Thetownend.com

Hello all,

Just a reminder if you can make it, please go to the Trust AGM tonight, even if you aren't a member you can hear their plans for the future and decide if you want to be part of it

They can't promise to lift the embargo, but it should be an enlightening evening with some like minded fans. I'm lead to believe a significant figure from our recent past is going along, and he's not Italian.

Hint: it's Jeremy Wray. Allegedly.

I cannot make it so hope it all goes well, will be interested to hear what plans the Trust have going forward, has their been any contact with the new board as yet?

The recent events have put things into perspective especially the anger that the board may not have £30k to cover an old debt.

I am totally playing devils advocate here as I fully support the Trust's aims, but on the basis of membership fees to cover £30k that would need 6000 members to cover that alone. I support any form of fans ownership but how would something like the Trust achieve this?

Nemo is going to look daft when Milan Misun strolls in.

Horlock, I think the Trust have a few ideas about this, but I don't want to pre empt them, sure this will be discussed tonight and fed back to those who can't make it ASAP.

There's a Milan Misun in all of us PWP.

The Trust need to sort out their website in my opinion. This is by no means a dig, but I know a lot of fans have always assumed they have a hidden agenda* and by not having much detail in the public domain it's tricky to disprove this.

* Quite what the fuck that would be I don't know, I certainly don't have this view.

Will minutes be taken & posted on the trust website. (Or here)?

I'm not organising it, but I think they will be. I'll put on here as soon as they are available.

Sorry pets, 6:30 is too early for me :(

And for out of towners it would be very hard. Maybe the next one could be on a matchday?

Jed did say the old debt referred to has been paid off!!  As have all other debts, mind you he did say we would be out of embargo . . . . .

If Wray is there, tell him to get on the blower to his mate Paolo to tell him to stop being a cunt.

Do you think they've stopped going out for dinner every night though like Paolo said they would?

Who knows

But somebody should tell Paolo he's humiliating himself on the Swindon chat forum

Paolo won't be told anything, you should know that. :-)

Well for what its worth, i will be there.

I bet he's never lost an argument on the internet.

I saw via email today the newest site crashed recently(ish) and the old one is currently in use ,whilst it's sorted.

Any update from anyone who went would be appreciated....

Nothing yet via email from the London boys I know that are there.

If they're still there and have been on the Arkells all night I wouldn't want to be sitting at a desk opposite them in the morning.

A Town fan who has not long left the AGM has just said " Great evening, very positive "
No more info at the moment but a good start.
Someone ask the washbag if anything enlightening to come out tonight and the washbag said " lots,find out tomorrow :)"

Let's just say, I won't be holding my breath

Why be so vague if you went? Doesn't help the rest of us much.

The only thing we do know is that RWB red won't be trying to suffocate himself!

Don't know whether that's a good or bad thing.

The AGM was extremely positive about organising itself to become much more activein pressing on ther board, formally, the views of the fans, and that this needed to be done in quick time.

Pressing which views and through what means?
Who was the special guest?
What kind of turn out was there?

Should hear more soon, emails with info on last night are starting to filter out. JW was in attendance though.

I've never been to an AGM before so cant say whether it was good, bad or indifferent, but there were about 25 people there altogether.  Included in the number were Jeremy Wray and Justin Tomlinson MP.  A lot of concern expressed about lack of or misleading information, and a strong desire to obtain open and regular access to the Board, leading in due course to a fans' rep on the board, and possibly in the long term - and they mean the long term - a larger shareholding in the club up to the 20 - 25% which would give them a legal say in the corridors of power.

 Interesting that J Wray was there. Could he be the new Bill Power?

In a word no, from what I've heard.

Disappointing...

Anyone shed any light on what was discussed last night? Did Wray know much/have an opinion about the new board?

As I said above, there were very strong, critical views expressed about the current situation by most speakers.  It is up to those who spoke to say what they want to say, and certainly not up to me to attribute any particular comments to any individual present.

I'm not sure there was anything talked about last night which isn't doing the rounds.  There are already conversations on multiple threads (on this forum) on can we trust the new board, what funding is available, but it gets a different perspective with the background of the people who were attending.
Given it's the Trust's role to ask these kinds of questions, we should expect to hear from the Trust soon on what it intends to do to get the transparency we all want and with it some reassurance that we're not now owned by a bunch of clueless money-grabbers.

