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Author Topic: War in Europe  (Read 57258 times)
Posh Red
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« Reply #255 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 09:31:42 »

I’m not saying it does, it’s more about what the US would do if the boot was on the other foot.

Look at history, the US went nuts when Russia had missiles in Cuba, yet they had missiles much closer to Russia already.

Clearly Russia should not be in the Ukraine, just as they shouldn’t have been in Syria and the west shouldn’t have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.

We are being fed information by our media and government, just as the Russian people are being fed by theirs.

I’d like to think ours are more trustworthy, but that’s for each individual to decide
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Audrey

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« Reply #256 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 09:42:10 »

Putin is clearly a nut job, but ask yourself one question about the conflict.

How would the US react if Mexico elected a Russian backed socialist/communist administration.

It almost feels as if NATO keep poking Russia to try and make them react, which they now have, in the hope that Putin will do something stupid so they are justified in taking him out.

Hopefully someone in Russia will do the job for us before too many innocent people suffer.

As for the media/propaganda war, again ask yourself the question how much you trust our media.
Trump (another nut job) raised the “fake news” banner every time something was reported that he didn’t like, but the one thing it did show is just how much public opinion could be swayed by what is reported.
Well, we know how the US reacted when the then USSR were going to base nukes in Cuba. That was of legitimate concern. Russia can hardly feel threatened by Ukraine.

I presume even if Ukraine became a NATO member it wouldn’t involve any present NATO countries basing any of their military there.

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Posh Red
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« Reply #257 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 10:08:00 »

Well, we know how the US reacted when the then USSR were going to base nukes in Cuba. That was of legitimate concern. Russia can hardly feel threatened by Ukraine.

I presume even if Ukraine became a NATO member it wouldn’t involve any present NATO countries basing any of their military there.



Clearly Russia does think that.

Most animals will avoid confrontation until they are cornered.
I just feel the expansion of NATO is going to do that to the Russians, whether justified or not
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Moss

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« Reply #258 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 11:16:35 »

Clearly Russia does think that.

Most animals will avoid confrontation until they are cornered.
I just feel the expansion of NATO is going to do that to the Russians, whether justified or not


Also, at the end of the Cold War, we said there would be no expansion of NATO. We lied. Putin is paranoid about a NATO attack. We have to respect that fear is genuine and they have Nukes.
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theakston2k

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« Reply #259 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 12:02:00 »

Or on the flip side you can say that Putin’s actions are vindication for the expansion of NATO and Ukraine wanting to be part of it. Putin has repeatedly refused to accept the former USSR nations as sovereign countries and has consistently stated that the fall of a the USSR was a mistake that he wants to undo. So you can hardly blame countries for wanting to ensure they are protected from a paranoid dictators nostalgia trip. Putin’s demands are basically that the Ukraine are ‘demilitarised’ and the post-98 expansion of NATO is reversed, I wonder why this is?! Basically so that they are easy picking and allow his perverted dream of a new USSR to happen.

Whatever the faults of the West and NATO, they can’t be blamed for this. Putin has always been a ticking time-bomb and this will have always been in his plan. The will of the Majority of Ukraine people is clear in that they want nothing to do with Russia and that should be respected and they should be allowed to choose who they align with to defend this right. Putin has repeated shown he’s open to land grabs & has no respect for lockdown life with the use of chemical weapons & other illegal weapons so with a neighbour like that Ukraine have every right to try and protect themselves.

The big fear for me is that Putin will deploy a low yield tactical nuclear device in Ukraine to try and make a point, he knows the West wouldn’t respond military wise to a tactical strike but it would spread fear around the world. Ultimately this whole situation proves that our nuclear deterrent is far from a waste of money and is unfortunately a necessity.
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4D
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« Reply #260 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 12:10:00 »

Russia are the aggressor here, let's not forget that.
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Wobbly Bob

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« Reply #261 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 12:43:20 »

The deterrent is pointless if it doesn't deter, even a tactical strike as T2K suggests is not an impossibility.

Would that or the use of chemical weapons be seen as crossing the line by NATO?

Also mention made of on here of a face saving solution for Putin via negotiations.
I suspect that's not very high on Ukraine's list of priorities when it comes to getting round the table.
Continue to hold the Russians up, look for local ceasefires for humanitarian purposes where possible, but the main thrust should be get the fuck off our land & pay reparations when you've done so.

Giving up on Crimea & the breakaway regions might be an option, but no more & why should they.

The war could drag on for weeks & months yet.
Levelling cities will make for protracted urban warfare and big loss of life on both sides.

Could the UN step in & try and broker negotiations?
Tricky when one of the permanent "security" council members is driving the conflict and another has yet to openly condemn them.


