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25% => The Boardroom => Topic started by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 11:26:40



Title: Rights Issue
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 11:26:40
Club announcement...

Quote
SWINDON TOWN FC ANNOUNCEMENT
Posted on: Wed 30 Sep 2009

STFC has announced further changes to strengthen the financial base of the Club.

At the time of the last AGM in October 2008, STFC took steps to undertake a restructuring of its share capital thereby enabling it to strengthen its balance sheet. At that time, it also announced that it would, at some stage in the future, make further changes and make a Rights Issue to further strengthen the balance sheet by raising new share capital.

The changes announced today will achieve the following:

1 Strengthen the balance sheet of the Club by the issue of 2,000,000 new shares which will be offered to all existing shareholders.

2 Raise additional funds for the Club.

3 Enable existing shareholders to participate in the ownership of the Club.

4 Deal with the administrative problem that of nearly 3,500 shareholders, there are 800 shareholders for whom the club has no contact details and that in many cases the Club has had no correspondence with them for many years.

The basis of the restructuring is a Rights Issue. It is proposed that the existing 18,000,000 1p shares will be consolidated into shares of £1 and that 2,000,000 new £1 shares will be issued.

When a 75% interest in the Club was acquired by Swindon Football Holdings Ltd (SFHL) in January 2008, SFHL agreed to advance a minimum of £3,500,000 in order for STFC to commence the process of eliminating its debts. Since that time, SFHL has advanced £7,500,000 to STFC as it has continued to clean up the Club, deal with issues from the past (e.g. the Corporate Voluntary Arrangement, amounts owing to HM Revenue & Customs, the Datasat litigation, etc) and provide for its future development.

From a practical point of view, it is obviously unrealistic for Club shareholders to expect SFHL to continue to fund STFC without recourse to other shareholders and, accordingly, today's Rights Issue, which will be underwritten by SFHL, will give existing shareholders the opportunity to invest further in the Club. Shareholders will be offered the opportunity to purchase shares pro rata to their existing holdings with a minimum investment of £100.

Swindon Town FC

The Directors of the Club are encouraging all shareholders to take part in the share issue which it sees as an essential part of strengthening the Club whilst, at the same time, continuing to offer all fans the opportunity to remain as shareholders in the Club. STFC is also proposing to issue a small number of shares, on the same basis, to a number of people who are not currently shareholders, but who have expressed an interest in investing in the Club.

Commenting on the Rights Issue, Chairman, Andrew Fitton, said:

"STFC has always been, and continues to be a community club with a strong base amongst the population of Swindon. We are very keen that existing shareholders continue to have an affinity and involvement with the Club and an opportunity to invest in its future. Over time however, we have lost contact with a great many shareholders and this exercise will help us create an up to date share register and allow communication that is more efficient.

"SFHL has invested a large amount of money in the Club, but for a relatively modest sum, existing shareholders can continue to hold a stake in their Club."

The Annual General Meeting of the Club will be held on Tuesday 20th October 2009 at 6.30pm in the Legends Lounge.

http://www.swindontownfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10341~1810344,00.html


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: leefer on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 11:59:58
Cheers Sam...interesting.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Ardiles on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 12:03:44
Maybe this has come at the wrong time for many fans, though.  Under normal circumstances, I would probably have been tempted to throw another £100 at some more shares.  But given that the investment is only an emotional one (ie no one really expects to get any money back or make a financial return), this is discretionary/luxury expenditure...and many of us are reining back on that right now.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 12:19:17
According that article, the Fitton Consortium have put £7.5m into the club already. Blimey, I didn't realise we were making that sort of sized loss.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 12:26:42
Blimey, I didn't realise we were making that sort of sized loss.

We aren't, that's historic debt. The ongoing annual shortfall was a mere £3m or so!



Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: iffy on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 12:57:25
Maybe this has come at the wrong time for many fans, though.  Under normal circumstances, I would probably have been tempted to throw another £100 at some more shares.  But given that the investment is only an emotional one (ie no one really expects to get any money back or make a financial return), this is discretionary/luxury expenditure...and many of us are reining back on that right now.

Quite the opposite, they don't want your money. IMHO this seems like an exercise in tidying up the shareholder register and consolidating control. SFHL are underwriting the issue. Underwriting the non-subscribed rights (ie buying the shares offered to small shareholders that the small shareholders don't take up) will I imagine will take them over 90% control, which gives them rights to buy the remaining shares if they want (called "squeeze out" rights). It may also offer the holding company tax advantages, but I can't remember if that's right.

