Thetownend.com

Another nail in the coffin of the british pub.

That Cunt Alistair Darling has increased Cider duty by 10% and beer by 5% meaning an extra 10p a pint now in the pub. Another dagger in the heart of pubs. So much in trying to stop over 40 pubs a week shutting in the UK! As a side note, Tax on beer in Britain is now 11 times higher than Germany, nine times higher than Spain and seven times higher than France.

For smokers fags gone up 4% meaning an extra 25p a packet.

Fuel up by 1p

Given the scale of the problems in the economy, complaining about cider duty is a bit like complaining that the people who demolished your house didn't shut the gate on their way out.

On the plus side there's never been a better time to sober up and quit the fags!

Bollocks to that !

I'd say the general state of the economy and people having less money after all of the taxes rises will kill off the pubs.

Not many can afford to go out often anymore.

How much has the tosser put on fuel? £1.20 a fucking litre here at the moment.

Labour OUT!

I think all these increases would have been brought in whoever was in charge... living just gets more and more expensive in this country, its annoying.

Still want Labour out.

I wonder how long it will be before cider companies start doing a 'Pringles' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7490346.stm)

What is involved in 'doing a Pringles'?

convince me the tories will be better Ralphy. I'm not saying keep Labour, cos they're shite, but they're all as shite as each other.

Once you pop....?

(I am guessing)

It annoys me that those new people who want to get on the housing market won't have to pay stamp duty on houses but those that already own a house and want to move will, surely it should apply to all if they want to get the housing market moving.

Keep pilling tax on booze is typical of any goverment though, a quick way to raise money - can't see the tories being any better than labour, in fact I think I dislike Cameron more than I do Brown - just something smarmy about they guy

Thought they may have done something for your man on the street as a typical vote catcher but they don't seem to have.

Arguing, for tax reasons, that they're not crisps when they clearly are.

It's all very well sitting here at a computer saying "they shouldn't put more tax on booze, "they shouldn't put more tax on fuel", "they shouldn't put more tax on fags" and "they should cut stamp duty for more people" but these cuts have to be paid for. Not only that, if these cuts are made and the City can't see how they will be financed, the pound will slump even further and the country will be facing even greater costs of servicing its debts.

I'm not saying Darling has come out with the perfect budget, but sitting here complaining without suggesting a single viable alternative is rather futile.

So we've had a budget and they've increased tax on booze, fags and fuel?

Fuck me. Didn't see that coming..............

Pair of scissors, rodent and a friend.

It does grate with me that successive Governments constantly raise charges on alcohol and smokes to make up the shortfall in other areas.  It’s become so frequent an increase is accepted as the norm and a freeze is seen as a “one off” positive reflection of a healthy economy.

I can understand the hike on the snouts.  They’re a drain on public health and there should be every incentive for people to quit, myself included.  I’m only a social smoker these days but I can proudly say I haven’t bought a packet of tabs and paid duty in over three years.  God bless the black market.

Increases in beer is murdering the pubs.  In a few years all we’ll be left with is plastic novelty bars straight out of the bar equivalent of Kay’s catalogue all charging ridiculous prices.  Perhaps it’s time someone set up a giant bar just far enough out into International water to avoid tax.

He knows he can put the tax up on those things, because people need their cars, they like to drink and like to smoke. He knows whatever he puts on it people will still do it.

It'll be £4 a pint soon!!

£3.80 for a Budvar in the Beehive on Saturday. I only had the one...

Oh, what is the reasoning by adding so much extra duty on cider compared to beer? Because it's getting more popular and summer is on the way?

presumably cider was taxed less than beer, so this brings them more in line

and the alternative is so much better.

your employer will be no more,thats for sure if the tories get in.

Where's the modern day Wat Tyler when you need him?

Spot on.

The thing that fucks me off about any government is the endless blame they place on the other party. Darling was still gibbering on about the Tories doing this that and the other 15 years ago. No doubt if Labour weren't in power and were the opposition it would be vice versa.

I couldn't give a crap what happened over three terms ago, I'd quite like to hear about the heres and nows more. Besides, if the country was so fucked before, why has Labour spent its way into oblivion? It's just distraction tactics to deflect from their own incompetencies.

Yeah Labour out, you think things are bad now wait until the Tories get in, the words feed the rich, starve the poor come to mind.

Any political party who achieves contol is on a hiding to nothing.

The people in charge have to make tough decisions and those decisions are usually disliked by some part of society.

Still, gives us something to moan about, doesn't it?

If you really think there is a vast difference between the two of them, then you haven't really been paying attention for the last 20 years Gazza.

For sure saw it coming, of course. People say that "we dont talk anymore" the pub used to be a meeting point to socialise. Some would blame perhaps email, internet, mobile phones etc but a decent local can be a focal point for any community. There are very few left now thanks to constant increases.

Over 2 years booze has gone up by 20%, brought in the smoking ban and then the government says they want to help save the british pub. How do they plan on doing this with putting prices etc up to stupid prices. One way perhaps is banning cheap booze in supermarkets. I'm not say ban booze in supermarkets all togehter just bring it in line wtih booze in the pub etc so the market is fair again.

Since 2008, beer tax has increased by an eye-watering 26 per cent – a £761 million tax rise - and we have seen the loss of 4,000 pubs and over 40,000 jobs up and down the country. Beer sales are down £650m in the last year alone.

This is a further tax raid on responsible beer drinkers and community pubs. It is however a tax raid that will yield little extra money for the Government as any extra beer duty will be outweighed by job losses, pub closures and reduced business taxes.

If they put beer in supermarkets up to pub prices, no one would buy it. Of course with your job in mind you have a vested interest in pub beer sales, but that idea is stupid. I love the pub as much as the next man, but i also appreciate a slab of beers from Asda so i can enjoy an ale with my mates without having to pay over £3 for every drink i have.

No one, least of all the Government or taxes, has forced pubs in to charging £3 for a bottle of beer that costs 60p in the supermarkets. There are plenty of things pubs can do to survive and they've only got themselves to blame if they don't.

