who are you voting in the euro elections?

[jonny72]

Why does everything have to be all uniform?

It doesn't. But there are certain things that all people should have such as democracy, human rights, health care and so on - the EU enforces those things on all countries. Most of the eastern European countries have had to make major changes in these areas before they were (or will be) allowed in. In exchange they get support, especially financial, access to the EU market and other things. Don't forget that we'd most likely be providing financial aid to these countries anyway.

I just can't see how any human being can object to the EU on the above grounds.

[herthab]

It doesn't. But there are certain things that all people should have such as democracy, human rights, health care and so on - the EU enforces those things on all countries. Most of the eastern European countries have had to make major changes in these areas before they were (or will be) allowed in. In exchange they get support, especially financial, access to the EU market and other things. Don't forget that we'd most likely be providing financial aid to these countries anyway.

I just can't see how any human being can object to the EU on the above grounds.

It's a bit of a simplistic view though, isn't it?

All people should have democracy? Why? it's only one form of government, there are others you know.

Human Rights? What bench mark is used to gauge this? Different cultures have different views.

What you're actually advocating is the 'Westernisation' of the whole of Europe. If I came from an Eastern European Country I'd think you were a bit of a patronising twat.

[Phil_S]

The common market itself, which is what we voted for in the 70's is good in theory. Unfortunately in practise it involves trade barriers, the common agricultural policy & subsidies. This means that the poorer countries of the world are at a massive disadvantage when they want to trade with us, it adds £25 a week to the avaerage families food costs, & wastes billions.
This has now evolved into political union which the majority of europeans do not want. The french want to stay french, the germans german etc etc etc. Most of the legislation is put together & approved by face less, unelected euro crats who if faced with an obstacle (such as a democratic vote) merely ignore it, change a few words & put it through the back door. The attitude is we know better than you peasants. The european paliamnet is just a talking shop with very little actual power
I see europe as a gravy train run by the political elite, (jobs for the boys). It is corrupt, unaccountable & undemocratic. I see very little about it that deserves any support.

[Spy]

What you're actually advocating is the 'Westernisation' of the whole of Europe. If I came from an Eastern European Country I'd think you were a bit of a patronising twat.

Yeah its like the US invading Iraq to enforce freedom. Except without all the war so it is pretty different. But anyway I don't think the people of Eastern Europe need the EU to be like a knight in shining armour to come in and save them. I think they can improve their living conditions themselves. So long as people trade with them and they will anyway.

[Phil_S]

Yeah its like the US invading Iraq to enforce freedom. Except without all the war so it is pretty different. But anyway I don't think the people of Eastern Europe need the EU to be like a knight in shining armour to come in and save them. I think they can improve their living conditions themselves. So long as people trade with them and they will anyway.

I'd rather have free trade with other (poorer), countries & give them a chance on a level playing field. It annoys me that we give aid on the one hand that may or may not reach the people, whilst on the other hand we impose tariffs on their trade with us.

[jonny72]

What you're actually advocating is the 'Westernisation' of the whole of Europe. If I came from an Eastern European Country I'd think you were a bit of a patronising twat.

A poor choice of words on my part. The EU doesn't enforce any of that on anyone, there are rules and regulations if countries want to join but its up to them whether they do or not and a lot of eastern European countries have chosen to. Lets not forget either that most of those countries are coming from a form of communism / socialism where they had little to no say in how their countries were run and a pretty shit quality of life.

Technically democracy isn't a form of government, it's about the rights and freedoms citizens have. The UK is a constitutional monarchy, which is a form of democratic government.

[Simon Pieman]

Do the EU laws really change our national identity and shape the way we live? I think most of it is to bring standards of living up to speed in other countries. In my opinion (it is just that) it's better than bunging a load of aid to them and letting them get on with it. But that's really a different matter, from a UK perspective I have personally not come across any EU law which has directly affected me in an adverse way (to my knowledge).

There seems to be a lot of EU Health & Safety bashing done by the media and the public but a large proportion is just myth. The 'AbsurdEU' blog which the UKIP site links to is an example, the majority of that blog is utter bollocks.