Absolutely nothing to be worried about because the shares people hold aren't (really) worth anything anyway. Sensible, practical financial stuff from SFHL.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Power to people on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 13:10:47
I think major shareholders after Fitton & Co is the Wills family and Wendy Godwin, not sure what % they have, if they do not subscribe to the rights issue then their share holding will be watered down big time.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 18:56:45
From :http://www.swindontownfc.co.uk/staticFiles/71/3f/0,,10341~147313,00.pdf


At the same time, while much positive progress has been made since my appointment as
Chairman in January 2008, the current board is still resolving a number of issues that relate to the tenure
of the previous board of directors and it is possible that further liabilities may yet crystallise, in which
case the Club may have to raise additional funds to meet such liabilities.


It seems there is some stuff still coming out of the woodwork nearly 2 years after the takeover.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Dazzza on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 19:27:42
What else could there be in the closet?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 19:47:35
We haven't signed Sol Campbell as far as I know


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: chalkies_shorts on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 19:51:03
Maybe they've just found Ruddock's bar bill


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 19:51:34
Or the invoice for his shorts.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 19:54:08
What else could there be in the closet?

Fatbury?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 19:54:21
Was my gay joke overshadowed by the money joke? Damnit, I hate double meanings.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Dazzza on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 20:04:53
Fatbury?
Where is Fatters he hasn't been on here in ages?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Bogus Dave on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 20:05:15
Think he's a cheltenham fan now


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 20:11:18
Where is Fatters he hasn't been on here in ages?

He was at the match on Saturday. Talking of Saturday and changing subject completely I was quite pleased to not hear very much moaning at the top of the DR. I normally hear Fatbury whinging like a girl but even he was fairly quiet. Although he did leave before the end. Even that bloke with the long blonde hair and his mates were very reserved.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Samdy Gray on Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 20:11:57
Think he's a cheltenham fan now

And Arsenal. And Ebsfleet. And Celtic.

He was in The Merlin on Saturday.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Power to people on Thursday, October 1, 2009, 12:37:15
They also want to create 10,000,000 unallocated new shares for future investment


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: iffy on Thursday, October 1, 2009, 13:28:31
They also want to create 10,000,000 unallocated new shares for future investment

Pretty standard. You issue more so you don't have to go through the admin of issuing them again. That way you've got them on hand if one of us wins the lottery and wants to dump in a million quid.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Thursday, October 1, 2009, 21:35:03
You mean they're going to authorise more? Probably a fair way to put some more investment into the club later down the line.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 09:08:53
Having read the capital consolidation and rights issue letter I can't help but feel a little miffed. I'm sure Fitton sold the idea at the AGM in quite the same way.

I certainly can't afford £100 to remain a shareholder. Oh well.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 13:26:08
Having read the capital consolidation and rights issue letter I can't help but feel a little miffed. I'm sure Fitton sold the idea at the AGM in quite the same way. I certainly can't afford £100 to remain a shareholder. Oh well.

Is there any benefit from being a shareholder any more?

Fitton is pretty open with things and information spreads round quickly and easily thanks to the interweb. What are the benefits of remaining a shareholder, are there any other than being able to say you're a shareholder? I've lost track of the number of shares I've got but I'm pretty certain I'll be left with some after the consolidation, I won't be putting any more money in and wouldn't be buying shares if I was left with none.

The only thing that concerns me a bit about the new shares they're creating is that it appears they can sell them to whoever they want, whenever they want and at whatever price they want. So initially there will be 2m shares sold at £1 each and potentially they could issue 10m more shares at 1p each if they wanted. Which puts me off even more from putting more money in.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: ahounsell on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 14:00:45
Is there any benefit from being a shareholder any more?

Fitton is pretty open with things and information spreads round quickly and easily thanks to the interweb.

The current board are pretty open but they wont be the club board for ever. There remains the possibility that future boards will not be so open.

I suspect the main reason for most small shareholders to buy shares is to help the club. The main benefit is being entitled to attend the AGM and hear from the board first hand. Yes you can probably read a report of the AGM afterwards, but its never going to be the same as being there in person and having the opportunity to raise points yourself.

The large number of new shares is a concern, but the ability to create and issue large numbers of shares exists with or without this resolution, this just makes it quicker and easier. (A huge increase in the number of issued shares was how the Fitton takeover was effected, which had the effect of diluting existing shareholdings.)