The idea would be to charge the same "per unit" as has been suggested in the past ie minimum pricing which they are very much in favour of in Scotland. Pubs are blamed for "binge drinking culture" whilst in reality it is likely tescos or Asda as you can get cheap booze, you can get pissed effectively for under £15.00 which helps with the binge drinking.

Pubs have lost their appeal for many reasons. Some say booze it too dear, food prices have dropped dramatically to try and appeal to more but people just don't want to go to the pub. Someone did point out though if beer dropped by 10-20p a pint would you see a dramatic rush to the pub? No probably not. The damage is done now. Let's just hope England do well in the World Cup which should boost trade!

Can anyone spot the point where Gazza stops giving his own views and then starts quoting CAMRA?

That is Absolute bollocks. We have had pubs for example sell bottles at a quid. And still no one goes there. There is so much more than just "getting a bottle of beer that costs 60p and selling it for £3.00" besides the average cost of a bottle is 90p for pubs to order from the suppliers. There are overheads etc like rent, electric, water, gas etc. to pay how can you pay that by selling a bottle for 90p? Before anyone says yes they have those things at asda as well gas etc. but they also sell other things to compensate for the cheap booze.

Yep second 2 paragraphs and its the "Morning Advertiser"

We should ban supermarkets from selling food so we all have to eat in restaurants.

Urgh, blurble, ick...

I'm keeping my mouth shut about all of this for a change...  :bye:

Bet it won't last.............

I'm a CAMRA member, but don't quite share the feeling of panic about pub closures.  The pubs that are closing are, on the whole, shit.  The good ones - the decent community locals - are surviving...because they offer something that people want.

So the Rovers Return, where responsible drinkers head to have a quick pint and a natter after work, shouldn't fear for its future.  But the bar in Still Game where old men spend 5 nights a week on their own with the barman probably doesn't have much of a future.  They're the ones buying the cheap lager in Asda and drinking it at home instead.

i reckon the village pub demise is due to the clamp down on drink driving.people used to drive,sink a few pints then drive home.

Yeah, I reckon he's scared like a big scaredy girl.

I reckon pubs would have a better chance of surviving if the big chains cut some overheads - surely some of them must have some useless layabouts on their staff with nothing better to do than post on Internet forums? That's got to be worth 3p off a pint for starters.

:) (Only joking Gaz)

Slight problem with minimum pricing Gazza - it's against EU law

Sorry Gazza - thats just a lot of old bollocks !

So because I don't drink in the pubs too much but enjoy a couple of pints at home every now and then I should have to pay more for that ?

Why ?

So I can pay for some crumbling wreck of a pub where the landlord/brewery/aunt fannie haven't bothered to chnge with the times ?

Sure pubs have suffered - but so the fuck has everyone else !  Part of my business has halved in the last 4 years through absolutely nothing I have done wrong - should I bleat about it to government and any other fucker that will listen ?

No, I get on with it and find other opportunites to develop !

Get a fucking grip !

You could drink the weak shitty Carlsberg for 1.99....something for everyone, not all can afford a decent pint.

Think the price increase is a kind of payback for the liberalisation of the opening hours.

Now that you mention it..... good idea! :D

Anyway Gaz you think you've got problems. Think how ben's going to feel when he gets home and finds out what they've done to his White Lightning (or whatever its called)

Nah just make the price of a ready meal about £10.

what does 'strong cider' actually mean? does that mean all cider, including eg. stowford press draught, or just flammable's favourite 10p for 2 litres of frosty jacks sort of stuff

Time to stockpile Cider then.

Seriously, binge drinking my foot, if anyone can afford to get rat-arsed on Thatcher's 4.50 a bottle in pubs already Cider they have issues of thier own. Can't they just charge extra for Blackthorn and White Ace?

You'd have to drink 15 pints of cider before you effectively paid for another pint over without getting the benefit of that pint. Sounds like a challenge for Fred

What a pile of shite....another reason why i wont vote in the next election.
Its getting to the stage ware normal working class people are really struggling.
The car and fuel situation is getting silly.............no help what so ever for the man/woman who works hard just to earn a crust.
Total bollox.

Budgets never really seem to affect me or if they do i dont notice it.But yes,Cider boo!

So you're saying "The currently elected party are making changes with which I disagree, therefore I refuse to vote in the next election".

I don't get it.

5
Labour got into power with 48% of the vote.....the other 52% of people who voted including me obviously wasnt happy.
I refuse to vote for a party just because the other ones doing crap...its like two  pieces of shit put before you and being told to eat the one you like best...people in this country have the Lemming mentality and people who say if you dont vote dont moan are wrong...the reason being i pay my dues like everyone.
People died for freedom...and its my freedom of choice whether i vote or not,though i do try and vote locally.

I don't bother voting, It's a complete waste of time! All of them are exactly the same so there's no point.

I wouldn't piss on any MP if they were on fire!

There's more than the 2 parties you imply, is there not one at all that reflects your views?

I used to love politics...i have fallen out of love with it now,i used to religiously watch question time and listen to the wednesday in parliament live on radio every week.....but you ask any labour voter who voted in the last election if they are happy with what they got...war in two countries wasnt on the agenda for a start...not just labour though..my views are total dislike thatour country being run by other countrys in the EU....the two main parties wont budge on that and the alternatives UKIP etc are not feasable.
Our farmers and fisherman cant do there buisness without some EU document telling them what to do.
I may decide to vote but deep down i know it will not  be because i see great hope for my kids and grandchildren in the future.

Fair enough, but why is UKIP not feasible?

It all started going to shit with Ted Heath railroading Britain into Europe with the premise that the other European Countries would help Britain's economy.  Believing that little green men landing their flying saucer in Walcot was more credible, I voted No to stay in Europe in the 1973 referendum.

  

  

Because in my view the few good policies(on paper) they have just cover up the nasty side of the party....there whole agenda seems to revolve around the EU,s activities and we all know you have to have more on the table than that..they will get alot of votes from the farmers etc but have no chance of getting a real foothold in parliament.