I think the major issue with the EU is the cost factor, which is yet to be established. UKIP's conservative estimate is simply the amount we pay to the EU each year, the net cost to the UK is a third of that figure. That could still be too high when you consider what is actually done by the EU.

The irony for me is that the public seems to be bashing British Parliament and Brussels in equal measure, yet the alternative to Brussels is completely our Parliament and relying it to enforce sensible measures in a competent way. I honestly think there would be enough to moan about in both scenarios and the whole EU debate is a bit of a storm in a teacup when you consider the bigger picture.

[jonny72]

The irony for me is the UK, or if it Britain, or Great Britain, or whatever it is. We have a number of countries, each with specific needs and wants, with different cultures, different values and different languages (sort of) who are all ruled primarily from a central and shared parliament.

What difference is there between the UK and the EU other than size?

[jonny72]

Daniel Hannan, Dr Seuss'ing Gordon Brown's ass....



I'd love to see Cameron give Hannon a safe Tory MP seat so he can get him in the shadow cabinet. It would be a laugh and it would go down well with all the Euro sceptics.

[chalkies_shorts]

What difference is there between the UK and the EU other than size?

Not much - the English pay for both.

[RobertT]

The common market itself, which is what we voted for in the 70's is good in theory. Unfortunately in practise it involves trade barriers, the common agricultural policy & subsidies. This means that the poorer countries of the world are at a massive disadvantage when they want to trade with us, it adds £25 a week to the avaerage families food costs, & wastes billions.
This has now evolved into political union which the majority of europeans do not want. The french want to stay french, the germans german etc etc etc. Most of the legislation is put together & approved by face less, unelected euro crats who if faced with an obstacle (such as a democratic vote) merely ignore it, change a few words & put it through the back door. The attitude is we know better than you peasants. The european paliamnet is just a talking shop with very little actual power
I see europe as a gravy train run by the political elite, (jobs for the boys). It is corrupt, unaccountable & undemocratic. I see very little about it that deserves any support.

If you voted in favour back then, then you voted for membership of an organisation that at it's heart was clearly stated to be seeking social and economic union amongst it's member states.  the principal being that some of the problems of "unfair" distribution of wealth and social cohesion that exist in the world can be solved at a higher level.  So it was always supposed to be about the rich countries being able to help the poor and have a layer of legislation around social justice (Human Rights - often used by people in the UK).  The only change in policy I can detect is a desire to move into Defence Policy.

Entierly different debate to whether it's been well run or not, but in fairness, complaining about the Eu trying to get laws passed, taking money in and spending it elsewhere, is odd considering it is waht it was set up for.  The fact our Politicians sold it as something it patently was never supposed to be, says more about our Politicians that European ones.

There's plenty to debate about how they've come up with the laws and how the policies have worked, or not.  That's very different though. It's a simple IN and try to influence, or OUT because you fundamentaly disagree with the principal.

[chalkies_shorts]

The fact our Politicians sold it as something it patently was never supposed to be, says more about our Politicians that European ones.

It says more about how they felt the true meaning of membership would have gone down with the populace. If its so good then why not come out with it instead of subterfuge.

[RobertT]

Agreed.  I'm pretty Pro European but the whole concept was sold the wrong way, which means it will never equal what people thought it would.  As people are pretty negative towards politics anyway, that means it will probably always be looked upon negatively by the UK population, at least for another generation or so.  It's also not helped that they haven't moved to the Parliament taking control of the legislative side of things, which is where it should naturally go.

The worry for Europe is not whether we like it or not, but more whether the same mistake is being replicated in Eastern Europe.  Sure, they'll get a number of years of benefits, but how will they react once a more level playing field is reached and the subsidies begin to recede?  have they informed people in these countries that it's not an everlasting prop up but a way of bringing them to a level.

[Bennett]

tee hee!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091605.stm

[axs]

A Bad Egg:

[url width=300 height=214]http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z84/axs0/badegg.jpg[/url]