Probably for most small shareholders, there wont be any practical advantage to participating in the rights issue. It will just come down to if they can afford it and do they want to help the club financially.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 16:13:11
Having read the capital consolidation and rights issue letter I can't help but feel a little miffed. I'm sure Fitton sold the idea at the AGM in quite the same way.

I certainly can't afford £100 to remain a shareholder. Oh well.
I can and probably will but I'm not surprised you feel miffed and I'm sure other small shareholders will as well. They were pretty open that you might need to "make up" the difference in share values (the example given was 1p->10p but I don't think 1p->£1 is too big a burden) but there was no mention of a minimum subscription. A lot of people who've bought or been bought single shares or maybe 5-10 for sentimental reasons or just so they can feel part of their club are not going to have 100 quid spare at a few weeks' notice and will feel pushed out by this.

I understand the need to rationalise the share register but it's disappointing there couldn't have been some effort put into making some accomodation for existing shareholders by allowing them to, for example, upgrade on a like-for-like basis rather than forcing everyone into the £100 minimum subscription. Even a compromise of maybe a £10 minimum sub for existing small shareholders would have allowed many more people to remain as shareholders than will be the case now


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 16:38:34
I understand the need to rationalise the share register but it's disappointing there couldn't have been some effort put into making some accomodation for existing shareholders by allowing them to, for example, upgrade on a like-for-like basis rather than forcing everyone into the £100 minimum subscription. Even a compromise of maybe a £10 minimum sub for existing small shareholders would have allowed many more people to remain as shareholders than will be the case now

It costs money for a company to manage its shareholders - processing payments for shares, issuing share certificates, handling share sales and transfers, maintaining the share holder register, sending out company paperwork, agm costs and so on. If they set the minimum subscription at £10, it would cost the club more than that in the first year alone - do you think its right that the club foots the bill to enable people to own a share of the club?

Part of the problem is the previous boards allowing the shareholdings / shareholders to get in to such a mess and allowing people to own a very small number of shares (which they actually encouraged / caused at one point).


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 17:15:43
It costs money for a company to manage its shareholders - processing payments for shares, issuing share certificates, handling share sales and transfers, maintaining the share holder register, sending out company paperwork, agm costs and so on. If they set the minimum subscription at £10, it would cost the club more than that in the first year alone - do you think its right that the club foots the bill to enable people to own a share of the club?
All fair points, although I think the numbers involved wouldn't be huge, so any costs would likely be minimal. Although I don't know whether that's the case, if there would be a substantial cost, the point becomes more pertinent.

Quote
Part of the problem is the previous boards allowing the shareholdings / shareholders to get in to such a mess and allowing people to own a very small number of shares (which they actually encouraged / caused at one point).
Along with everything else :) Like I say, I understand the need to rationalise the mess they've inherited, just feel it's a little disappointing for some of the small shareholders they couldn't have been accommodated at a less prohibitive price, is all.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 17:43:54
All fair points, although I think the numbers involved wouldn't be huge, so any costs would likely be minimal. Although I don't know whether that's the case, if there would be a substantial cost, the point becomes more pertinent.

The club needs to stop losing money and be run like a business rather than a charity. The shares changes might not save much money but it all helps and more importantly it all adds up. Even if it only saves £5k a year, if you save that amount in 10 areas over 5 years you've saved £250k.

I think some kind of savings plan would be a good idea - pay £10 or more a month during the season (July through April) then they get converted in to shares at the end of the season. Maybe give a discount of £10 to season ticket holders so they get £100 worth for £90.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 17:44:39
So, using my GCSE maths expertise, with 2,000,000 shares being sold at GBP1.00 each, potential income from this is GBP2,000,000.

What will that money be used for?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Batch on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 17:48:01
Having read the capital consolidation and rights issue letter I can't help but feel a little miffed. I'm sure Fitton sold the idea at the AGM in quite the same way.

I certainly can't afford £100 to remain a shareholder. Oh well.

Ditto. That is all.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 17:58:20
So, using my GCSE maths expertise, with 2,000,000 shares being sold at GBP1.00 each, potential income from this is GBP2,000,000.

What will that money be used for?

Whilst the share issue documents don't spell it out, it appears it will be used as working capital and it pretty much says part will be used to cover losses in the current financial year. It reads as though SFHL feel they've put enough money in already and they want others to chip in. SFHL will pick up any shares that aren't sold but they will only pay cash if necessary to cover the current years losses - the rest will be paid for by converting loans to shares.