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RobertT

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« Reply #262 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 15:53:27 »

This has fuck all to do with NATO.  Put in doesn't give much of a fuck about that other than toying with the members from time to time.  This is to do with two linked things, his known desire for Empire and Ukraines push to join the EU.  He can't let that happen if he wants a new map drawn and be a Legacy maker.  He's a fucking Psycopath with a desire to go down in history.
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BambooToTheFuture

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« Reply #263 on: Saturday, March 12, 2022, 15:54:51 »

This has fuck all to do with NATO.  Put in doesn't give much of a fuck about that other than toying with the members from time to time.  This is to do with two linked things, his known desire for Empire and Ukraines push to join the EU.  He can't let that happen if he wants a new map drawn and be a Legacy maker.  He's a fucking Psycopath with a desire to go down in history.

Yep. Said it myself a while back in this thread and elsewhere. Putin fears democracy - not NATO.
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'Incessant Nonsense'

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There's a threat, you end it and you don't feel ashamed about enjoying it.
You smell the gunpowder and you see the blood, you know what that means?
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Robinz

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« Reply #264 on: Monday, March 14, 2022, 09:38:51 »

Have just seen on You tube     Ukraine on fire

Would be interested to understand what others would make of this Oliver Stone documentary made 2016

   
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RedRag

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« Reply #265 on: Monday, March 14, 2022, 11:45:43 »

NATOs foremost member/leader, the USA, has been actively involved in regime change in Ukraine for 8 years or so, helping it with its conflict with the ethno-Russian separatists in Donbas.  This has notably included a policy of arming and training Ukraine.  Supported by the UK.

Who reliably shares or even knows Putin's thinking behind this latest invasion?  Whilst I agree Putin will doubtless have been discomfited by Ukraine's drift towards the EU, it is difficult to see how the military involvement of NATOs leading member in Ukraine can be safely discarded as having had any influence on Putin's latest invasion.

I think there will have been multiple factors that have led to this.  Lessons from the past need to be learned and the invasion demonstrates that mistakes have been made.

However, I find it disappointing that so many Western political factions are still trying to profit at the expense of their rivals (Democrats and Republicans, Leavers and Remainers, EU and UK).  They have all contributed to the mistakes, imo.  They now need to dial it right down and focus on the common enemy, keeping any inevitable differences between them behind closed doors.  There is but one murderous cunt here.
« Last Edit: Monday, March 14, 2022, 11:49:11 by RedRag » Logged
RobertT

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« Reply #266 on: Monday, March 14, 2022, 11:55:46 »

NATO is a very convenient excuse for him, and we've given him that.  His desire for Empire long precedes this moment though and the original incursion into Ukraine was timed after their desire to join the EU was mooted.  He can't have a bit of his Empire joining up to a democratic club that would far exceed any influence he could hope to have over the region and he certainly can't have brothers/sisters/cousins of his people giving true democracy a go.

It's true that none of us know for sure, but Putin is not some random nutjob, he has laid bare his inner thoughts over the years and published/said plenty to point to the direction he is now taking.
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BambooToTheFuture

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« Reply #267 on: Monday, March 14, 2022, 13:47:49 »


It's true that none of us know for sure, but Putin is not some random nutjob, he has laid bare his inner thoughts over the years and published/said plenty to point to the direction he is now taking.

Yep. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey. He's been testing the waters and pushing the limits for ages. Each time being a little more confident.
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'Incessant Nonsense'

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'I'm gonna tell you the secret.
There's a threat, you end it and you don't feel ashamed about enjoying it.
You smell the gunpowder and you see the blood, you know what that means?
It means you're alive. You've won.
You take the heads so that you don't ever forget.'
Qunk

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« Reply #268 on: Monday, March 14, 2022, 18:50:26 »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60736185

BBC being all investigative journalistical. Bit late chaps
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Robinz

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« Reply #269 on: Monday, March 14, 2022, 19:29:12 »

So the question should be what happens after this latest challenge ends
I can see the NATO led by USA push a weaken and angry Russia with a Ukraine dividend towards China due tmainly to. stupid sanctions  that need to be scrapped as soon as possible  China will get the oil and all the food that their nation needs at present including a nuclear arsenal on a plate so to speak from Russia
North America will survive with their food basket In tacked and economically sound due to the sales of military arms.
Europe will be still reliant on others for Oil Food and financial support from China including a weaken Russia and the Middle East including the States.
The clear winners will be Boris and Andrew as their Party gate and it could not be. me cos I don't sweat excuses are far less important than the news of who will press the red button first.
Fucking hell what strange world we all live in.
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