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Any of you know anything about the West Wilts Vineyard Church that meets at Clarendon College in Trowbridge??

Is it run of the mill, happy clappy Christianity, or are they a bit more zealous?

Not been there myself, but looks like a fairly standard "modern" church - so probably fits into your "happy clappy" category

:D

Can't speak specifically on W Wilts Vineyard; but Vineyard is a denomination, albeit without a central heirarchy of any sort. They are modern, with loud music, evangelical and pretty puritanical in their views on morality.  However, where they have leaders wanting to connect with the community, they can do some pretty effective work.....though with a very explicit 'Christian' tag.  They do attract many yound people.

Make sure you offer everyone a drink and apologise for not wishing them Happy Christmas earlier.

I give it an hour before this becomes a debate on religion.

I doubt it, we all know God doesn't exist, right?















:D

Bollocks, of course he exists.

He can be seen every week on the sideline (unless he has been banished to the stands of course) at Town games in a green coat & woolly hat.

Cheers guys.

I asked because my 12 year old daughter has been to the Trowbridge one a couple of times recently with one of her close friends. Out of the blue tonight she has gone to one of their "get to know you" evenings. I was just wondering if they are a group to have any worries about.

"The leader is good, the leader is great"

"I love the leader!"

God asks Lionel messi, "what do you believe in "messi says " I believe in true family values and hard work " god sees the kindness and offers him a seat to his right. God then turns to Ronaldo and says " what do you believe in " Ronaldo says " I believe in your generosity and the love you have given to all mankind " God is impressed and offers Ronaldo a seat to his left.  Finally God turns to Paolo and says " what do you believe in  " Paolo replies " I believe your in my seat "  :)















:D
[/quote]

As a christian myself, I listen to a lot of "Vineyard Music". Vineyard is a well known group/organisation of churches....not a denomination as someone previously mentioned.
It is a non-denominational church (purely focussed on following jesus, having a relationship with christ and trying not to get too hung up on the politics of denominational churches.

Havnt ever been to the one in trowbridge, but vineyard are well known amongst "believers" so would reccomend it.

Luke

Perhaps you could define the difference between a denomination and a group/organisation of churches?  There is, I fear, no such thing as a non-denominational church, nor is there a non-political church.....to say that you are focussed only on 'following Jesus' and having a relationship with Christ is in itself a political and tendentious statement.

That's just gay and against wot the bible say.... ;)

Kind of agree with this, but that's a side issue.

wiggy, to put it straight, if you're happy with you're daughter going to a church and being taught about the Bible, then I don't think you should have concerns about her going to Vineyard

a denominational church, is what your average church is....baptist, methodist, c of e, pentecostal. non-denominational churches, imo, dont like to get caught up in the traditions/politics that theses denominations sometimes consist of.
It is however important to stresss that denominations get their teaching - therefore traditions - from biblical references.

I understand your point about making political statements, but if a church is truely focussed on reaching those in need, and caring for others, is it about politics?

Think you're fighting a losing battle on this one. Any organisation of any kind has politics in how it runs itself and how it engages with other organisations etc... churches (denominational or free) are no different

Hi Wiggy.

I attended one of the "get to know you" evenings last August. I, like yourself, had certain trepidations as opposed to concerns yet I attended with the view that "the proof of the pudding was in the eating". As others have commented, the politics and compartmentalism of "traditional" religious denominations can be a little off-putting, to the extent that many people are seeking pastures new, in order to re-establish a more personal relationship with God. I rather enjoyed the experience though and fully expect to re-attend at some point in the near future. Those present seemed very sincere, welcoming and quite accommodating to someone who had previously upheld and subscribed to the "established" schools of thought.
I do have one major gripe though, which, I suppose is to be expected. Quite simply, there weren't enough bar staff. Oh......and the condom machine in the gents was faulty.

Setting the usual bollocks aside for one post, this has turned in one of those awkward parenting moments, which may well end up with me having a row with the mum of my daughter's best friend.

This all started with a text from my daughter yesterday simply asking if she could go to her friends for tea and then go to church, I replied yes and asked what time she would be brought home, to which the answer was 9:30pm.

Around 10pm I phoned my daughter to check where she was, for her to say she was still in Trowbridge at the home of one of the church members, and that she was "being prayed for". I said to pass a message to her friends mum that I wanted her home ASAP - she was dropped home at 11pm.