So unless something spectacular happens it seems more funds will need to be raised for next season with SFHL looking to others to put the money in. Though you'd imagine they'll cover it if they have to as they wouldn't really have any other choice, given the money they've already put in.

I imagine things will change drastically when (if) the redevelopment gets the go ahead as there will most likely be a solid business plan in place which will show a return on an investment. So either SFHL or others will be a lot more likely to put some cash in to the club.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 18:18:35
Thanks Jonny.

All very interesting.

Elsewhere I've read that Carlisle lost GBP1.2million last season, and Walsall are really struggling with low crowds too.

Fitton's prophecy of 6+ clubs going into admin could yet come true.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 18:22:08
Carlisle article for anyone who is interested: http://www.carlisleunited.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10361~1812483,00.html

What I found remarkable was that their income was even as high as GBP4.2million!


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 18:26:21
The club needs to stop losing money and be run like a business rather than a charity. The shares changes might not save much money but it all helps and more importantly it all adds up. Even if it only saves £5k a year, if you save that amount in 10 areas over 5 years you've saved £250k.
I don't think it would save anything near that though. One rather salient point I missed out of my original reply (it was in my head, just forgot to include it so you can't be expected to read my mind :)) is that one of the things they passed at the last AGM was email notification for shareholders. So you have to actively opt in to ask for letters to be sent to you as a shareholder. If you factor in the number of "dead entries" on the share register (ie people who've moved or who are actually dead) who won't reply to a letter because the info on them is out of date, the number of people who won't actively take up any share swap because they're not that bothered, and then the number of people who would be more than happy to receive notifications by email, you're left with a handful who still actively want to be shareholders who don't have internet access. Those are the only ones who are actually costing you on a year-by-year basis, once you've sent out share certificates (a one-off) to those who actively wish to be shareholders but are happy for communications to be sent by email etc.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Samdy Gray on Sunday, October 4, 2009, 19:11:09
Michael, what's wrong with your '£' key?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Monday, October 5, 2009, 17:19:28
There appears to be some kind of forum configuration conflict with my character map Sam.

Essentially the GBP sign is nowhere to be found.

Strangely though everything else works as it should do.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Summer of Noughtie Nine on Saturday, October 10, 2009, 09:15:14
Let's have a naked AGM!


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 09:05:23
It was nice to be at an AGM, and feel wanted for a change, and for anyone who predicted the stadium would be turned 90 degrees in the ground development... it's not going to happen.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Batch on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 09:10:52
It was nice to be at an AGM, and feel wanted for a change, and for anyone who predicted the stadium would be turned 90 degrees in the ground development... it's not going to happen.

So what was said then?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: ahounsell on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 09:40:40
So what was said then?

A report of the AGM can be read at the link below :-
http://www.truststfc.co.uk/news_item.php?id=1354 (http://www.truststfc.co.uk/news_item.php?id=1354)

As for the ground development, I think its fair the say that the front runner is for the pitch to stay in its current orientation and the ground to be developed one stand at a time with only the Don Rogers stand remaining in its current form.

Nothing is set in stone though so we'll have to wait and see what they come up with. We should see some more detail before the end of the current season.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 09:50:59
So what was said then?

What I remember :

The accounts for 2009 were not quite ready, but they will be posted on the OS by the end of the week and they will be sent to Companies House EARLY, meaning NO fines. It will report another big loss of over £2m. They predict that with increased income this season, that that loss will hopefully half. They reckon that the club needs to bring in around £7m worth of income a season to break even (this season is predicted to bring in around £4m).

Regarding ground development, it is hoped there will be a plan with the council around the first quarter of next year. If we stay at the CG, Fitton hopes the ground will likely be developed one stand at a time. The DRS will be left alone, with the development most likely to start with the TE, but this is his personal view, which will have to be discussed with any future developers.

The share issue/capital revaluation, is just a tidying up exercise, which has reduced the number of shareholders to around 500. Just 21,000 was bought by other shareholders out of 500k available (STFH took their 1.5m shares as they had already a 75% holding).


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: glos_robin on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 10:13:10
They reckon that the club needs to bring in around £7m worth of income a season to break even

I can't see that happening anytime soon even if we flirt with the Championship. £7 million means almost doubling our income which would be a remarkable feat if it ever materialises, only a sustained period of success would do that.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 10:34:50
I totally forgot about this, for some reason I thought it was on before a home game


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 10:38:44
I totally forgot about this, for some reason I thought it was on before a home game

It was, but they had to move it.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Summerof69 on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 10:41:26
I can't see that happening anytime soon even if we flirt with the Championship. £7 million means almost doubling our income which would be a remarkable feat if it ever materialises, only a sustained period of success would do that.