I hope he's developed some bollocks if he is.  Don't thinks he's that rich is he?

The last trust meeting I went to I got on the phone to Bill Power and asked him what his favourite cheese was (brie), me and mr spacey also doctored the minutes to remind everybody how great we are. Was this one as fun?

On a more serious note, what was the attendance like? (might have been asked, browsed very quick over last few pages)

Haha I remember that, with Yeo as well. I think I was tasked with distracting Fred Elliot but the cider tap at the bar was doing a better job of it.

The man speaketh the truth  ;D

It's pretty crazy that I look back at that time with fond memories, given that it was one of the lowest points in our football history.

I was only thinking that yesterday

Shit times indeed, but perversely satisfying when they eventually fucked off

Many of us older fans have the same feelings when the shit hit the fan in the mid 70's...real grim times but some fond memories of certain matches and events at the club...same in the 80's.

So they more or less discussed what we do then?
We should call ourselves the TEF trust as without seroius money both are equal really. looks to me that people get more feedback from the club via Twitter or in pubs anyway.

I've never understood what the trust does or achieves, other than providing a few random quotes for the Adver when they need someone with an opinion. Having an AGM and keeping what was discussed a secret doesn't help. Neither does having a manifesto.

The only way the constant boom and bust cycle will be stopped is fan ownership. No one seems to even be discussing that, let alone taking any steps towards achieving it. The trust share ownership scheme doesn't count either, shares in the club are pretty much worthless and have been for some time - you're basically just pissing the money down the drain.

The Trust (if I make speak on its behalf, which I probably shouldn't) would love fan ownership and does talk about it. Unfortunately the sums of money involved are unrealistic: you'd need to have a money man, even when the Trust had a serious offer for the club it was basically relying on the generosity of Bill Power & Phil Emmel. Perhaps you could run a well-run, well-supported League Two club on an even keel, but football beyond that level is very much a rich man's game.

The Share Ownership scheme is a step towards at least fan representation, which while it isn't ideal, is notably more realistic than ownership in the short to medium term without a significant shift in the football finance playing field.

The Trust is there to represent the fans, but this can only be done effectively if the fans buy into the Trust.

Ideally the Trust would have a voice at board level, and provide checks and balances as well as fan opinion. Some clubs have embraced this, so its not pie in the sky.

I don't think the AGM is secret. Not seen an email of the minutes yet though.

I'm with you on this and have expressed that on here previously. This board will shaft the club eventually in one way or another. They may have already done so.

I disagree.

With a fan owned club I think you'd get a lot more buy in from local business, the council and the community as a whole. Mainly as there wouldn't be someone trying to make a profit from it and there wouldn't be large sums of money being pissed away. For example, with a fan run community type ownership there is a (albeit very small) chance that Nationwide would become heavily involved - it kind of fits in with their beliefs and business model.

On top of that there are plenty of ways in which money could be saved to reduce overheads. For example, some currently paid positions could be filled by fans working for free especially the match day roles.

Add to the cost saving a reduced level of expectation from the fans (as we're not reaching for the stars but at least we own it) and I don't see any reason why you couldn't have fan ownership without an investor and still compete at the level we have historically been at (League One with occasional visits to The Championship).

Besides, without fan ownership it is a matter of when and not if it will all turn to shit again.

The minutes were always posted on the trust website. Not sure if that is still the case but your illusion that it is some form of secret is so far wide of the mark it's unbelievable.

Which ties in with your second point. Part of the manifesto of the trust is to promote transparency so not to publish minutes etc would contradict the mandate the members give to the board.

You have not really looked into this very well, have you ?

Can't see any minutes past or present on their website. Surprised there wasn't more of a discussion on here about what was said, I'd have expected them to put something out by now. Didn't see an agenda either which you'd expect to see in advance of an AGM. Get a general feel it's some kind of secret society, not saying it is just that it's my perception.


It's the use of the word manifesto I was taking issue with. For me it has negative left wing and activist connotations, which gives me an impression of the people running and involved with the trust. Again, just my perception.