As a parent I would expect all teenagers to dabble with religion at some point in the same way that they would vegetarianism. What pisses me off is the fact that her friends mother didn't feel it necessary to explain to us what was actually happening last night. This wasn't a 45 minute service/meeting in a hall, it was a 3 hour session in the home of one of the church members focussing entirely on my daughter as a new member. That is a hell of a lot of pressure on a 12 year old, however clever and single minded she might be.

She won't be going again unless her friend's mum can make a very strong argument for how this is "normal" church activity.

If it was my daughter i would go with her to set my mind at rest.....if i believed or not.

this

A young and pure mind is far easier to indoctrinate than an adults'. The church has done very well with focusing on the young and impressionable, don't give them a helping hand with their brain washing.

What you describe sounds fucking weird and keeping you out of the loop only adds to the strangeness of why it needs to be secretive.

TBH I am furious - I had enough sense to not say anything to my daughter last night beyond making it clear I wasn't happy with her being out late on a school night and explaining that I was upset at not being told this was in a strangers house.

Chances are that when I talk about it with her tonight she will say she doesn't want to go again. Finmgers crossed on that!

I think most parents would be furious, it makes me furious and I have no kids! It reads like an introduction to a cult or something! ( I know it's not, but the whole incident seems strange.)

Sounds very irresponsible of the other parent involved not letting you know what was going on - I think they'd be the person I'd have a gripe with.

Indoctrination should be a crime.

All sounds a bit scary and Christian fundamentalist.There surely should be some sort of parental consent rule for this sort of thing.Glad I don't have kids,who'd have thought there would come a time where you have to worry about your kid going to Church..

I'm with you on this - doesn't sound quite right to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Vineyard_Churches

*shudder*

Wiggy

You should show your daughter 'miracles for sale' by Derren Brown. A google search for 'Vineyard Churches scam' has that as the top result.

Depends if you're Catholic or not...

I disagree entirely. It sounds much more like poor communication, or perhaps even dishonesty, which really shouldn't happen when children are involved.


I agree entirely. But again, I think the blame lies more with the parent of the other child than the church itself, they were probably told she was there with parental consent.

As for the wiki quote which Flasheart is *shudder*ing at, to me it looks nothing more than a load of long words which saying nothing other than "Yeh, we're a church, but we want to be different"

Would be better if they were actually in a vineyard. Would attract more numbers if they handed out free wine,and it would help with their brainwashing.

Yeah.

They seem very 'different' alright.

Not exactly Scientology different though.

Not too far off though it would seem Samdy.

Searches for Vineyard churches 'cult' and 'weird' ring a lot of alarm bells. They seem like just the kind of thing Derren Brown exposed. Speaking in tongues, miracle healings and all that really strange stuff.

I'd be very, very concerned if my daughter was anywhere near that lot.

It sounds a bit like one of those truly stupid religions, like mormonism, that's been imported from across the pond.

I think some people on here have gone WAY over the top. As some sensible-sounding person said earlier the problem here is with the friend's mum. She clearly knew what was happening so should've informed Wiggy fully and let him make the decision.

Wiggy, go along if you're concerned and then make an informed decision rather than listening to the views of people who Google it and believe what they're reading.

For what it's worth, i think all religion is bloody odd so this doesn't really stand out from the pack in terms of nutjob-ness.

Over the top?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3yKGtvFrMw&feature=related
(Part one of that video confirms it is a vineyard thing)

And the reality.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpz_9_KalFY

Note Derren's last words

You mean you can't do that? :D

Alright, it's a bit weird but one YouTube clip doesn't actually prove anything. They do this type of shit in all forms of religion. To single out this lot as being crazier than the rest is naive. Especially as Christianity as a whole appears to believe that some guy born in the Middle East was white.

This thread is over jew some puns.

Its making me cross, Jesus!

The main difference here I think is that most Christians actually believe the nonsense they propagate.

These vineyard people however, particularly the ones at the top, must be knowingly and willingly lying to people. And there's more than just one youtube clip, many more.

I'd be wary of tarring all Vineyard churches with the same brush. You might be right, or the church in Trowbridge might be full of honest, 'normal' people. It's a bit like the Elim group of pentecostal churches - you can go to two of those and see very little similarity in the stuff they do.

So somebody should allow their 12 year old daughter to go because they might not be as weird as the rest?

No, somebody should make their decision based on first hand experiences of their own, and not propaganda and hyperbole from either side of the atheism debate.

What does atheism have to do with being wary of cults and scammers?

Something like what Dave said. My point was that the only way to find out what they're like is to go and see for yourself.

So it is now a cult? Will it all turn out like Waco?