That was all dependent on getting 'bums on seats' and all the extras around that. They are working hard in getting the local people back to the CG.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Phil_S on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 15:03:36
Must say I'm impressed with the way the advertising has increased around the ground.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 16:24:51
Its worrying that the club is still losing so much money and that such a massive increase in income is needed to turn things round. Its crazy that people are still having to pump in cash to clubs such as Swindon to keep them going, surely something needs to be done to sort the mess out that most clubs are in?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 16:28:24
Its worrying that the club is still losing so much money and that such a massive increase in income is needed to turn things round. Its crazy that people are still having to pump in cash to clubs such as Swindon to keep them going, surely something needs to be done to sort the mess out that most clubs are in?

In reality, clubs should go part time.....there's no justification for the mediocre player that we see, to be paid so much.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 16:49:45
In reality, clubs should go part time.....there's no justification for the mediocre player that we see, to be paid so much.
Following in some unpleasant footsteps there, Reg, or are you deliberately setting yourself up as Swindon's answer to Peter Kenyon?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2545103.stm
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2580/29/


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Reg Smeeton on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 17:24:41
Following in some unpleasant footsteps there, Reg, or are you deliberately setting yourself up as Swindon's answer to Peter Kenyon?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2545103.stm
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2580/29/

Old news there Mr D, but it doesn't alter the basic fact, that lower league pro football in this country doesn't make a great deal of sense.

There should be no reason why it can't continue, but the players are paid too much.

When the system evolved there was a maximum wage, and players weren't paid out of season....this meant although clubs were often a bit skint, the sums involved were more manageable.

Now the fans are charged too much, and aren't necessarily getting a better product because of it.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: leefer on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 17:38:15
Players wages,policing bills,stewarding bills.staff wages,health and safety needs...all costs big money...Reg is right though players wages are the main reason why clubs are struggling financially...at the top end clubs can afford it as they are getting the revenue,and also can borrow on the back of TV revenue..at our end its different..the only answer is joining them.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 17:51:15
Old news there Mr D, but it doesn't alter the basic fact, that lower league pro football in this country doesn't make a great deal of sense.

There should be no reason why it can't continue, but the players are paid too much.

When the system evolved there was a maximum wage, and players weren't paid out of season....this meant although clubs were often a bit skint, the sums involved were more manageable.

Now the fans are charged too much, and aren't necessarily getting a better product because of it.
I'd agree the players are overpaid, but what you initially advocated was lower league clubs going semi-pro, a la Kenyon. But if only the top two leagues are fully professional. that would effectively pull up the drawbridge on the top two leagues, as it would be nigh on impossible for 3rd/4th tier semi-pro teams to bridge the gap. It's the same reason why over half the Conference is now full time, because otherwise they can't hope to compete in terms of getting League status. Lower wages yes, I'd wholly agree, and enforced by a wage cap, but going fully semi-pro in the bottom two tiers is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I suspect Phil Gartside would also agree with you though, would greatly help out with his own "pulling up the drawbridge behind us" plans.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 18:27:14
I'm not sure what the solution is but something needs to be done.

Something has to happen with regard to wages. Whether the players are worth what they are paid isn't really relevant, the only relevant thing is that clubs can't afford them so they must be paying too much. Its kind of stupid in that its competition between clubs for players that push the wages up, but this also means it could be solved pretty easily by enforcing wage caps.

I reckon the top clubs have to be part of the solution as well. Especially as they have so many quality players not playing or in the reserves - those same players could be out on loan to lower league clubs for free (the top clubs won't be losing anything as they'd be paying them anyway plus they'd be getting experience).

I'm in favour of radically changing the loan system. Allowing an unlimited number of loan players and short term (even 1 game) loans would be a great start. If its done right, lower league clubs could reduce their player head count as they could rely on loan players from the top clubs.



Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 18:58:32
Something has to happen with regard to wages. Whether the players are worth what they are paid isn't really relevant, the only relevant thing is that clubs can't afford them so they must be paying too much. Its kind of stupid in that its competition between clubs for players that push the wages up, but this also means it could be solved pretty easily by enforcing wage caps.