Post 1 from this very thread:
Just a reminder if you can make it, please go to the Trust AGM tonight, even if you aren't a member you can hear their plans for the future and decide if you want to be part of it



Hardly a secret society

Yes, a manifesto is a very left wing thing

http://www.ukip.org/page/ukip-manifesto

Or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamworth_Manifesto

As a first time attendee, and recently-joined member, I can assure you that there is nothing secretive or exclusive about the AGM at least!  I just turned up, as did a number of others, some of whom were not members.  There was no requirement to be so.  The discussion which took place was inevitably dominated by the strange goings-on over the past six or so months at the club.  A lot of passion was expressed, and a very strong desire - as i posted earlier on - to hold the present board to account, and to demand open, transparent communication, including regular, formal meetings with representatives of supporters.  The desire is to ensure that this is done in collaboration with other supporters' organisations, and Townend was mentioned as one forum where serious discussions take place (one of the fora which, despite what may be said publicly, has been regularly read by those in power).  There was a determination - possibly slightly softened by the final outcome of the embargo - to challenge the board on what has been happening in the past weeks, and there was talk of a leaflet at todya's game, but given the timescale that was impractical.  They are determined to seek a place on the board, and to move in the direction - long-term - of a real and explicit part for fans in the running of the club.

I don't think there was anything else that I can report which would elucidate anything any more, apart from reveal what different individuals said.  That is inappropriate.  I suspect many of those present write on here and they can speak for themselves.  We were assured that minutes would be posted on the website in due course.

Agreed

It's not like they have got jobs or family or anything.

Are you Maverick per chance ?

Let me cut to the chase here

Why don't you join them and find out for yourself

Not been to a meeting for some time can anyone confirm if the hand shake remains the same? and is it left or right trouser leg that I need to roll up?

I'll tell you at the real AGM, not the public façade ;)

I'm definately pro trust, Just don't think they have alot of clout. Their intentions are good so fair play to them

Needs to get past the 1000 members mark to have any muscle IMHO

I may be speaking out of turn but,

The trust should have pushed on to get closer to the old board than they did. This was probably because we were in a really comfy place with regards to how we perceived to board to be conducting business.

To me, that was exactly the time to push for closer unity between the fans and upstairs.

Unfortunately, it's human nature to "not rock the boat" when things appeared so right

That should have been exactly the right time to develop a working party and have some input

I am not saying it was down to fan apathy, more of a scenario of " thank fuck we got that lot out, this lot have bought stability. I am going to sit down, have a beer and enjoy this for now"

I am fully behind the trust.

However I did object to their toothless and premature demands to the board (before the takeover was confirmed) a tad off putting.

They'll be a brief summation posted as soon as it's been agreed by the board.

There was probably no discussion on what happened, as asked by Jonny, as JW asked that what he said in the meeting, he didn't want to go on public forums

There is no secret society. We invited anyone to come along. We posted about the AGM on here, Twitter, in the club programme, and it was in the Adver on Tuesday.

As Fred said we've all got jobs, and I hardly have very much spare time myself. For the first time in 6 years we've now got more than 5 board members, so hopefully we'll  be able to update the website more. In regards to the website, we had to start from scratch after the old one collapsed, and we lost all the data from the old website. On the old website we were one of the few Trusts to post our accounts on the website, and I hope they'll be on there again soon.

Right here goes...a lot on here shouting the trust down(in a respectfull way)

Fact is if you and me joined the trust and had our say then maybe they would have a lot more clout.

Fully respect the trust and there goals.....even if at times i dont agree with them.

The moral of the story is if you want to hear whats discussed and care go to the meetings and make your own mind up,don't sit and wait on the internet for a distilled version of things..be proactive.

Prey tell me

Who do you think on here (apart from Johny) have shouted down the Trust, even in a respectful way ?

And what aims of theirs is it you don't exactly agree with

Would love to know

I didn't shout anyone down and my apologies if my comments were taken the wrong way and I offended anyone.

I'll keep my opinions to myself in future, on the trust at least.

No.

Please don't

That way you are just perpetuating your own theories surely

This is a forum for goodness sake and this is exactly the type of thing that should be debated here

But I'm LAAAAAAAAAAAZY

I realise that people have jobs and little spare time etc. but that was about three years ago.