UKIP are the first party to release their manifesto this year and for the first time have a full manifesto on all the major issues not just EU ones (although the EU does affect most things either partly or completely)

http://www.ukip.org/media/policies/UKIPManifestoWeb.pdf

As an aside a lot of farmers are not actually that anti-EU / pro-UKIP mainly because they get generous subsidies via the CAP.

I think Andrew Fitton should run the country.

So basically Gordon Brown has fucked up my future :D

I don't get the logic of UKIP. Obviously I get the fact they want independence for the UK from the EU but its how they're going about it. Most of their votes are going to come from Tory voters, which lessens the chances of Tory MP's getting elected and increases the chances of another Labour government. Which seems pretty dumb when the Tories are the most Euro-sceptical and Labour are the most pro-EU. Or am I missing something?

Their new leader, who is an ex-Tory Peer, has said that they won't stand against proper Eurosceptic Tories- which he said would be 7-8 at most, so I'm guessing he's talking about the Bill Cash school of Euroscepticism, rather than any old Tory.

I see that with Michael Wills the sitting labour MP in N Swindon is standing down at the next election and that they have parachuted some chap in from another area of the country who does not live in Swindon, does not work in Swindon, and obviously does not know the area, and they want people to vote for him.....

tomlinson will win that seat quite easily i think.i wonder if he will give up going to the old skool nights and raves when he's elected?

The parachuted in a chap from another part of the country? Why did they not just tell him to catch the train?

He refused to travel standard class.

I still don't see the logic, all they are going to do is push us further in to the EU by helping Labour. Though I still think there is a very good chance they will do a deal with Cameron - a few safe seats for Eurosceptic Tories and a referendum of some kind in exchange for them not standing in the election. Not that I really give a flying fuck as I'm as pro-EU as they come.

Read something earlier that indicated that the 3p fuel rise would actually equate to 7p by the time of the 3rd staggered increase due to VAT being added to the duty and an increase in biofuel duty or something.

That and the NI increase is a great way to tax jobs. And not to foget that the non taxable allowance for everyone is staying static which means an effective tax rise if you get any kind of pay rise this year.  Well done again Nu-labour.  Let not worry about the national debt at all, lets continue in your tax and spend bubble I'm sure it will work out well in the end.

The Tories are not Eurosceptic. By judging a man by his deeds not his words then it becomes clear that the Tories love the EU project. They were the ones that took us into the EU (Common Market), signed the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty. More power has been given away under a Tory administration than any other.

Regarding the comment about "most of the votes come from Tories" - not true. UKIP draws its support from right across the political spectrum. It in fact has just as many ex-Labour voters as ex-Tory ones - not to mention that UKIP is particularly strong in the South West (typically Lib Dem territory)

All 3 parties are divided on the EU issue, it's just the Tories seem to be more vocal about it.

Most of what UKIP says it would do is crackers, fantasy-land stuff. It's primarily a negative manifesto - just list of things they don't like. Fringe parties will do well in the  election only because of the dissatisfaction with the performance of the main parties.

The best thing about UKIP is that it provides an alternative place for the protest vote that may otherwise go to the BNP.

Another thought. Much of the anti-EU stuff talks about power being "given away". But power doesn't work like that. For example, the main reason we aren't reforming our banking system is because the Americans haven't decided what to do yet. When they do, the UK will follow them. We haven't "given away" power to the US, they've got it already.

Most big decisions in the world happen in international organisations like the UN or WTO, or they are made by the US. Your choice isn't whether you "give power away" or not, it's whether you play the game or not. And if you don't play, you don't count.

Well DRS i would apportion all the blame to him!
On the point arriba mentions about Tomlinson i have to applaud him..my sisters poll tax was messed up badly and she started getting bailiffs knocking on her door for money she had paid...it made her pretty ill so as a last resort i emailed him as she lives in his area of work....within two days he had sorted it...dont pretend i know to much about him but he got my thanks on that occasion.

Wanting self governence and democracy is crackers?...ok best I tell Emily Davidson


Not true, clearly you haven't read UKIP's manifesto.


Good, the main parties have let us down. What's wrong with lending your vote to someone who may do a better job?


Ahh the classic BNP smear. FYI UKIP was founded by a homosexual Lib Dem. There's only one party that has been sued for its discriminatory manifesto and it's not any of the main parties or indeed UKIP.


Not sure if you're aware but much of our banking laws are decided by the EU not America - the run on Northern Rock for example was a direct result of an EU Directive. The main issue is that either the UK is accountable to its electorate or not - that's how power should work not how you play the game.

You know me so well...  :D

Nah, as the thread has moved away from Darling/budget I feel free to interject.

I would say that if you are going to vote in the forthcoming election (I'm not, spoilt ballot paper as the whole system is fucked anyway) then vote for anybody but the the LibLabCon. Yes, they are all as bad as each other and they do not have any of our interests at heart.

Vote UKIP, Jury Team, BNP, an independent, even the Green wankers. Anybody but the big three. Use your vote to make a difference. Wholesale change is required.

The fact that you're happy to recommend people vote for a fascist party really does show just how fucking confused your political "thinking" is.

Not you again  ;D

I'm not recommending any party, me old itchy Lump. I'm suggesting that anything but the big three is a good move. Would you be happier if I included the UK Communist party as well, for balance? Ah yes - you would...

I will pre-empt your next post.

Alan, I know you don't like the establishment any everything, but is a vote for the BNP really more harmless than one for the fucking Lib Dems?

Nemo, that is up to the person who is putting their cross on the ballot paper. Again, I am not saying that any one party is any better than another. Personally I think that they are all full of shit, but I won't go into that again here. The problem that I believe we do have with our 'democracy' is that the three main parties are all the same under the bonnet. They expect to be elected. They are smug and will fuck us over for ever more. Getting them out of control would shake things up so much and hopefully lead to a better outcome.