I reckon the top clubs have to be part of the solution as well.
Yup. Wage caps from the top down, else otherwise you just create an unbridgeable divide. Which is the problem with the Kenyon/Gartside/Smeeton solution.

Quote
I'm in favour of radically changing the loan system. Allowing an unlimited number of loan players and short term (even 1 game) loans would be a great start. If its done right, lower league clubs could reduce their player head count as they could rely on loan players from the top clubs.
That's pretty much already happening, but it's not enough by itself - clubs are still losing money hand over fist with the majority of it going on players' wages.

The problem is the TV money that has allowed the top flight to pull away from the rest of the FL (and the top of the top flight to do so within the PL) has not "trickled down" as it was supposed to, but the wage inflation has. Tackle the problem at root - there is no sane reality in which any individual merits (or can actually even spend) £100,000+  a week.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 19:37:55
GBP7,000,000 to break even?

That sounds like a ridiculous amount of money to me.

Is it fair to assume that is required to enable board loans to be repaid as well?

I am going to put it out there that someone wants out.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 21:21:38
GBP7,000,000 to break even?
Well, yes and no, the £7m came in as that was the revenue they said they needed to get to to be sustainable in the Championship, not League 1, although I don't think "sustainable" meant breaking-even in the Championship as Fitton said he thought they'd make a higher loss in Championship. More a case of that's the kind of revenue you should be generating to be a sustainable mid-table Championship side (ie not just overachieving for one season and yo-yoing between Championship/League One)

But at the moment we're making an operating loss of £2.8m (before player sales) with a revenue of just under £4m, so not far off that for break-even, if you assume no revenue from player sales, no cup runs etc just the basic revenue from ticket sales with an average gate of around 7500 IIRC.

I don't think that board loans play a significant part in that, most of it is salary and operating costs (not least because they've just converted a tidy chunk of loans into share capital via the rights issue).


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Phil_S on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 09:19:09
The problem is as Paul says undoubtably the TV money situation but also the desire of some mega rich men to have afootball club as a hobby.
Th e problem is that the only way any of the TV money gets below the premier league is when a club gets relegated & still get their "parachute payments". (Bit like West Brom). But even then the payment appears to be enough to let some clubs yo yo between the Premier & Championship.
Most of the transfer money goes abroad. Is that beacuse most premier league managers are from abroad ? (Probably no.). The amount going on wages is in my opinion down to the Bosman ruling.
Even with the TV money though some of the premier ship clubs are still on huge unsustainable wage bills & that where the multi billionaires come in.
So ultimately the problem is the TV punter who pays his monthly subscription to Sky pardoxically sometimes cos he can't afford to go to watch his "team" because they are the other end of the country, (& because the ticket price is too high beacause the players are on high wages).
But  the mega rich have raised it to another level.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 09:44:19
Its been said many a time before, but the future is an American style approach:

1. A top tier of a small group of massive clubs that pay a fortune to the players and play to a major audience on one day per weekend and one evening per week. No promotion nor relegation.

2. A farm league/division funded partially by the big boys. Teams play on the other weekend day and another evening in the week. This is basically reserve team football in all but name. The clubs are owned by the big boys and develop players.

3. A semi-pro regional league sponsored from above or populated by young kids. Split regionally to reduce costs. Some sort of playoff mechanism and maximum amount of time that you can play in the league before you either progress or are released.

4. Amateur leagues.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:21:22
I'm sorry but that sounds shit. Promotion and relegation is what football is all about. We dont need an American style play off system as we already have cups for that sort of thing


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:22:03
Its been said many a time before, but the future is an American style approach:

1. A top tier of a small group of massive clubs that pay a fortune to the players and play to a major audience on one day per weekend and one evening per week. No promotion nor relegation.

2. A farm league/division funded partially by the big boys. Teams play on the other weekend day and another evening in the week. This is basically reserve team football in all but name. The clubs are owned by the big boys and develop players.

3. A semi-pro regional league sponsored from above or populated by young kids. Split regionally to reduce costs. Some sort of playoff mechanism and maximum amount of time that you can play in the league before you either progress or are released.

4. Amateur leagues.

I've just been sick in my mouth.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: mexico red on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:42:19
i would stop watching football if that ever happened


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Phil_S on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:50:17
What would be the point
Its been said many a time before, but the future is an American style approach:

1. A top tier of a small group of massive clubs that pay a fortune to the players and play to a major audience on one day per weekend and one evening per week. No promotion nor relegation.

