Thetownend.com

Another year another conflict. This time the Russians are helping the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Flag_of_Georgia.svg/125px-Flag_of_Georgia.svg.png Vs http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Flag_of_South_Ossetia.svg/125px-Flag_of_South_Ossetia.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Russia.svg/125px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png

Not looking good for Georgia.

Beware of misinformation. The Georgians, particularly the warmongerer Saakashvili, are the cause of a potential disaster here. They attacked South Ossetia last night, shelling the hospital and killing peace-keepers and civilians in the capital Tskhinvali and flattening villages nearby. There was a multi-national peace keeping force in place for 15 years, made up of Georgian, Russian and South Ossetian troops. The Georgian element turned on their former colleagues and supported by tanks from the main Georgian armed forces have embarked on what amounts to ethnic cleansing. Any claims by Saakashvili on CNN or other news agencies that Russia has been bombing cities and villages in Georgia are lies.

I hope this situation does not escalate, but if the UN and other international agencies continue to demonstrate their collective impotency it will fall to Russia to take action to protect its citizens and others in South Ossetia.

When I wrote "not looking good for" it wasn't the taking of sides - I meant that the Russians were in and therefore that will probably be that for Georgia.

There will never be peace and tranquility within the old satelite states.

Only if Georgia continues its aggression. There are a lot of good people in Georgia and S'vili does not have the support of all the people by a long chalk. Russia does not want to flatten the former Soviet Republic but, contrary to popular opinion perhaps, is more interested in peace and stability in the region. I'm not an ex-Oxford :yuck: graduate turned to the red perspective, but since I've been up close and personal to them I've learnt that much of our western view of Russia and its intentions are misguided.

Sorry, Comrade Rich, if I seemed to jump down your throat there ... must have become a bit Russian myself! Maybe next time I visit UK we could have a meal in a nice sushi restaurant together?   

Deal!

My missus is a UK Communist Party pin wearing hippy! I have to stave off the revolution in my own home before I side with any former communist nations.

The history of the former Soviet Union is very interesting.

Best bring your geiger counter though. Or don't try the polonium maki-mono roll.

What am I? Stupid :D

 :eat: :puke:  :blowup:

Nicely done. I'm sure that's pretty much what happened!

He committed sushicide ... it says here.

 The Caucasus region is very difficult to get the head round....Dimbleby J recently did a series on the new Russia and went there....he gave some insight into the age old conflicts, based on religion and ethnicity.  Which are often brought about by the mountainous geography of the region.  I would claim next to no knowledge of the area.

Makes you a good candidate for next Russian president Reg ... pity about the citizenship though.

I'll go with the FOX Network/bSkyb school of thought.

[url width=466 height=300]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44903000/jpg/_44903294_-168.jpg[/url]

Look at South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity, he's evil.

 Do you think I should putin for it?

I better you're happy with that little chestnut Reg.

 :french:

Shocking Reg.....the russians eh,first ones to whinge when us brits and the yanks invade other countrys for the right or wrong reasons(wrong in my opinion) but its fine when they trangress,its about time the millions of people who hate war and brutality let the minority know its not on anymore,its always woman,children who take the brunt of war when a few fukin knobs rage war....after all when was the last time a politician died in the line of duty.

 ;D

Leave it to me ... I'll have a word with Vlad and his boy Dima

Department of Useless Information Newsflash - Here in Kazan the city's team are sitting at the top of the Russian Premier League. They are called Rubin! Makes STFC seem a little closer. Been a few times and always get a strange look when I start shouting "Coome ooon youuuuu reeeeds!" ... probably because they play in green.  

 :nerner: not biting!

                    Then raise the scarlet standard high,
                    Within its shade we'll live and die,
                    Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
                    We'll keep the red flag flying here.

How cliche ;)

who is your new avatar?

Probably the most asked question of the day :)

Jenna Fischer from Blades of Glory, but more importantly the American version of The Office. She's by no means perfect but to quote Alan Partridge, "Ah [Jenna], lovely [Jenna], she's my favourite"

[url width=450 height=356]http://www.aolcdn.com/aolpolltool/jenna-fischer-sexy-time[/url]

she's very purty indeed. i quite liked the american office...

WRRA can I just ask are you in Russia?  You tell us not to listen to what we are being told but are you not doing the same in Russia?  South Ossetia is part of Georgia isn't it, so Georgia obviously doesn't really want some military leader deciding that S.O. will soon become independent from Georgia.

