Nick Griffin

[sonicyouth]

Is capital punishment a ridiculous notion? Those 3 men who kidnapped, stripped, beat and raped a 3 year old girl last month weren't mentally ill, drugged up or anything, they were just scum. In my opinion capital punishment is the only logical deterrent.

that's the problem though, who decides whether someone lives or dies? some jumped up cunt in a suit? some gay ponce with a wig who fucks rentboys?

i don't disagree that those people are scum but there are innocent people who will be killed. people who could or have been successfully rehabilitated who will be killed. it's just not right.

[DMR]

Dave, a word.

It's not a good idea to throw about the word ignorant with such gay abandon, and then commit such an obvious politico-historical howler?

OK. Clever boy you know that Nazi is a contraction of National Socialist. Glad the GCSE history class wasn't a complete waste of time and money.

Does that make them socialists? Well. Did they support a policy of democratic, ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange? (That's the factories, shops and banks).

That's a rhetorical question. (The answers NO by the way.)

The name's probably best explained as a bit of political spin. A branding that was required if a populist party was going to have any sort of mass appeal in 1930's Germany, where the Socialist Party and Communist Party membership ran into the millions.

It's true there was a proportion of the brown shirts that proposed to carry through a social revolution after the regime had siezed power, but that was never the stated positiion of the leadership and they were all "purged" during the night of the long knives.



Sorry if that sounded a bit patronising but the ignorant remark got my back up.

For you to use it, and then seek to defend the BNP as having nothing to do with fascism, Nazism is more than ironic, it's laughable.

Griffin's a Neo-nazi, his party is a fascist party. They might be trying to dress up their image as a respectable bunch pf politicians, but Griffin was deputy to Tyndale and was at all the rallies with the Swastikas and jackboots and the whole bit. And the skinheads who used to spit at old Asian women on their "papersale" on Brick Lane, (before they were run of it) are still in the party and cavorting around outside court on the telly this week, like the big tough men they wish they were.

They've not even expelled the "The Mad Bomber" who's name escapes me but has done two jail terms for firebombing mosques and family homes.

Dave for fuck sake mate they're not just racist scum, they're fascist scum. Shootings to fucking good for them.

Fair enough mate but the Nazi/socialist stuff is not really what I'm debating, good points though. I never levelled that ignorant remark at you on a personal level, I assure you that.

Look, I'm not trying to defend acts of racial hatred as you mention, but you're implying that it is solely the BNPs problem... which is misguided. Facism and racism do not stem from the BNP, the BNP stems from facism (which is unacceptable), but also nationalism (which I believe in).

[Simon Pieman]

I just like to argue with people  

[Towniegaz]

Is capital punishment a ridiculous notion?

Ask Timothy Evans or Derek Bentley.

[DMR]

Is capital punishment a ridiculous notion? Those 3 men who kidnapped, stripped, beat and raped a 3 year old girl last month weren't mentally ill, drugged up or anything, they were just scum. In my opinion capital punishment is the only logical deterrent.

that's the problem though, who decides whether someone lives or dies? some jumped up cunt in a suit? some gay ponce with a wig who fucks rentboys?

i don't disagree that those people are scum but there are innocent people who will be killed. people who could or have been successfully rehabilitated who will be killed. it's just not right.

No but there has to be some form of ultimate punishment for those who are clearly always a menace. In today's climate child rapists and murderers can walk the street in 12 years after a conviction. I'm sorry but at the very least life must mean life in prison.

[sonicyouth]

again, the bnp does not have any interest in nationalism - they have simply hijacked the notion for their own political benefit. the majority of their policies are utterly ridiculous bollocks which is designed to make people yearn for the 'good old days', proposing to reinstate outdated and illogical ideas.

No but there has to be some form of ultimate punishment for those who are clearly always a menace. In today's climate child rapists and murderers can walk the street in 12 years after a conviction. I'm sorry but at the very least life must mean life in prison.

lifetime solitary confinement. lock them up and throw away the key. life means life, not a life sentence which lasts 20-30 years.

an eye for an eye is not a solution.