2. A farm league/division funded partially by the big boys. Teams play on the other weekend day and another evening in the week. This is basically reserve team football in all but name. The clubs are owned by the big boys and develop players.

3. A semi-pro regional league sponsored from above or populated by young kids. Split regionally to reduce costs. Some sort of playoff mechanism and maximum amount of time that you can play in the league before you either progress or are released.

4. Amateur leagues.

That would wreck the game totally. Next thing we'd have a "World Series" with  just ManUre, Chelski, Arse-nal & maybe Real Madrid.

The point is even these days a club can be relegated if they have a poor season, money or not. Newcastle are a good example. Clubs can also progress if given the financial clout. Man City are the latest erxample, but Reading & Portsmouth are others in the past. Why should a club permanently be in the top tier because they were once great. On that basis the top tier should consist of the first clubs that were formed & would include Notts County


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:55:20
I'm sorry but that sounds shit. Promotion and relegation is what football is all about. We dont need an American style play off system as we already have cups for that sort of thing
It does but I think he's right. Don't think NMH was advocating it, just that it's what's likely to happen. It might not be quite as bleak as NMH paints it though:

1) G14 pull up the drawbridge behind them with European Super League. Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal (and maybe Man City) bugger off to join it. They take with them the massive TV money and uber-paid players as per NMH.
2) Without massive TV deal to overinflate everything, English football settles back down to more sensible salaries/revenues
3) The huge differential between teams revenues and outlays in English football largely disappears - there'd still be some as there'd still be a top-flight TV deal better than the lower leagues, but it wouldn't be on the current billions vs millions discrepancy.
4) We all get back to watching competitive leagues where clubs and players have a chance of progressing on sporting rather than financial grounds and clubs aren't bankrupting themselves to try and keep up
5) The European Super League disappears up Rupert Murdoch's arse. No-one cares.

Sadly I think NMH is more likely to be right. Especially on the Euro-defectors leaving behind reserve sides to play in the rump Football League as training fodder for their Euro super sides. Benitez, Wenger and Mourinho have all suggested in one form or another that the "top clubs" should be allowed to do just that in the FL. And of course, the game's administrators in this country wouldn't have the balls to say No.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Nomoreheroes on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:02:21
It does but I think he's right. Don't think NMH was advocating it, just that it's what's likely to happen. It might not be quite as bleak as NMH paints it though:

1) G14 pull up the drawbridge behind them with European Super League. Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal (and maybe Man City) bugger off to join it. They take with them the massive TV money and uber-paid players as per NMH.
2) Without massive TV deal to overinflate everything, English football settles back down to more sensible salaries/revenues
3) The huge differential between teams revenues and outlays in English football largely disappears - there'd still be some as there'd still be a top-flight TV deal better than the lower leagues, but it wouldn't be on the current billions vs millions discrepancy.
4) We all get back to watching competitive leagues where clubs and players have a chance of progressing on sporting rather than financial grounds and clubs aren't bankrupting themselves to try and keep up
5) The European Super League disappears up Rupert Murdoch's arse. No-one cares.

Sadly I think NMH is more likely to be right. Especially on the Euro-defectors leaving behind reserve sides to play in the rump Football League as training fodder for their Euro super sides. Benitez, Wenger and Mourinho have all suggested in one form or another that the "top clubs" should be allowed to do just that in the FL. And of course, the game's administrators in this country wouldn't have the balls to say No.
Precisely. Not advocating it, but just think it will evolve to something like that.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:08:19
Using the Football League as a farm / feeder league to the Premier League might work. Each PL club gets assigned FL club in each division, with the top four getting two each (to match up the different league sizes). Then the PL clubs have to send out x number of players to the lower leagues, and they could share coaches and managers and that sort of thing.

I can't see the top clubs ever leaving their national leagues. I can see the Champions League becoming a midweek Euro League, to give the top clubs more big money games and a guaranteed income. Though I reckon there would still be some form of promotion and relegation, there has to be as its as fundamental to the game as the ball is.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:12:17
Using the Football League as a farm / feeder league to the Premier League might work. Each PL club gets assigned FL club in each division, with the top four getting two each (to match up the different league sizes). Then the PL clubs have to send out x number of players to the lower leagues, and they could share coaches and managers and that sort of thing.
Christ, you've managed the impossible - you've conjured up a fate worse than the bleak picture NMH was portraying


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:14:33
Christ, you've managed the impossible - you've conjured up a fate worse than the bleak picture NMH was portraying

There would still be promotion and relegation and Football League clubs would get better players and lower their wage bills.