On the subject of the BNP, they are a registered political party and have a right to exist. If people want to vote for them, that is their choice and has absolutely nothing to do with me. Likewise the Communist Party. I won't be voting for either of them (well I won't be voting full stop).

Out of interest more than anything else, if there was an option marked "abstain" on the ballot paper, would you go down and vote for that? I'd be quite interested in seeing how many votes that would get, as so many people I talk too claim to be interested in Politics but have no intention of actually voting for anyone.

No. I would still spoil my paper. Ticking 'abstain' still means that you agree with having a government, just that you don't want to pick a candidate/party.

I think spoiling a paper is pretty childish really, it doesn't have any impact whatsoever and means nothing to TPTB. It certainly releases some anger for me personally though   8)

But to suggest a vote for the BNP must mean that you're deluded enough to believe they'd do a better job in power than any of the three mainstream parties.

As they are, despite their recent makeover, still at heart a democracy hating bunch of neo-nazi cunts, this might be a regarded as a bit mental by most people.

If people voting for them is "nothing to do with you" whay the fuck are you recommending it in a post on this site?

Its about time the vote was online now..the voting numbers would rocket..alot of people could vote from work...alot of people cannot get time off work and the vote would be more secure also.
People not online could vote at the library etc.....alot of disabled people find it very hard to get out and vote...surely its got to happen soon.

Holy gobshites! Lets get back to the budget.

I heard that tramps are going to counteract the 10% increase on cider by pestering people for 11p for a cup of tea.

The BNP would not get 'into power'. I'm not deluded, my protuberant friend. I agree that they are bonkers but the way our political system is structured, they have as much right to exist as say, the Trotsky Nutcase Party, of which I assume that you might be General Secretary  ;D

I could start the West Swindon Baby Eating Party if I wanted to. So what? Would a majority vote my party into power? Of course not.

You miss the point entirely. I AM NOT ENDORSING THE BNP OR THEIR POLICIES. There are enough alternatives apart from the big three for the electorate to vote for. If the BNP fits someone's views, then that is their choice.

Anyway, anybody who wants power over others is obviously a cunt, that is the nature of socio-paths. Sorry, I meant politicians.

Bugger, I'm going to have to withdraw now  :bye:

Tell her what you want, she's dead,


Not a smear. An observation. In my view most people who vote for the BNP aren't fascist, they're frustrated. I think in the main they're wrong, but that's my opinion. I would rather frustrated people voted UKIP than BNP. This doesn't make UKIP any less crackers.


I'm very aware of banking regulations, thanks. The Northern Rock run was due to their over-reliance on wholesale markets. When there was a liquidity crunch, Northern Rock couldn't refinance. To blame this on an EU directive suggests you don't know what a wholesale market is, nor an EU Directive. This is numpty-ish mudslinging of the first order.

Northern Rock was a grossly mismanaged company with inadequate liquidity, risky lending, and a gung ho approach to raising capital. New regulations are coming in that will stop this fucking shite once and for all - you know it makes sense.
I'm voting labour as I hope they will now lurch to the left and give me the totalitarian  socialist utopia that I want. Damn right about the UKIP vote affecting the Tories - it's going to be close

That is such a bullshit argument but fairly typical of the poorly thought through, "ooh look at me I'm such an iconoclast, aren't I clever" approach you take to all political debates.

If basically all you're saying is "don't vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dem" that's all you had to post. You could have even recommended people follow you're example and spoil their ballot. Instead you implied that a vote for any minority party would be preferable, when clearly it fucking wouldn't be.

You wouldn't prefer a BNP MP in Swindon to any of the othe parties on offer would you? So why say better to vote for them than one of the big 3? You had to include them on your list options because somehow you thought it would make you look "radical" in your rather special definition of that word.

Everything about the way you approach political debate makes me chuckle because it reminds me so much of the way several of the tiny ultra left sects of the 80's and 90's used to go about things, constantly trying to "out-radical" each other, and almost being proud of the fact that their political opinions were so much in the minority. They were basically just indulging in childish attention seeking too.

I haven't got a fucking clue what either of you are on about, but please keep it up. It's quite entertaining.

I was just thinking the same Samdy.

We should have these political threads more often. Next weeks I might start a thread discussing the benefits of having a socialist state, that should keep us entertained for another week or so.

Well simples for me - I want that unelected boring Scottish TWAT out of the way....

The ONLY way in reality that this is going to happen is to put my scrawl in the box that says Tories....

It may be sad - but currently it's true....

All this "vote for the minority parties" stuff is great as a dream - but this country ain't quite ready to go for that yet......All it does is play into Brown's hands as far as I can see - and I REALLY want that fucker gone !

Oh.

And this being a political topic doesn't make it excusable for people to use the word 'simples'.

Oh come on - simples is a good word :)

My arguments are very well thought through, thank you very much. It would be reasonable if you could grant me that, me old pus filled spots. I respect your point of view and ability to think, even if I don't agree with it.


That's what I did post???


I've explained that already. You're just getting shitty because even the mention of 'BNP' sends you into apoplexy. I understand that you wish they didn't exist, but they do. Again, if I had included the UK Communist Party instead, would you have responded like this? I thought not.


I'm not trying to "out-radical" anyone? My political stance is based on a philosophy that has been around for over 60 years, so it is nothing new. I wish it was in the majority, which it will be one day when dogmatic lefties like you have finally died out, thank god.

That will be a pretty short thread then  :D

There is a reasonable argument that keeping Brown in would actually be more successful that replacing him with iDave. He would have to face the accumulated shit that he has generated, which would rapidly lead to the complete implosion of the Labour Party...

spoiling your ballot paper is fucking pointless and childish. What are you going to do afterwards, lie on the floor having a tantrum? 

Good call. I might just do that!

I think Governments are fucking pointless. Your turn on the floor...

That's one way of looking at it...

Another would be that he would keep telling lies throughout another 5 years, bury all the shit he has created, raise taxes even higher, continue to live in the deluded dream that borrowing more money will somehow pay our debt off that HE created, tinker around with "moving public sector out of London" etc... which would save pennies, carry on with the absurd Trident programme which costs £100 Billion (I believe), and basically bankrupt us for generations to come !