I think the fact you're labelling the whole movement as a cult, based on two you tube clips and a wikipeadia article, displays exactly what atheism has to do with it.

no it doesn't

If wiggy wants to go along and check out then fine, although I would suggest that their actions so far have already been quite inappropriate.

I'm expressing caution against something that appears, at the best, weird. I can't quite understand the objections to that. How many on here would willingly send their children to something that they are unsure about?

I agree that the actions of the parent were in appropriate, not sure the people at the church have done anything wrong. As for expressing caution, it sounds more like you've totally written them off as a fanatical cult already, without any first hand evidence. If you went, and came back with the same opinion, then I'd respect that.

By all means continue to express caution. You're right to do so.

Right from the trowbridge vineyard church's site itself.


http://westwiltsvineyard.com/communityAction/

Damn me and my suspicions

Again, I don't think you've proven they're doing anything wrong. I often have my own suspicions about miracle healings, but you're jumping to conclusions here.

Why are you getting your khakis in a twist about something that isn't your problem?

It's wiggy's kid, let him deal with it how he wants.

Eh?

Wiggy started a thread asking about them, to which I gave evidence showing that they are apparently a bunch of nuts. Other people are getting the khakis in a twist because they don't like that.

Am I supposed to not give (seemingly correct) answers just in-case somebody doesn't like it?

I'd imagine wiggy was more hoping that someone would have first hand knowledge, not just formed an opinion on them based on a selected information they'd read on the internet.

wiggy

Up to you mate............

This HOTS (healing on the streets) thing they do, they do up and down the country. they say so on their very own regional websites and most clearly state that it involves physical healing akin to what is in the videos. Google is your friend. If that's OK with you then that's OK with you, there plenty more in the internet.

I'll leave it there. I'll be more mindful next time I try to help.

When you post a thread asking about stuff like this on an internet forum you're going to get all sorts of opinions.I don't think you're likely to an unbiased opinion no matter.They sound to me like they might think Dinosaurs are from 1000 years ago and the earths only 5000 years old.I'm basing this entirely on nothing more than an American sounding name  haha.

Flasheart you have nothing to apologise for.

So what's the difference between these Vineyard folk forcing their views on wiggy's kid and Flashheart forcing his views on wiggy?

:fishing:

................

Wiggys an adult,he can choose for himself.

I simply don't understand why people within the UK embrace these ridiculous American variations on a religion.

[url width=580 height=709]http://img.anongallery.org/img/0/8/what-is-the-best-way-to-stop-your-child-becoming-an-athiest.jpg[/url]

soapy tit wank

Thanks for all the effort guys! For what its worth Flashheart I read their website last night - its what prompted me to ask on here.

She is a very bright girl, and we can normally have a conversation without it descending into the usual row between pre-teen girl and overprotective dad. I will ask her what she thought of the experience before setting out my own concerns. Ultimately (and without me feeling the need to go and witness it first hand) she won't be going again - just hope she works that out for herself so we don't have to make a big deal of it.

To give all this some context, my mum was a Sunday School teacher and I attended a church school. I have never quite felt strongly enough to move my stance on religion from one of indifferrence and apathy to one of outright atheism. If my daughter wants to get all religious then fine, but I would rather it was closer to home and in what I would recognise as a church, where she is just one of the congregation, rather than meetings in private houses where new young members are the sole focus of 3 hour sessions.

fuck not having strong opinions, might as well send her to a proper nuthouse, these people believe in something as real as father xmas, would rather my kids were caught sniffing glue than go to church.

Its modern times....they can do both :D

Not to mention all the sex

Quite. Thankfully at least the proper nutters like the Westboro Baptist lot seem to have stayed across the pond.

oooh are they sex people? count me in, i would believe in malpas if i could bang a teenager.

Cheers Mex - one of the  few things to make me smile today!

I had first hand experience of Street Healing outside the Pilgrim Centre... couple of religious folk saw me limping along a year ago so offered to heal my ruptured cruciate using prayer. I didn't notice anything at first, but only 3 months later, a surgeon fixed it. I was sold...

i think thats the first time you have made me laugh out loud on here senor sanchez :clap:

Loads if Filipinos around where I live, they are mostly dead into all this god bovvering stuff.

I've never actually been to the Philippines myself but know many people that have. Apparently, many of the hos out there are so religious that they wont have 'sex' before marriage. Therefore, they insist in taking up the wrong 'un instead.