Why is that worse?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:23:53
There would still be promotion and relegation and Football League clubs would get better players and lower their wage bills.

Why is that worse?

Because it would be a loss of our identity. We would caese to be and become Man U B or some such tripe.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:37:54
Because it would be a loss of our identity. We would caese to be and become Man U B or some such tripe.

How does half a dozen loan players and a coach or two amount to losing your identity?

It could save clubs like Swindon £500k a season, which seems worth it to me.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: nevillew on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 11:54:28


It could save clubs like Swindon £500k a season, which seems worth it to me.

So it's a well thought out, fully costed proposal then ?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: iffy on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 14:22:33
No thanks. To any of this.

The premiership sailing away in all its glorious irrelevance is fine and more power to them. The idea that my club is going to get twinned up with bloody Wigan or Fulham or Birmingham is utterly laughable. The idea that I should be grateful for it - for a saving worth 1500 season tickets - is contemptible.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 14:43:56
So what would you suggest to solve the problem of clubs like Swindon losing £2m a season.

Don't forget that the only thing keeping the club in existence at the moment is Fitton and his mates. If they decide to fuck off the club will be history within a year. Would you actually prefer that to having more loan players?

There are too many professional footballers and they're paid too much money. Clubs like Man Utd can put out a reserve team that would win the Championship, wouldn't it be better them playing for clubs like Swindon instead of playing in the reserves or sat on the bench and not playing at all?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: pauld on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 14:55:14
So what would you suggest to solve the problem of clubs like Swindon losing £2m a season.
Wage caps, starting at the top level; enforcing existing regulations on ownership/financial probity; prohibiting clubs from starting the season if they carry unsustainable debt. None of which is immediately implementible, but it needs change of that order of magnitude. And if the "big clubs" don't like it, let them fuck off to their European Super League fuelled by small country levels of debt, ridiculous TV deals and obscene wages and leave the rest of us to enjoy our game.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: jonny72 on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 16:29:55
Wage caps, starting at the top level; enforcing existing regulations on ownership/financial probity; prohibiting clubs from starting the season if they carry unsustainable debt. None of which is immediately implementible, but it needs change of that order of magnitude.

I agree with all of that. But I just think all the extra players at Premier League clubs that seldom play could be put to good use by lower division clubs and everyone would benefit. Sure there are a lot more loans happening now than ever but there is scope for it to be done even more.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: BANGKOK RED on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 16:43:46
Lets not stop there..........

We could even get those bontempi organ type things that they have in America to play little jingles for us to sing along to during the match. Fuck yeah.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Batch on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 17:09:19
We could even get those bontempi organ type things that they have in America to play little jingles for us to sing along to during the match. Fuck yeah.

You jest, but we already get songs after goals. Not that I tend to notice them much.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Langers on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 17:13:14
You jest, but we already get songs after goals. Not that I tend to notice them much.

The songs or the goals?


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 17:18:07
So anyway is it right that we lost between 2 and 3 million pounds last season?

How on earth did that happen?

Malpas and Christian Roberts weren't on that much were they?

Questions need to be answered.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: iffy on Thursday, October 22, 2009, 22:33:44
I agree with all of that. But I just think all the extra players at Premier League clubs that seldom play could be put to good use by lower division clubs and everyone would benefit. Sure there are a lot more loans happening now than ever but there is scope for it to be done even more.

But that model screws the small clubs even more. All the talent is hoovered up by the big clubs and there's no downside for the player, because they have an Arsenal contract AND first team football. The big clubs have all the talent they want under contract and poach all the kids. As a club outside the prem, you're say there with a begging bowl and told to be grateful. No thanks.

And it's sort of irrelevant to ask what would happen if our rich board get bored, because that's the case at Man City, Chelsea, Birmingham, Villa, all the way down.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: michael on Friday, October 30, 2009, 18:30:47
When are the accounts being published?

I still don't understand how we managed to lose 3 million quid last year.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Doore on Friday, October 30, 2009, 18:38:30
Probably got drunk, got cashback and accidentally threw it away.  I lost twenty quid this way, so I know how its done.


Title: Re: Rights Issue
Post by: Simon Pieman on Friday, October 30, 2009, 18:39:56
Probably becuase there was still stuff to pay off, I seem to remember Fitton stating that a few more skeletons had come out of the STFC closets.

Plus we had a big squad last season and I can't remember selling anyone during the accounting year.