In some ways I wish we were more like the French.  When they get the hump about something important at least they have the bollocks to come out and say so - they march, they protest, they riot if they feel it is necessary, they blockade the ports - they get things done !

We sit here like limp wristed fuckers and say "oh I wish it was different" but are actually prepared to do fuck all about it.

That's why I think a vote for a minority party is largely useless at this stage - which reading through the above probably makes me as culpable as the next man !

I agree with you, SS.

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things all of this is moot.

Now Lisbon has been signed this will probably be the last UK General Election. All our MPs do now is to rubber stamp EU directives and Westminster will get dismantled in the next few years as it becomes more pointless and is legislated away by Brussels.

Then we will just be voting for our EU regional MEPs who will have zero influence in a bloated, ineffective European Parliament.

I never could get interested much in this.

Thai politics is different though because it involves tanks and grenades and petrol bombs and stuff, much more exciting.

 :D

I might move.

No hissy fit from me I'm afraid. To show my contempt for Nu labour I've just screwed up a bit of paper and thew it in the bin.  Take that you wankers!  The next step is a revolution!  Down with this sort of thing!

I hope that was a recycling bin !

Maybe you could do something very British and hold a tea party? Like Boston did many moons ago.

It's happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ1gfCrddVs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ1gfCrddVs)

That would be something that UKIP could organise....

It seems quite similar to me.  The locals in Boston threw the tea in the river rather than let it sail back to the UK, and basically stuck 2 fingers up at the British rule - eventually leading to the revolutionary war which of course the brits lost.

It could be UKIP sticking 2 fingers up at the EU, maybe they could throw something significant off a P&O ferry !

That would definitely start a revolution :)

Ken Clarke?

If I was a politician, I know that I would not be able to resist calling him "Darling" all the time, blackadder style.

I'd do it at every opportunity and I bet that I'd get people voting for me because of that reason alone.

I would prefer the Scottish twat......

Thai politics is amazing. I can't work out if Thaksin Shinawatra is the Thai Abraham Lincoln, Robert Mugabe, Fidel Castro or Richard Branson.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8004306.stm

If Cameron says at PMQs that the last person he called Darling was pregnant 30 seconds later, that may be the only circumstance under which I'd vote for him.

Did anyone see Russel Howard's Good News last night? Loved the Cameron posters and general pisstaking.

We have a Monster Raving Loony candidate standing in our constituency.
Camerons our MP at the mo, so he will win because of all the lardy das etc.

Loony man will get my vote

http://www.loonyparty.com/index.php?page=manifestoproposals-1

:D

i'll be voting labour in the general election.i hate the tory party and think people are deluded if they think anything will get better under them.the normal working folk like us wont see alot of difference, but the rich will gain,and those at the bottom will suffer.the tories created the under class we have in britain today.labour are guilty of not dealing with it,but i feel they are better than the tories.
gordon brown, despite his flaws seems a genuine fella.
are things really that bad anyway? personally i'm doing ok, and dont think a change of government will benefit me at all.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion arriba, but obviously its your choice who to vote for.

Personally as a reletively normal working man I feel a shit load worse off under labour, mainly via the level of taxation that has slowly crept up during the last 13 years to pay for the bloated state we now have. The low paid are worse off under labour, so are the middle classes. The properly rich have done just fine. The benefits class must love labour, no need to get a job, we'll get everything paid for and the country will import eastern europeans to do the work. And thats before I even touch on the fact the reason ths country is in a worse financial situation than most other developed nations is because labour recklessly spent money during the good times, rather than pay back some of the existing debt.

No doubt I'll cop a load of shit for saying this (and I have no intention of actually doing it, due to a dislike for them - I've voting Tory) but I'd rather vote BNP than labour. 

There's the rub, CT. The public sector now accounts for 52.1% of Gross Domestic Product. So it is now bigger than the private sector. How does that create wealth? It just means higher taxes to pay for it.

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/politics-and-government/government-bigger-than-private-sector/ (http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/politics-and-government/government-bigger-than-private-sector/)

The spending on benefits is now greater than the take from income tax as well.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5651825/Benefit-payouts-will-exceed-income-tax-revenue.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5651825/Benefit-payouts-will-exceed-income-tax-revenue.html)

Completely unsustainable. What this results in is exactly what labour want - a benefit dependent majority underclass and a majority civil service. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas.

Are you in the real world?

The rich? You mean the ones that work hard and have done well in life and perhaps employ other people? How much tax do you think some of these 'rich' people pay? its a lot more than the unwashed poor pay. Its undeniable that our social security payments are crippling this country ie money to the 'poor' from the people that are working.

Cut the benefits, simplfy the tax system, cut govt jobs and cut the social cost of running this country, cut the quangos, re-adjust the public pension holes to a realistic level. If it wasnt for the 'rich' and people working in proper jobs - ie not govt paid there would be no income for this country.

Just for the sheer hell of it and I know that all forums,emails and social network sites are monitored by the Government's snooping crawling conniving spy's, so I hope you're watching!

Go fuck yourselves you useless shower of robbing bastards, you are all a bunch of tossers!

Who say's you have got to Tax every little iota of luxury, necessity and goodness in life??????

Give it back, you bunch of morons, you make me sick!, Especially since it's been proven you are all on the take!!!!!!!!

i was clearly on about if the tories take over with regards to helping the rich.but if we are going to go on about them, they dont all pay more than the unwashed.plenty of them pay fuck all, which is the same as the unwashed.you've also qouted my post, and come out with alot of stuff i agree with.

i hate the scrounging benefit mongers as much as anybody,but the tories created the current underclass generation that fire out todays hoodie scum.
i dont see them as the answer.
like i've already said,i dont see how a tory government will benefit me,or better what i already have.

i'm by no means happy with labour, and have withdrawn my union subs that used to go in their pocket.i just dont see a better alternative.