[Simon Pieman]

Is capital punishment a ridiculous notion? Those 3 men who kidnapped, stripped, beat and raped a 3 year old girl last month weren't mentally ill, drugged up or anything, they were just scum. In my opinion capital punishment is the only logical deterrent.

that's the problem though, who decides whether someone lives or dies? some jumped up cunt in a suit? some gay ponce with a wig who fucks rentboys?

i don't disagree that those people are scum but there are innocent people who will be killed. people who could or have been successfully rehabilitated who will be killed. it's just not right.

No but there has to be some form of ultimate punishment for those who are clearly always a menace. In today's climate child rapists and murderers can walk the street in 12 years after a conviction. I'm sorry but at the very least life must mean life in prison.

For once tonight, I do agree!

[Amir]

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment.
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.
 
Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.

Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods

Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.
In spite of this imposing list, when pressed by the BBC Panorama team in September 2001 on the convictions of its leading members, party leader Nick Griffin just lied. He claimed Tony Lecomber, his deputy merely had a conviction for handling fireworks. He also claimed that party chief steward Warren Bennett had a minor conviction “some 15 years ago” but had not been in trouble since. The truth is that Bennett has been named in the Scottish press for violence as recently as 2002. Griffin also tried to claim that Colin Smith had no convictions.



Now even if a leopard can change it's spots, can that many?  These are thugs and racists, and they're the ones in charge, nevermind your rank and file idiot.


The name Nazi comes from the german National Socialist Party.  A National Socialist is however very different from a Socialist in many ways, yet similar in some.  The old way we looked at politics was a circle, and if you get far enough round you pretty much meet i.e. Communism/Fascism.

[DMR]

Of course they are, I'm not disputing that. But in our essentially 2 party system both Labour and the Cons are quite centralised. Frankly Blair is more of a Christian Democrat than he is true Labour. There is very little political outlet for right wing supporters... thats not to say a facist loony... thats to say a right wing sympathiser... and is that democratic?

[DMR]

Amir... about half of those crimes you listed are not racially motivated so it's not really the point is it?

[Simon Pieman]

Amir... about half of those crimes you listed are not racially motivated so it's not really the point is it?

They are thugs and racists. Great people to run the country I think you'd agree  :|

[DMR]

Christ let's clarify shall we

1. I don't think the BNP are fit to run GB
2. I wouldn't vote BNP
3. I fully accept that the party has it's fair share of nutters
4. They are fundamentally facist

HOWEVER

1. the bnp stand for certain nationalist principles which i support
2. they are overstated in terms of their 'evilness'
3. griffin as a leader of a recognised party has the right to say what he wants in a priate speech

[sonicyouth]

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) inciting racial hatred ... obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material ... crude racism.

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer) attack on a Jewish schoolteacher

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP) incitement to racial hatred.

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser) Combat 18 activity.

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser) hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser) racially abusing people.

Darren Dobson racially aggravated assault ... links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

Darren Hoy racially abusing people

not racially motivated dave?

[McLovin]

who ever proved facism is bad? racism, yes, but facism is no worse than communism, if you ask me.

[lumpimynci]

Lecomber- That's the mad bomber! Thanks Amir, that had annoyed me all night.

DMR - thanks for making your position clear. You had me worried earlier.

The whole fascism/communism thing? Well if by communism you mean the undemocratic totalitarian regimes of eastern Europe and the Chinese block then sure they look pretty similar. Certainly in terms of the structure and operation of the state apparatus they're like peas in a pod. But all totalitarian regimes do, whether Stalinist, Maoist, Fascist or your common or garden military police dictatorship, like Chile/Argentina/Turkey and Irag until quite recently. Even the Theocratic regimes like Iran use the same kinds of institutions, a tightly controlled media, politically motivated court and penal system, secret police services, torture, abduction and assasination of opposition leaders, you know the kind of thing.