Further info for you guys

TrustSTFC News: AGM Report
MARCH 30, 2013 BY THEWASHBAG LEAVE A COMMENT

The TrustSTFC AGM was held on Wednesday 27th March with about 30 members present, including Justin Tomlinson MP and Jeremy Wray, former Chairman of Swindon Town Football Club. The meeting took place against a the background of a revival of interest in the Trust and the debate mostly focused on a Trust manifesto for 2013/14 circulated to members prior to the meeting.  This was endorsed with the following three main objectives, short, medium and long term:

Short term: Get owners of STFC to state whether or not they are investing enough to keep the club solvent.  This was agreed before the club statement during the evening that the £1.2m required by the Football League had been deposited, so it was decided to give the Trust board flexibility in pursuing this.  The following day the Football League lifted their embargo but The Trust still need to know if the owners will continue to invest in the club beyond this initial amount and whether they are taking money out in the form of salaries or consultancy fees.  This will be pursued, but the board will use its judgement over when and how.

Medium term: Establish regular, formal, minuted meetings with the club board leading to having supporters’ representatives on the club board.  It will be important for the Trust to demonstrate that the fans speak with one voice, hence the Trust should seek a closer relationship with the Supporters Club.  Roger Bunce, Supporters Club Chairman had accepted an invitation to attend the AGM but was prevented by illness.

Long term: Increase the Trust’s shareholding in STFC.  Jeremy Wray pointed out that if there was a main shareholder or shareholders who wanted to prevent minority shareholders becoming too influential they could issue more shares, buy them themselves and dilute the fans’ shareholding.  It was therefore decided not to make this an immediate priority.
It was also agreed that in order to take maximum advantage from the increased interest the Trust must become more professional, particularly in communications internally with members and with the media.  BBC Wiltshire had a reporter at the first part of the AGM and Trust Chair, John Ward, was interviewed on the BBC Radio Wiltshire Breakfast Programme the following day.

The meeting elected two new members to the Trust board, Simon Brooks and Steve Mytton, to serve with the existing board members, Alan Jones, Cliff Ponting, Paul Robson, Ron Smith, Phil Stokes and John Ward.  It instructed the new board to draw up a business plan to implement the manifesto and pursue the main objectives, reporting back to members on progress.  Trust members with specialist skills will be co-opted to working groups, the first on internal and external communications, including social media.

It was the clear determination of all members at the AGM to press home the message that whoever may be the owners, manager or players, the fans are the one constant through thick and thin.  They are entitled to have a say in how their club is run and it is the Trust’s responsibility to campaign for this at Swindon in the coming year.

It’s your football club: get involved through the Trust!

Sounds good. I'm glad the Trust is getting back into the full swing of things. I think now is a good time to push for more of an input from the Trust with the new board and also to push for a fans representative on the board. I am certainly considering becoming a member of the Trust again soon.

I am sorry but do we now have JW making comments about the present position but not wanting them to enter the public domain, whats all that about, if you have something to say then say it but don't enter into clandestine discussions with the fan groups?

JW was chairman for how long and did he make any real effort to achieve the Trusts objectives for a fan rep on board?

Was he not part of the board that reorganised the shareholding to seriously dilute the Trusts shareholdings?

Was he not part of the board/shareholders who sold to the present owners?

I appreciate all he did for the club, but this all stinks of further political wrangling by him?

Wholeheartedly agree with this, just don't see how things such as fan ownership can work without accepting that our present position is as high as we can get.

If you look at how much of a hit Andrew Black took and had to write off to get us to where we are now, and take account of the need to sell Ritchie to just sustain the club for so long (did we ever hear how long that cash would last) I just don't see how the Trust could fund the club, let alone fund developments moving forward.

I do think that Trust has a very important role to play at the moment as a voice and monitor keeping a close eye on whats going on and raising anything that doesn't look right.

Can I ask what JW's part in the Trust meeting was and also why he attended? I know he still goes to games but I was just wondering what his interest in the Trust was.

There are some of us, and certainly arriba is one, who accept it may be necessary at some point for the club to reform a lot further down the pyramid and start again, if a sustainable model is to be achieved. This may look a bit scary to some, but lower league football under the current system is unsustainable, and likely to get worse.  As J Wray has said there is likely to be some serious restructuring coming in the next few years.

Thank you for the summation Fred. Any TEFers amongst that board? (I'm pretty sure of a few, but nice to check)

Apparently his comments in an open public meeting are not to be discussed openly in public.

huh

Summerof69 is mate

Strange huh

Need to knock that shit on the head as it will just reinforce jonny's comments

Not good really

Is this the same Mr J Wray who wanted to continue to fling cash at the club until he was removed by the owners late last year.