I cannot honestly believe you are saying that it is the Tories fault we have hoodie scumbags on our streets ?

What a load of bollocks !

Its 15 years of easy living under labour for the lazy arseholes who don't need to get off their rotten arses becaue they are looked after so when underdear Gordon !

What was the national debt when Labour came to power ?  What is it now ?  Forfucks sake - it was Brown and his stupid economic gambles that haven't paid off....

They will try and tell you that "it's a global recession" - "fuck all to do with us" - well how fucking come we have the largest percentage of national borrowing against GDP of anyone in Europe - on par with poxy Greece !

I have been a labour supporter and voter all my adult life - but I'll be fucked if I ever vote for the robbing cunts again !

To be honest Arriba, the tory government probably wont benefit you as they wont be able to deliver the tax cuts they would like to as the country is in so much debt.

I wouldnt argue that labour directly caused the credit crunch or reccession but their actions in the 11 years prior to it made sure that its going to be a shitload more painful to get the national debt at a manageable that it should be.

I'm not totally convinced that the Torys will be loads better either but I'll take the alternative view that they cant really be any worse.

I'd actually agree with you here. I dont think its being overly cynical to suggest that labours 1m+ increase in public secor workers was a deliberate attempt to buy votes. 

Everyone knows that public sector workers tend to be labour voting and that if the tories ever got into power they were going to cut these jobs as a lot of them are fucking pointless and cost money that we dont have as a nation.

likewise, dole scroungers are not likley to vote for a party that thinks they are lazy cunts and will cut their benefits. They are going to vote for the party that thinks they are victims of society or some such shit.

Turkeys do not vote for Christmas is very apt.

One hours silence.
At 12 0' clock pm every day we will have a one hour silence dedicated to our time that has been lost due to work, home and labour

ace!!!

who are the parents of the hoodie scum?
what generation are they from?
does the national debt effect you in any way really? i can't say i've been hit massively hit in the pocket by labour, infact things are better for me than they've ever been.my mortage rate is fuck all,and tax is more or less what it's always been.
gordon brown was a hero a couple of years ago when the economy was booming,but now it's backfired a bit he's a cunt of the highest order.

if your not voting for the "robbing cunts again" i wish you good luck in finding a better option.let me know who they are and i'll vote for them too

On Arriba's take, I would consider myself to be 'normal working folk', although I do earn well as I do niche (and risky - no job security at all) IT contracting.

I have paid £48,000 in tax and NI so far this year. For what? To give other people an income. I'm not 'rich' and will never be when so much of my earnings is stolen from me.

That's a stupid argument. Labour have been in power for 13 years, you can't point the finger at the previous Tory government after that amount of time. Any problems today are solely down to Labour - they've had more than enough time to fix them.

i agree that labour aint sorted it out,but i stand by my comments that the tories created it.

...and this applies to everything Labour say. Why will anything get any better if they stay in power? They have comprehensively fucked this country up and will continue to do so. How can anybody (including you Arriba) believe that they can do anything good? It's the same with Obama over the pond. For all of his rhetoric about 'change' he is screwing the USA over as much as Blair did - and Brown is - over here. It's what politicians are good at.

How did they create it?

It was booming in an unsustainable way arriba. Whats happened is that people have realised what a fuck up the boom was as it was all based on borrowed money.

And lets be honest, if you declare in parliament as chancellor that you have "abolished boom and bust" then a few years later as prime minister preside over the worst recession for 60 years you are setting yourself up to look like a right incompetant cunt

i'd say the 80's were fucking grim times under them, which saw the breakdown of the country in many ways.
people moan about now, but i think it was far worse back then with mass unemployment and whole communities wrecked by thatcher.
many still have not recovered.

'No more boom and bust' indeed. Also, he inherited a very good economic situation from the previous Conservative government (like it or not), which took a while for even a fucktard like him to bugger up.

Every post war Labour government has been the same. Tax and spend like a man with ten arms.

Well if you've going to blame the Tories for creating the hoddie culture, then you need to give them credit for all of the above as well. It was the Tories that sorted things out when Labour bankrupted the country in the 1970's, reduced tax rates to what they are now and laid the foundations for the financial growth and stability we've had until the last couple of years.

Labour might claim the economic boom as theirs but in reality it was the Tories that got it on the path to recovery prior to Labour coming to power in 1997. All Labour did was preside over a booming economy prior to completely and totally fucking it up, again.

Having said that I don't know that I'll be voting Tory this time. At present its a case of voting for the least worst party rather than the best one, which isn't much of a choice. I'm all in favour of a "none of the above" campaign, if a large percentage of the ballot papers are spoilt the shit will hit the fan and its probably the only way we'll be able to get all the political parties to stop acting like a bunch of complete and utter cunts.

Thatcher didn't destroy those communities the workers and their unions did that, all Thatcher did was give them the rope to hang themselves. Anyone who thinks the destruction of the unions that Thatcher presided over was a bad thing obviously can't be planning to travel by plane or train in the near future. If anything we need her back to destroy the remaining militant unions so they can stop fucking the whole country over, again.

Ah yes. Thatcher 1979-1990. Blair/Brown 1997 on. I can see how effective they have been in stimulating economic activity and bringing unemployment down in the last 13 years. 'Far worse' under Thatcher, eh?

[url width=732 height=472]http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2009/Feb/uk-real-unemployment-nov08.gif[/url]

I was reading about this the other day. The true economoically inactive percentage of the working age population is over 20%.  Even considering that some of those people dont want or need jobs and recieve no state support (ie housewives or rich people basically) thats a fucking shocking figure which goes along way to explain why the country is broke.

i couldn't disagree more.
the unions fight to protect the workers, who would get shit on if it wasn't for them.
how are the unions fucking the country over?
i think the fat cats are,not the unions.
you mention the trains.flogged off by the tories and a shit service it is. should still be a public service,just like the gas,electric,water etc.

The structural economic disparity in the country is between old and young - more than it has ever been. It's not about Labour or Tories. And it's kind of broken forever.

