm with arriba.  This is going nowhere.

[Don Rogers Shop]

this is going nowhere.i'm not posting anymore in this thread.

Couldn't help it could you.

[dell returns]

I believe in Jesus.

Was quite a religious lad in my teens, and then had serious doubts about his existence.

About 6 years ago, and a loved one very ill, I needed hope, I started to pray again and it gave me strength to get through some very difficult times.

[Arriba]

Couldn't help it could you.

[BANGKOK RED]

Follow the gourd

[Bewster]

About 6 years ago, and a loved one very ill, I needed hope, I started to pray again and it gave me strength to get through some very difficult times.

This I can understand