Fascism and Communism (and now I guess some of the Islamist regimes?)are different in that they start on the basis of a mass political movement.

The diffence for me between the two is I guess their intentions / motivations. Fascism is very much a movement based on a charismatic leader/figurehead. It's always about installing that person into absolute power. (Looked on that way the BNP look less of threat, Griffin being about as charismatic as Lifetime Red - the original on TISTFC, not Yeovil's homage). But anyway its intent is always undemocratic, a dictatorship.

The communist revolution in Russia at least started out with democratic intent. Its system of government was to be a participative democracy, based on committees of workers, soldiers, sailors (soviets that's where the word comes from) in every workplace, town etc. Doomed to failure of course in a country as backward as Russia, 90% illiterate, fucking emormous and with no decent transport or communications

The other fundamental difference is economic. The fascists left the ownership of the factories, banks etc in the hands of the same ruling class that owned them before. (Even supplied some, like Philips, with a slave labour force from the concentration camps.)

This is of course exactly the reason that fascism was encouraged by these people in the first place. The communists were growing in strength and the good capitalists of Spain, Germany and Italy needed a populist movement that they could control as a bulwark against them. (Ultimately of course they lost control of them and all the horrors we all know about only too well happened.)

Anyway none of us is a fascist or a mad stalinist so fuck it lets leave it.

Your support of nationalism, and some of the other comments in this thread about "looking after our own first" is a whole other debate. And one I have to admit I've never really got my head around.

Putting aside the whole xenophobia thing, which I can understand. (Frankly even as someone who is oppossed to racism I find I'm more comfortable with those that speak my language, share my cultural background and values. Nowadays those people aren't necessarily white, but they tend to have been brought up here or elsewhere in Europe.)

What I don't get is why I should be expected to care more about the plight of one set of people that I don't know and will probably never meet, than some other set of people that I don't know and will never meet, based simply on the fact that the first set were born on one side of some entirely notional line drawn on a map, an the second set on the other.

The idea that I should owe more loyalty to some workshy dole scrounger from Newbury, or some over-privileged tosser like Charles Windsor than I do to some hardworking plumber from Poland or Belaruse who's over here paying his taxes and fixing my sink, just because we were born a bit nearer to each other makes no fucking sense to me at all.

Put it like this. I know the whole idea of nationhood is an invention. We've allowed ourselves to be divided up into these tribes based on lines on a map, colours on a bit of cloth and, if your lucky (i.e. not English), a stirring song. That's all very well for the purposes of sporting competition, adds a bit of spice,(I'll be bellowing for Wales as loudly as anyone else come Saturday afternoon) but it's not a sensible philosophy for the rest of life.

To say we're British, and hence not like you in Europe is ridiculous when our population and language, even without 20th century immigration, is a mix of:

German - from the Angle and Saxon tribesman who settled here
Latin - from the Romans
Norse - from the Vikings - particularly in N/E dialects and place names
French - from the Norman conquests
Gaelic - from Ireland - the Scots being originally an Irish tribe that invaded and settled northern Britain and got the place named after them - must have really pissed off the Picts - speaking of which,
Picts/Welsh/Cornish - the original "native" Britons with very similar language, now surviving only in Wales and some traces in northern Scottish dialects.

Add to that the fact ALL OF US can trace our ancestory back to one fairly small tribe of Africans about 60,000 years ago. (And when I say all of us, I mean the entire population of the world outside Africa and the African diaspora of the 17th century and on). The  DNA markers are there clear as day in all of us. (There's more genetic diversity, in terms of DNA, in any small African village, where half the place are related to each other, and they all look quite similar, than in the whole of the non-african population of the world with all their physical differences. Weird!)

Fuck! I've gone into one haven't I?

Sorry, everybody, got carried away.

I'll get me coat.