If you're 55, chances are you own your own house, you have decent pension provision, you're relatively clear of debt, though credit has been easy to get. If you went to University, it was mostly paid for and you were able to get on the housing ladder. There have been, if not jobs for life, then decent employment opportunities for the majority of your career. (obviously, with lots of exceptions, like miners).

If you're 25, chances are you've just graduated from a university with thousands of pounds worth of debt and you're coming into a job market that will treat your degree as a right to an entry level job. Even if you could pay off your debt and raise enough for a mortgage, no-one will lend to you.

The only pension provision you will get is that which you provide yourself, whilst an increasing portion of the income you do earn will go to funding the pensions of the 55 year olds with all the wealth.

There are four ways for a 'normal' person to accumulate wealth: property, investment, pension entitlement and inheritance. Except for the last, each of these doors are closed to this generation, who are condemned to live hand to mouth for the majority of their working lives. I'm not sure you can blame the EU, or immigrants, or Labour or the Tories, but the current generation of 15-25 year olds are fucked and will be living with their parents til they're 40.

A shit service that makes money for the economy, unlike Royal Mail for example which is haemorrhaging money out of it's arse because the Union members are reticent to change.

I was shocked to find out just how much money a single parent with a couple of kids can get from the state - more than enough to have a pretty comfortable life style in a pretty decent house. There seems to be little to no attempt to make the absent parent to pay their fare share or to get the parent with the kids to work.

From top to bottom the entire benefits system is completely and utterly fucked and it is getting worse and worse under Labour. I dread to think how much money is being pissed away compared to how it could be if it was done properly, yet there seems to be little emphasis on sorting it out from any of the parties.

Completely blinkered. I am not a union member and I am not being fucked over. Neither is my partner, my two eldest working children or any of my friends who work in non-unionised organisations. We are all happy with our pay and conditions. It is only the public sector, nationalised or recently nationalised monopolies that have unions any more. Why? Because there is no competition and so it lines the pockets of the union leaders. I agree with Jonny, unions are complete dog shite - look at the effect it has on the railways, Royal Mail and BA.

what that doesn't show is how communities were wrecked.nor does it show how times have changed, mass immigration etc.

No it doesn't. The rail network is more heavily subsidised now than it was when it was nationalised. Like the banks, all that's been privatised is the profit, not the risk

International comparisons for UK unemployment now tend to include people on long-term incapacity benefit. One big reason for this is that when they went through the mine closures, tens of thousands of people were put on incapacity benefit rather than the dole. There are some shocking stats about places like Merthyr Tydfil, where nearly the whole working population is on benefits and the local economy is dead.

So yeah, Thatcher was ace.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4217648.stm

it's not that simple sam.
royal mail makes a profit too.

it's the fucking useless fat cats that ruin it,not the unions

I wondered when you would be along  ;)

I completely agree with you Paul. Bring back the Great Western Railway proper, I say.

[url width=422 height=388]http://www.steamindex.com/media/gwrlogo.gif[/url]

This

if you believe that bollocks then you might aswell vote tory, talk talk

In which way do 'the fucking useless fat cats' ruin non-unionised successful businesses? Such as Virgin, Hanson, AstraZeneca, Sky etc? I would have thought that they want them to have content workers, to be profitable and hence pay dividends on the equity invested in them.

Bollocks. And I promised myself I was going to stay out of this one :)

But really I will now  :bye:

iDave and his Shadow Cabinet are very different from Thatcher (in her early years, before she lost the plot and went bonkers).

i'm off to futsal, so will get back on this when i get home.

I should be nicely plastered by then. Oh dear, I had better warm my denim jacket up.  :blowup:

Good thread,not a fan of unions but i do tend to side with them in the present climate.
That Twat Walsh is on a million a year so he dosnt give a fuck...what i despise is that big buisness in this country more or less regulate themselfs...even the police force...not to mention the catholic church(sorry)firms like Honda can do as they please,and they do,is that a good thing...not in my book.
Us as British workers work harder than all of our european neighbours,,we are obsessed with work,we do more hours for less pay(after taxation etc)than alot of these nations.
As i drive around our green and pleasant land i feel privelidged at times..for such a small nation we are so diverse and thrive on fair play...but ask alot of workers in todays Britain and a big percentage will say theres not much fair play in todays big buisness.
So i say to you brothers i urge you to stand up and fight!...shite i am turning scouse.

Leefer I am completely the other way....

I feel the unions fucked up the coal industry, they are fucking up the Mail service, they are fucking up B.A. and they will end up completely fucking up the trains.....

I guess what I can't understand is this....

A company gets hit during the recession - loses a whole heap of money and cannot sustain the employess it has because of this.  Therefore it takes a sensible approach and talks about redundancy - with that te unions are all "well fuck this we will go on strike then" - how the fuck does that help anything ?

Simple economics tell you that some companies cannot be sustained at their current levels but do the unions care about that ?

Most private sector workers accept that cuts and difficult choices have to be made - they accept less pay, or less hours - in order to safeguard their jobs and the company.

However mention that to a union ledcompany and the shit hits the fan !

Abolish the lot of them I say !

The government has give all the unions millions of taxpayers money for 'modernisation' purposes, but Labour has got most of the money back from Unite to help pay for the election and to cover the Labour party's debts.

Something doesn't smell right with that.

Good points...BUT...big buisness have it good for years,do what we do and put away for a rainy day.
Theres no doubts unions havnt helped there cause  in many cases.....but the banking industry has shown us what can happen with no safeguards...many workers see unions as a safeguard rightly or wrongly...i travel all over and deliver to many big companys,and its always the workers little perks that get taken away,the canteen,free healthcare or subsidiced travel....but you can guarantee the chauffere travel and beanos for the top brass are still in place.
Now i am not saying the GWR years ago was heaven but even Brunel and his top dogs knew that free healthcare,canteens,swimming pools and free rail travel would help the workers and give them a few comforts....that was 150 years ago,he would be turning in his grave if he saw BR today.