Quite why the ruskies have come in heavy handed to "liberate" SO, and quite blatently on SO's side, I'm not sure.

(I am being devil's advocate here fella - just trying to understand what's going on really).

Me and the missus are following this with interest as we were there not long ago. I had to laugh when the russians said the only way it would stop was if the georgians withdrew their troops. Erm, last I checked, South Ossetia was in Georgia, not Russia!

You should take into account that the borders of the current regions nations are from Lenin's time.

They do not reflect the pre-Russian Revolution(s) borders which were largely laid along ethnic lines.  Hence the two provinces of Georgia, populated by mainly ethnic Russians.

Interesting fact. When the USSR broke up, Russia lost 18% of its population because of Lenin's borders compared the pre-revolution.

I'm certainly not an expert on the area, but it does seem as if all sides are to blame in part.  It looks as if this is a part of a much wider power struggle between Russia, which is trying to maximise its influence in the area, and the US together with a number of states bordering Russia (Georgia, Azerbaijan etc.) which are trying to minimise it.  He started it, no she did...we'll never really know.  It doesn't really matter...it was going to flare up anyway some time soon.

wheretherealredsare's - promise I'm not having a pop, but your earlier posts sound very biased towards Russia.  I simply don't accept that a complex dispute like this can be as black & white as your posts suggest.

None of this is black and white, and the idea that either of the major players in this conflict is playing to role of peace-keeper with no longer term strategic objectives is incredibly naive. The basics are these,

In the break up of the Soviet Union Georgia asserted it's independence on the basis of its established borders under soviet rule. This included two areas, South Ossetia and Abkhazia which were predominately ethnic Russian.

Back in the early 90's there was a minor civil war as these areas themselves attempted to establish independence from Georgia, a movement which the Georgian state moved to suppress. Things settled into some sort of balance when a multinational peacekeeping force, including Russians and Georgians was estblished to maintain order in these two areas which were given some autonomy, but remained formally a part of Georgia. Since there's been a simmering war between SO separatists and Georgia, with tacit, and some concrete Russian support being given to the separatists. Russia has in the intervening period been issuing Russian passports to a significant proportion of the ethnic Russians in the region, meaning that there are now thousands of Russian citizens in both enclaves.

On Friday, the day after agreeing a caesefire and to take part in peace talks the Georgians, thinking the attention of the world is on China and the Olympics tool up and steam into SO in an attempt to round up the separatist leadership (the sort of thing that Israel does in the West Bank and Gaza about every other month, steam in blow a lot of shit up, kill a few rebels, capture a few generals).

For some reason the Georgian leadership MASSIVELY underestimated the reaction this might provoke in Russia. Within a couple of days Russian ships, aircraft, troops and armour had flooded the area, taken control of the SO region and were attacking Georgian military bases in the border area.

This is the point at which Saakashvili declared a ceasefire and started whining about Russian aggression. In metaphoric terms it looks like a bullying 12 year old has just given a little 8 year old kid a good slap and is now crying because the kids 15 year old brother has come along and knocked the crap out of him.

However, what we all need to consider is to what extent the 15 year old has been encouraging his little brother to piss off the 12 year old in order to provoke just such a conflict.

None of the characters in this little drama are exactly attractive. All of them are looking to their own strategic and economic interests. None of them really give a shit about the local population.

After days of trying to understand it, Lumps has cleared it all up in that post. Cheers!

that sums it up for me. thanks lumps.

Georgia form what I have read started it. Not the best idea Georgia has eg 100 tanks russia 8000 hmmmmmm not the best idea to pick a fight with them! Stuiped twats for starting it all over some worthless shit bit of land populated by russian anyway.

According to Sky News (not the most reliable of sources, I know), Russian troops are on their way into Triblisi.

Well done to Georgia for awakening the orrible beast that is Russia. We are all fucked now.

We need Bush Jr more now than ever before, and he's on his way out. What are the odds!

Please tell me you're joking.

interesting post from a conspiracy theorist on another board....

Been away for a while so catching up ...


Yes I live in Kazan about 750kms east of Moscow. I said beware of misinformation Jan, not don't listen. As for myself I have the benefit of seeing and hearing both sides of the coverage either directly through the media here or online for the west perspective. Being closer to the action, and having contacts in the affected area, I can assure you that the media coverage is heavily biased in favour of the Russian version or the western/Georgian version as the case may be. Ignoring the obvious propaganda effect, the Georgian story is full of inaccuracies and untruths.