I am intrigued by what his intentions are, but hey we will never know. I hope he got all the attendees of the Trust AGM to sign a NDA.

If I was considering making any contributions (which I wasn't), this would have changed my mind.

 :sherlock:
I can understand that completely



Unfortunately

I think this applies to lot of clubs...certainly a 'correction' in League football has long been needed and indeed appears to be happening slowly with more and more clubs doing precisely that.

I think in Jezza's mind it was shit or bust...namely we get over the moat before the rest pull up the drawbridge.  We're in a strange position, insofar as we're not really big enough for the Championship, but too big for say Conference South.

Would you agree that our current position (top half of L1/third tier) is more or less our natural position in the order of things?

A quick flick through The Championship table reveals that IMO 23 of the 24 clubs are bigger than us. Peterboro being the exception but even that could be debateable and look where they are in the league (22nd). To see big clubs like Wolves, Sheff Wed and to a lesser extent Bristol City all struggling I cant help but feel if we go up we would be in for a very long season.

We would go straight back down but a season up there would be good for us financially given higher gates and more TV money.

Once upon a time...yes, but in recent years we've had 2 flirtations with Div 4, and only managed to get out, by spending money we really didn't have, which then stores up problems for the immediate future.

You only have to look at clubs like Lincoln and Stockport, to see what can happen if you're allowed to find a natural level...it wasn't that long ago 2007, that Stockport could happily put 3 goals on us without reply...having a side featuring prominent Prem players to be Anthony Pilkington and Ashley Williams.

To be fair, our second relegation in recent years was pretty much solely down to poor management on Wilsons part, and not Indicative of a more deep seated problem

Again, I never claimed it's a secret society, just my perception.

Having Wray turn up and have everyone sign a nda to keep his comments private doesn't help. Again, not saying there is anything going on but it doesn't look good. Though I'm struggling to see any positive reason for Wray attending especially given the comments from Black and the sale of the club in general.

Wilson would probably argue, it was partly as a result of selling players and not properly replacing them. This has been alluded to in the media, but a sort of Roundheads and Caveliers situation...Fitton=Roundhead...Wray=Cavelier.

And the higher wages and resultant downturn in fan support if we are getting beat every week.

Not saying that I actually disagree with you, but if we were bottom at Christmas would the fans not clamour that any extra cash should go on players and slate board if it didn't.

Selling Greer didn't help, but there was still enough in the squad to avoid what happened

True...but it did happen, whereas once upon a time it wouldn't have happened. We're probably closer to Div3/4 yo-yo clubs like Wycombe and Cheltenham, than say established Championship clubs like Leicester, Ipswich and Derby.

If we went down again, and we didn't have wealthy backers we'd still get promoted again. We're simply too big for that division. We could spend our way out without making a loss. We could also outspend half the teams in L1 without going over budget.

I'd peg us as pretty much identical to Brentford, if we're going to compare ourselves to other teams. I don't think anybody was comparing us to the likes of Ipswich & Leicester were we?

We've got the potential to make more of what we have done in the last five to ten years

I'm on the trust board. What was said was that the club are currently needing £3,000,000 a year to sustain the current budget playing staff. This varies from month to month & at present nothing is needed because of the season ticket money coming in. The new owners have therefore put in £1 to buy the club, and nothing may have been needed since. The minutes of the meeting will be on the Trust website soon for all to see. The main discussion was around how fans could have a say in the way the club is run, & whether sufficient investment would be available to continue the current plan champion ship football. Jeremy Wray was there as a Trust Member as was Justin Tomlinson. Both made significant contributions to the discussions. For example the £3,000,000 a year would be covered by the increased revenue of championship football. The main investment is in getting there!. The question was asked why sanction the sale of Matt Ritchie at a bargain basement price, when you could get 3x the money at the end of the season for the sake of a few weeks investment in the club.

Black sanctioned the sale didn't he? Seems a bit of a moot point now.

What did Wray say and why can't it be disclosed? What's the point of inviting people to open public meetings only to discuss things essentially behind closed doors?

Out of interest is that £3m including existing revenue, or £3m on top of existing income streams?

As JW as a board member would have been fully aware of the cash flows etc at the date when ownership changed would he not have a pretty good idea of whether the new board needed additional investment before season end.

I am sorry but this still doesn't explain why a former board member who was involved with those who sold to the new owners now seems to be stirring things up.

Stirring things up?

Was the Richie question answered?

Regarding things being said at trust meetings and not being made public. Wouldn't that be hypocritical as isn't one of the trust's aims be for transparency from the board?
No good keeping secrets within the trust. Should be completely open and a voice for supporters.

I wouldn't compare us to alot of teams mentioned either. We are bigger than Wycombe, Cheltenham, and Brentford. Significantly more so imo.
We have decent gates and I don't think that would be too adversely affected if we were a self sustaining club. I actually think people would be attracted to a club knowing their money is for the benefit of the club and the club only.

Fans need to learn their lesson from the last board. One that threw loads of money at it but had infighting and in the end decided not to fund anymore. Rules should be put in place across football that money donated by backers should be exactly that,donations. Not a debt that can be called in, nor should clubs make money for individuals either.

Possibly not the best turn of phrase, especially when we don't know what his purpose for attending was.

Its just when I read statements like that earlier posted in the AGM notes (I cannot recall by whom) which say

'Jeremy Wray pointed out that if there was a main shareholder or shareholders who wanted to prevent minority shareholders becoming too influential they could issue more shares, buy them themselves and dilute the fans’ shareholding. '

It just makes me a little suspicious as he was part of the previous board who did exactly that? Equally as I mentioned before why is he now a member of the Trust when he had the chance previously to get them more involved in running the club.

Like so much with the club at the moment it doesn't add up and makes me suspicious that there is a more political motive to all this.

I see. I'll try and track down that post. Thanks.

Was Wray also there in his capacity as the ex-chairman who increased our annual losses from c£1.5m to c£3m a season?

Did anyone ask him how the club will cover these massive losses if his gamble to win promotion fails?

I know most people are big Wray fans but I'm not one of them. That kind of spending is reckless and is one of the main problems in football today, pushing up player wages and leaving many clubs facing financial ruin.

Jonny

I am with you 100% on this one

Would love to, however it's a bit of a trek from Peterborough to get to a 6:30 meeting on a working day. The very reason (despite being a season ticket holder) that I don't make it to that many midweek home games.

Saturday morning / lunchtime meetings should be reintroduced

I don't think the Trust has enough clout even with 1000 members. Too many internal politics in my opinion.

Sadly, that appears to be the case

This may be spot on Fred, but no organisation is going to comprise a membership that agrees on absolutely everything and with the same level of conviction on each element of a manifesto (eg Tories, Church of England).

Also, and obviously, the Trust will never be able to claim it represents the whole fanbase (and I'm sure it would never attempt to make such a claim).

However, even if it has no financial clout, or any direct ability to influence goings-on at the club, it can be a voice for asking questions of the club's board of directors. And if it had a membership that represented a decent proportion of the average match-day attendance, it would be difficult for the club board to ignore the sorts of questions that both Trust and non-Trust members would like answered.

I spoke out when the trust were making demands for immediate answers from a board that had not even been officially installed yet and, to boot, were under an NDA. It struck me as ill thought out and toothless.

I agree in general about wanting answers etc but I'd rather my thoughts were represented by a person or organisation that would think it through a little better.

Why make a demand for for immediate answers from a body that is under an NDA? What is that going to achieve?

I don't think it was an immediate demand for answers, it was a list of questions that most fans wanted answered as soon as reasonably possible. I like to think that it set the stall out that the fans aren't naive and we request transparency. I'd rather they got the questions in up front than sat with their thumbs up their arses.

I don;t want to labour the point too much as I agree with the premise.

But they did ask for immediate answers from a body that was allegedly under an NDA. We all get bees under our bonnets, this is one of mine.

Was Jason Roberts at the meeting?

Nail on head!  Wray has as many questions to answer about our financial state as anyone.  His position as chairman intimated a responsibility to run the club in a financially secure manner which he failed miserably.  Seeing Wray back as a chairman or figurehead of some party seeking a takeover would make me nervous.

Slight difference, Wray was spending somebody else's money at the time, somebody who we all thought was quite prepared to sign the cheques . . . . it does now appear not to be the case.  Sadly he couldn't rein in JW who in turn couldn't rein in PDC so he got rid of  one chairman to put in another to sell the club.  A lot would depend on who else is the the party thinking about such a move and how close they would keep those purse strings.

Other than the transfer fee fuck up of TAH and Collins, I've not seen any allegations Wray was operating outside agreed budget. Have I missed it?

It was in the Black tweets.

I didn't see him say that explicitly. Only that he wasn't happy we breached the wage cap and that player transactions were not being communicated as per his instructions.

I agree. But he appeared to hold Wray responsible for the embargo and lack of communication.

Though there was this bit as well;


My problem with Wray is that he is the one that came up with the plan to spend to buy promotion, with an expensive high profile manager who was given money for players. It was his business model and him that convinced Black to bankroll it.

It was a complete change of plan as Fitton had always wanted to balance the books.

Wray is reckless and I wouldn't want him anywhere near the club again. We might have some short term success but it will come back to haunt us and very likely result in administration. I kind of wish I'd been able to go to the AGM so I could explain my views to him, face to face.

Yeah, saw that and its not 100% clear if he meant budget breach, 'forecast' to me suggested its what Wray/PDC/Spencer wanted to spend to kick on.

Wray was very much a spend your way to the Championship before its too late (PL2). I guess we'll see if that approach was right in the next 3-5 years. Lets hope he wasn't.

Even if it was to happen (which it won't) there is no logic to the argument. There'd still be promotion and relegation and if there wasn't they'd only want the bigger clubs regardless of the divisions they were in at the time.

Or are you saying that if Leeds, Man City, Sheff Weds, Southampton, Norwich were all in L1 when it happened that they'd leave them behind and stick with us, Peterborough, Barnsley, Burnley and Millwall instead?

How many teams has the boom and bust approach worked for? I can't think of any but there are plenty of teams that have built up gradually over the years and are now doing alright at the top - Stoke, West Brom, Reading amongst others.

I don't think the promotion and relegation system would be the same as it in now, but that's just my opinion. But in any case I could see the financial gap getting even bigger making it unaffordable to for us to bridge. I'd hate to be stuck in some regionalised shitty league.

Anyway, its all 'what if' right now.

Wray went to the trust meeting as a member of the trust as did MP Justin Tomlinson, yes he said a few things which he asked not to be repeated which I think is fair comment, it was his decision and he was obviously happy to take the risk that he may be repeated.

Not here to  defend him as I dont think he needs it but was just concerned at some of the comments made and attributed to the trust.

For the trust to be even mentioned as a secret society I think is a bit unfair on the current board, the meeting was open to anyone to attend hardly a secret meeting and anyone can join the trust and join the board so hardly on the top secret list.

I think the guys at the trust deserve a little respect, I think that is deserved after the input the trust had getting rid of the last incumbents and uncovering what was going on, surely they have built that, up who knows what they may be needed to do if rumours of the latest lot are to be beleived, people may end of thankful of them asking the awkward questions.

Oh dear

There has always been an element of distrust (no pun intended) amongst the fan base which I think was and is completely unfounded. However, I think the points people are trying to make here are genuinely what people want from the trust rather than nitpicking.

I think it would be a bit rich to not expect any criticism on board and address it, particularly when the trust have recently levied questions and criticism towards the club.

There's obviously a need for a supporters trust and I think fans and the trust itself got too complacent over the last 4 years. The board and members alike do a lot of work in their own time to support the operation. That's where the kudos should come from, not from what happened 5 years ago. You could argue that fans did an awful lot off their own back to help remove those incumbents (not to take anything away from the trust).

Actually there were two alternatives.. set a budget & have a team to compete in league 1/2 with no ambition to go any higher, or invest to get to the championship, where the £3,000,000 extra needed would be covered by the £4,000,000 extra TV revenue.. makes sense to me

On paper it does make sense. The reality though are the consequences of failiure to gain said promotion.

Under Fitton we made it it to the playoffs without breaking the bank.

I think Wray's business plan was to spend big to get to the Championship, get more fans in and in conjunction with the redeveloped stadium generate more revenue. I think maybe he saw the opportunity for PL2 as being self-sustainable in the long run with the extra revenue generated in that type of league.

You either have to play the game or sleep walk into a oblivion. 