My mate emigrated to the Philippines last year....as a good Jewish boy, he's sure to be able to provide me with a bit of an insight into Philipinos and god bothering.

At work we occasionally have baptisms in the pool so our pool is like holy water for a while after I guess?? :)
These women were praying in the pool for this other women's poorly arm the other day right under the lifeguard car so hopefully all the good vibes went straight through me first?

I wonder when people are going to realise that praying doesn't work?

I know a woman here that spends more on lucky charms than anything else.

She swears by them and is sure they work. The fact she lives alone in a tiny apartment without air-con is completely lost on her.

I'd do the bitch mother for kidnap. What a fucking stupid cuntbitch trying to indoctrinate a 12 year old. As she tried to ruin your daughter I'd "borrow" her daughter and get her down the nearest Mosque for a few hours. This is so bang out of order.

The more you give to the church in life (buy your ticket to heaven, money doesn't matter, but we're richer than the lord himself) and in suffering in life and giving it to them, the lord will stop you burning in hell forever in eternal pain.

Not even that mate.

She just genuinely believes they are lucky, daft cow. She also pays a lot to monks to tell her fortune. It's extra to giving merit to Buddha and stuff. The irony is of course is that she probably would not be living in such a small apartment and would have more money if it wasn't for the amulets and stuff.

Of course, these are monks that are supposed to live a life of poverty yet they are robbing her (and others) blind.

at a family wedding a few years ago in an evangelical church - the elders described everybody in the wedding who wasn't in the church family as evil. Fucking hell, the resolutely Christian bride's mother was about to walk out. Now I can accept that I am evil but not the bride's family that was bang out of order.
So, on this and previous experience with evangelical Christians and Muslims (not Buddhist or Sikhs yet - watch out Jay Leno) they can fuck off and support Oxford.
Tolerance you will not find, in my experience.

Given the fact you're in a relationship out of wedlock I think you're fucked.

A mates missus, who was "spiritual" (a fucking dickhead) used to sell rocks that gave others various states of well being or happiness. She used to sell lots of them and from what I recall made a fair bit income. I don't know where the delusions end and the snake oil salesman begins.

Ah well. Have had a long chat with my daughter.

Because her best mate and her mum are so heavily tied up in this it has been hard to talk about my reservations about the Vineyard without seeming critical of them, so my daughter has been getting very defensive about them.

Anyhow, she now knows why I am so upset and that she won't be allowed back there again, and she isn't throwing a pre-teen strop, so all in all about the best outcome I could hope for.

I still want to track the friend's mum down though, because her actions have been bang out of order and I don't want there to be any grey areas for the future - she has to get the very clear message that that there is no parental consent for this to happen again.

Sometimes being a parent sucks.

I am not religeous but love churches,like to spend time in them in total silence and let the history of who went before pass through me.
Also got baptised a three years back at he same time as my daughter and grandaughter...the three of us together in St Michaels at Highworth.
Churches for me are nothing to do with religion,though i fully appreciate for many it is.

Wiggy

If you think you need to, I'd still recommend watching Derren Brown's 'miracles for sale' with your girl. He's a charming mo fo that approaches the subject whilst not wanting to insult believers. She'd probably recognise some stuff that will open her eyes, in which case it will hopefully make her think twice.

Probably best to see how it pans out for now, but that's something that may help if needed.

You'd probably like some of the temples out here Lee.

They are dead cool. Not as old as the churches and Cathedrals of Europe though (except from the ruins)

If they are anything like the HK ones, and I assume they are, they are quite impressive are them there Buddhist temples.

Here is the inside of Man Mo

[url width=450 height=300]http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss142/estherchiu_photos/DSC_6483b.jpg[/url]

That sounds a little like the Mother Superior in Trainspotting!

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

You made me choke on me beer your prick.

Then coming back to edit this post made me notice the code for the Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick emoticon, which made me choke again.

now the wife is awake.

Thanks Luke



Matthew x

Hello Frederick

Hello BR

Welcome back mate

been a bit absent myself

Cheers

I got a bit tired of getting into silly pointless arguments, so I took a break for a couple of months.

Then I missed the silly pointless arguments and felt as though I need more of them in my life. So I reincarnated myself, just like Jesus really.

Oh. And that football thing is a bit good right now.

Fuck religion, fuck the entire institution of belief.

Fuck it all.

Jesus Christ, kids are 'dabbling in religion' these days are they?  I dabbled in many things as a teenager and I seem to have missed tht one.  Oh well, no time like the present...

Allahu Akbar!

he certainly is - but Benson is superb