Lumps post above should answer your other points.


Not taken as a pop because I fully accept on this issue I am in the Russian camp. Whilst it is indeed a complex dispute the cause of so many deaths and so much destruction in this current outbreak of hostilities is down to the Georgian leadership. I believe that many things will come out into the open, hopefully sooner rather than later, that will show the Georgians for what they really are.

Well explained RED...the georgians knew they were in trouble when they went ware they wasnt invited,fair enough,but surely strikes on military positions,TV stations or even government buildings would have shown Russian intent,but again its the innocent population ie woman and children that bare the brunt,surely if they can put a man on the moon 30 years ago they can bring a relatively small nation like Georgia to book without acting like soldiers from Attilla the Huns regime....not that the Russians care but it dosnt look good over here Red.

Firstly leefer, it's not that the Georgians went uninvited since they were already there as part of the multi-national peace keeping force in an area that, although wanting independence, is officially part of Georgia. However they decided to forget about peace keeping and attacked and destroyed most of Tskhinvali only hours after agreeing to an end to aggression and further talks to try and resolve the dispute. Secondly, following the Georgian killings of Russian troops in the peace keeping force and the innocent population in Tskhinvali, the Russians entered South Ossetia to stop the Georgian attack and drive them out of South Ossetia. Military positions outside South Ossetia which were being used in the offensive against Tskhinvali were attacked by Russia. Thirdly, the Georgian troops were the ones acting like soldiers from Attilla the Hun's regime committing atrocities against civilians in their initial attack.

I don't suppose it is meant to look good over there ... I wonder why that is?

Thats fair enough drive them out of South Ossetia,no probs with that,but driving into Georgia attacking randomly and basicly terrorising innocent people dosnt look good because we can see it Red....its not made up,woman and children shot bleeding,no homes left,hospitals bombed,it dosnt look good because its ugly and the same old boring drivel is comingout of BOTH sides mouths...its there fault they started it!....and while the generals play silly playground games we all know who suffers.Basicly Red Russia is a continent and and if they cant resove a problem like this without resorting to this kind of thuggery god help us.

So. it's presented to you over there as Russia driving into Georgia attacking randomly etc ...and you can see women and children shot ... no homes ... hospitals bombed. Of course it doesn't look good, especially when you find out that those scenes are from the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali. CNN got duped first and it appears to have spread. As I said before I believe that many things will come out into the open, hopefully sooner rather than later, that will show the Georgians for what they really are.

Whilst I appreciate you can see both sides I think you are being very small minded, you are painting it in exactly the way the Russians are portraying it over there that they rode in on a horse and saved there countrymen and peacekeepers.  Sorry I don't buy that, attrocities have been commited on both sides here, Georgia were foolish for starting something that was never going to get a succesful outcome for them but the way the Russians have acted 'the punnishment has not fitted the crime'.  Refugees from both sides are sharing stories with the media of rapes, murders and tortured by Russian, Georgian and Ossetian Troops.  There is no black and white, both sides in the wrong for sure, time for the Russians to leave Georgia, give the breakaway regions a referendum on whether they want to seperate and then at least for the time being a fragile peace will be restored.

haha

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Aq.L.SW9Tx779NCiQ1ZFM3IjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20080815084448AA0uMXU

i watched 2 stealth bombers taking off from fairford yesterday at about 3ish, i started getting very worried, thinking it was all kicking off.

Strikes me that the Russians are using the same excuse as Saddam Hussein used when he "liberated" Kuwait.

Rather than the ones the US and UK used when they "liberated" Afghanistan and Iraq presumably?

So then, the Russians are recognising the independence South Ossetia & Abkhazia. Not a suprising move to be honest.

Cue world condemnation and the political chess game to continue.... It's all gone awfully Cold War hasn't it.

weerrrrrrrr doooooooooooommmmmmmeeedddddd!!!

And politicians in 'the West', who had absolutely no qualms about recognising the independence of Kosovo when it was in their own interests, line up to accuse Russia of acting dangerously. Hypocrits. Is there a politician in a position of power left anywhere who retains even an ounce of credibility?

NO. There hasn't been one one the last decade or more.

You say that like there were some once but they've all disappeared. Who did you have in mind 'cause it was obviously before my time.

Fair point, especially where this country is concerned. Bevan?

Tony Blair fact

I see what you've done there.

Blair is a legend

I take it Russia will now give Chechnya independence to ensure consistency.