Bangkok red is alright isn't he?

Like it Tans!

Yawn

Fuck off to bed if your tired....its past 8.

the whole politics debate is never ending and cannot be won really.for every opinion, there is a counter one.
i'm pro union and others are anti.i hate the tories, others think they are the answer.
at least we are able to have the debates we have, and make the choices we do.long may that continue!
think i'll leave it at that.

I'm all for workers rights and aren't opposed to unions of some form but the right to strike needs to be taken away as in the vast majority of cases its a completely unjustifiable and disproportionate response. Maybe some kind of enforced mediation would be the solution - if there is a dispute it goes to an independent mediator whose decision is binding on both parties.

I still don't get what unions gain from strike action. Any moron can see that strikes at any company will lose it money which in the longer term is only going to lead to more redundancies and lower pay as the company has to make up for the losses one way or another. Its always the employees that are going to lose out.

maybe i wont leave it at that.

jonny,take the last postal dispute.the union repeatedly requested the intervention of acas to resolve the issues.royal mail refused this and wouldn't play ball,ignored agreed procedures etc.the union then balloted for strikes which then took place.in the end royal mail agreed to acas coming in to mediate.so if they had done this from the start there would have been no strikes.had there been no union, they would have just done whatever they liked to the workforce and service.
time and time again posties were told there was no money,yet crozier and his croneys were coining in huge bonuses.fats cats creaming it in,whilst the workers had their existing roles attacked.
i wouldn't call that unions wrecking royal mail.infact i'd say totally the opposite as they were trying to protect the service and jobs.

On the other hand I work for someone in exchange for money. They throw all kinds of shit at me and I gotta take it because I need the money. I can always look for another job if I don't like it.

Strikes should only occur as a very last resort to leaving your job, if the employer is seriously taking the piss. How many times have Royal Mail workers striked in the last decade? Quite honestly why do they work there if it is really that shit and makes them that unhappy?

of course people could leave and plenty do.
but if you have an employer who is taking the piss, at least as a union member you have a voice and can stick together.
those who are not in unions and have all manner of shit thrown at them, will either have to accept it or move on.
there seems to be a rise in employees getting more shit by the day in all manner of jobs.
i think those who are treated well and are not part of a union can count themselves lucky.i wouldn't count on it lasting.

Unions are a good idea to facilitate reducing the gap between employer and employee expectations. I'm not against the idea of Unions as such. I just don't understand the merit of much of the strike action which occurs because it pretty much never achieves what it sets out to do.

I haven't got a problem with unions either. As long as it is voluntary collective bargaining, as in getting together because as an employee you want someone else to represent your common objectives.

What is completely wrong is the imposition of union membership. It's just like having the mafia around. Just like a mafia, it isn't about protection, it is about exploitation of the 'subscribers' and wealth and power for the union dons.

Monopolies almost demand unions, because there is no competition. Which is why I hate the form that they take in this country.

Stand up and fight for what? Unemployment?

This country is poised on the rim of the economic toilet. We don't manufacture anything any more. We no longer innovate or lead the world in design or technology. Our service industry as it stands is circular, providing to the same population. The only thing we have had for the last twenty years is some very clever people in the City of London who have been able to make money out of the world because they were the focus of the financial markets. Now even they are being driven abroad because of the retards in power are legislating their incomes away. Yeah, let them be 'fat cats', at least they were keeping the country afloat. Madness.

So what's left? Ah, England - the global tourist destination. There's nothing else. Swindon twinned with Disneyland? I fucking hope so, at least we will get some foreign exchange.

[url width=320 height=240]http://huseyincakir.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/thats-all-folks.jpg[/url]

Except for the British designed processor that is used in 98% of all mobile phones sold.

Other than that we're shit though.

From the other side of the world it clearly looks like the British ecomony is in a very, very fucked up state.
Like many of your comments I to was left of centre in the mid 1980's and hated the divide and distroy antics of the then Tory govenment lead by queen bitch...
However, it is clear that Britain is now suffering from all the politcal correctness or lack of leadership shown for so long under Tony Blair and his clowns..
Britain will need a complete change of focus in work ethics and possibly the hard reality of a break down in social welfare payments / hand outs. The cold hard facts are that the type of behaviour (relying on govenment handouts for suppliments / payments / top ups) has now become the norm for the majority of families that it could take a major national / international disastor to bring back reality once again. 
In saying that employers need to take a stand where they need to reward their staff with realistic pay rates where their work force don't need to get "top ups" to simply survive. Hopefully this would encourage more productivity in the work force. By the same token welfare payments need to be adjusted / trimmed back to an affordable level. God forbid, I am now sounding like a fucking Tory...!!!
As for trying to up the taxes on petrol, cider or tabbaco to rectify the past ill managed decisions..I suggest it would be like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic just prior to its sinking.     :bye:     

I noticed some figures yesterday in regards to the country's debt. When Nu Labour tookover in '97 the public debt was some £365bn, large but manageable.

Over the last few years the debt has shot up, and is expected to be in the region of £785bn at the end of the tax year, and increase of £150bn in a YEAR.

Instead of tackling that, and try to cut the deficit, under the tax and spending plans in the budget, it is estimated to virtually double again over the next five years to £1.4tn (TRILLION), a massive 75% of GDP.

We're fooked under Labour.

I really shouldn't get involved in this thread, but that 'fact' (and Toddy's post that there has been a >1M increase in the public sector workforce under Labour) has shocked me somewhat. Where exactly have they been employed then? Doing what? Because they sure as hell aren't in my area of the public sector, which has been cut left right and centre for the last 15 years. So I'm just curious as to what areas of the public sector they have been employed in. 

Fuck me I didn't realise you lived in 1930's Chicago.

Fuck me I didn't realise you lived in 1950's USSR.

You think you two have got it bad! I'm living in Coventry in the early 80's

Fantastic.  How are the specials?

Actually they're called scopeys now.

 :D

You'll be pleased to know Gazza that the cider duty has been dropped

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8606373.stm

Yay! :beers: