The Rev. Pat Robertson

[leefer]

I hate Science...beardy blokes spouting bollox usually.

[Talk Talk]

I don't need to be told by some almighty being that fucking my neighbour's wife is wrong.

I have seen your neighbour's wife. I would.

[Simon Pieman]

Religion is for people who cannot use their own mind or form their own opinion.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Here's the thing though, you can chose which religion or faith to believe in or not. So what if it has rules or moral values that the person will follow? That doesn't make them unable to make up their own mind any less than someone who chooses to obey the law.

[Talk Talk]

Here's the thing though, you can chose which religion or faith to believe in or not. So what if it has rules or moral values that the person will follow? That doesn't make them unable to make up their own mind any less than someone who chooses to obey the law.

Well I think it does. If the christian faith in the middle ages said that you must kill all of the arab non-believers or if Sharia faith says that you must stone women who have been raped then that is what you do. It doesn't involve thought. It is all down to conditioning.

Faith is a dogma that can be at odds with the law. Law is black and white. And in this country the common law is there (or used to be there) to protect the majority of people who wanted to co-exist peacefully. You can't decide that you don't like the law without ending up in prison. Meh. So let us have Sharia "law" then? No, that's not law, that is an extension of faith that bashes down the barriers of common law and non-agression.

There is a huge gulf between faith and law.

[Bogus Dave]

If jesus is so good why is he dead?

Hmmmm???

[Arriba]

meant to be coming back aint he?
i wont be holding my breath

[Simon Pieman]

I know of Muslim people who have had alcohol before even though they're not supposed to. My mate on the other hand has neevr touched a drop. That's an associated lifestyle rule he follows due to his religion. Nobody tells him to go stoning people to death. Religion doesn't have to be about that.

Religion and faith is often a way of life but ultimately the decisions rest with the person. They can chose not to follow the ideals if they want to, unlike an enforced legal system and set of laws.

[Talk Talk]

They can chose not to follow the ideals if they want to, unlike an enforced legal system and set of laws.

Then it is just a preference, not a moral or ethical absolute.

I can prefer oranges to apples, or doughnuts to muffins, or blue to green. That's personal choice and not ethics.

Which just goes to show how loose and rubbish religion is. Pick the bits that suit you the best. Ignore the rest.

Again, laws (or common morals) are not like that. Thankfully.

[Simon Pieman]

Not really, if they were true devout Muslim they wouldn't drink. But people make mistakes. If they want to practice their Islamic faith they can refrain from drinking, if not then they have the choice.

What I would say is that Muslim families take it all very seriously. If in my example the parent found out the offspring would get a serious bollocking.

Quite clearly religion has and will be used for other darker purposes to control people, but it's not always about that. These nutters get the press attention because it's not exciting to write about the church going lady from next door who knitted a cardigan. I'd go as far to say that society ios indoctrinated by the media more than religion. Far more.

[pauld]

I want rational solutions to the problems of the evil and corrupt of the world hurting the moderate and human.

Good luck with that one. If you're holding out for it, you might be better switching sides and hanging on for the second coming instead, it's probably more likely

[Talk Talk]

I'd go as far to say that society is indoctrinated by the media more than religion. Far more.

Our society is. Like most western 'democracies' (read corporatist state controlled). But others around the world listen to the Rabbis or the Mullahs or the Christian right wing or the Pope more than the media.

Indoctrination is rife, the medium or belief is irrelevant.

Think for yourself using reason, intelligence and judgment. Stick with basic non-agression principles and you see what a load of old tosh the ranting wankers spout.

[Talk Talk]

Good luck with that one. If you're holding out for it, you might be better switching sides and hanging on for the second coming instead, it's probably more likely

I'm not holding out for it in my lifetime. It won't happen. But I think that it will in future generations, because humanity will come to realise that war and death and violence is not inevitable and can be countered by rational thought, morals ethics and ideals.

And I will happily bang on about it until I pop off to anybody that has an open mind.

[Ardiles]

Quite clearly religion has and will be used for other darker purposes to control people, but it's not always about that. These nutters get the press attention because it's not exciting to write about the church going lady from next door who knitted a cardigan. I'd go as far to say that society ios indoctrinated by the media more than religion. Far more.

Bang on.

[Highland Robin]

And I will happily bang on about it until I pop off to anybody that has an open mind.

Hear, hear!  That was the point of my last post - at the end of the day, open minds, on all sides, are what matter.  And there are far too many closed minds in religious communities, as there are among atheists.  Richard Dawkins has about as open a mind as the worst religious fanatic, but as Sie Pie said, the media love to pitch extremists against each other and then pretend that they represent 'normality'.

And....most belief systems are not primarily about imposing sets of moral values on anyone.  I know that is how it appears, both historically and in the present, but actually, the key issue (in Christianity) is the question of what God is like, and given the nature of God, how we appropriately respond.  And the spin-off from that (on-going) debate is that we therefore should behave in particular ways with those around us.  If you look at the stories of Jesus in the Bible, you will find that his fiercest words are aimed at the religious establishment for their corruption, hypocrisy, and lack of concern for justice for people, which is, he argues, completely contrary to the nature of God.  There is little if anything which challenges non-believers, though there is always invitation to all people - revolutionary in that society, because the Jewish religion of the time was completely exclusivist, and therefore also contrary to the nature of God.


So open-mindedness lies at the heart of good religion.  Sadly, as someone pointed out earlier in this discussion, its people who bugger it all up.

[BANGKOK RED]

And....most belief systems are not primarily about imposing sets of moral values on anyone. 

So what would the ten commandments be about then?