I'm amazed so many people still think that is a viable business model.

That is exactly the plan that Coventry, Leeds and Portsmouth have implemented in recent years.

How did it work out for them?

Far be it from me to put words into Jeremy Wray's mouth, but I don't think he was chasing some sort of impossible dream during his tenure, he was merely looking to fast-track us from the basement division to the Championship before that gap became unbridgeable in order to then attempt to stabilise the club at that level.

There was no plan to then continue ploughing money in to reach the Premier League, just to build a sustainable club over time in the second tier. The plan for achieving this was to fund it with increased TV revenue, and new revenue streams from a new stadium which the old board had worked tirelessly with the council to bring about. In time, perhaps, we could have built up the supporter base and copied Reading.

With Black's funding for the necessary two promotion campaigns this was achievable, and until he pulled the plug we were well on the way.

I think JW had beliefs that there is going to be a PL2, with no promotion/relegation, and he wanted us in the top two divisions if that came to fruition.

Not going to happen. Think about it, what would happen if there was no promotion / relegation from the PL?

The season would be over for half the clubs by Xmas. Without needing to avoid relegation there would be no need for clubs in the bottom half to invest in their squad. They'd reduce their wage bill to a minimum and just bank all the TV cash. Within a few seasons the PL would become a joke league, no one would want to watch it and the TV revenue would collapse.

The PL or even a PL2 if it ever exists needs promotion / relegation just as much as The Championship does.

Sorry but Wray is bit stupid if he seriously thought that was ever going to happen. No chance. The FL wouldn't allow it.

I assume that Wray will leave the Trust now and start sniffing around the Sunderland Trust now though anyway?

If you believe everything Andrew Black tweets, rather than remember that Wray was involved in rescuing this club from Diamandis and friends long before Paolo Di Canio and has continued to attend matches after Paolo Di Canio.

In defence of his belief that promotion to the top two divisions might become impossible in the not too distant future, this doesn't have to happen literally, but rather through a continued skewing of the TV rights money to ensure more and more of it stays in the top two divisions. Someone would still get promoted from Division Three each year, but would need far greater funding than even we enjoyed to stay there. Perhaps he thought it was now or never for a club of our stature.

He may be wrong about it all, of course, and let's hope so. But he was a Football League club chairman, so he moves in circles I certainly don't…

But they don't have to make it easy eg top of division below plays bottom of league above - winner takes all.......if you're ground is up to scratch, parachute payments etc.  

Rescuing the club.... with Andrew Black's money..... and remember he was only really in the background until Fitton departed.

I do suspect there are two sides to every story but the way that Wray has been acting a cheerleader in chief on every media outlet since Paolo's departure does suggest a little bromance.

Just to reiterate I will forever admire and thank Wray for his involvement in the Fitton consortium that saved our club. However him going to Trust meetings and having cosy off the record chats about things at this stage does strike as someone looking to stir things up again the existing board and or Mr Black and untilm we know the detail I remain unconvinced that this is not political wrangling with the Trust (and by extension their members and mandate) being used as pawns.

Leeds and Pompey did it on a bigger scale.

It was always going to be a calculated risk but I don't think we're talking Ridsdale/Gaydamak level here.

Wray was the not the only one to agree, there was a board and they would have had to agree to the budget's surely, Wray & co decided to go for it rather than having a lower budget and gambling we would make it back up and then go for subsquent promotions.

If we dont make it then whoever is in charge has to decide what sort of budget we get for next season and if this means releasing players due to earning too much.

If you release the high earning players you have to pay up the contract so theres no logic to that surely

Take away the Simon Cox fee and we would have lost a lot.

Not if there out of contract in the summer...

Whats 9 players on 6k a week to anyone ;)

Not if they were signed on deals

They were then found out to be dogshit

We need to pay them up and release them in order to bring the next draft of shitness in

Sound familiar ?

Just a shame the new team didn't try a touch harder early doors.....may have still had a Premiership manager running the team :D

Seriously though i have nothing but praise for Wray and Watkins....they were the gel that kept the dynamite stuck together at times.

And one of the main reasons why we are in such a strong position in the league still..

If it wasn't for Wrays  supposed 'shit or bust' approach I expect we would be lingering around in League 2 right now.

Hi Jeremy  :bye: