The Spirit of '69 and our Day of Action

[STFC_Manc]

I don't understand the narative from the Trust and SO69 group around the losses that the club are making.  At c£1.5m I doubt this is out of line with the average loss in league 2, the problem always comes where the owner can no longer afford to fund a loss of that amount.

Whether Clem converts the loans to equity or takes a loss on a sale, I can't really see any difference between the two scenario's.  

If you look at Wrexham's last set of accounts to March 23, they made a loss of over £5m, with interest of over £400k payable on the loans.  If Clem was charging interest then I could understand the drive to convert to equity but he isn't.  Are Wrexham a badly run club? From a financial view it looks like it until you consider the increase in value from taking the club from the NL to L1 and maybe beyond.

[DV]

I don't understand the narative from the Trust and SO69 group around the losses that the club are making.  At c£1.5m I doubt this is out of line with the average loss in league 2, the problem always comes where the owner can no longer afford to fund a loss of that amount.

Whether Clem converts the loans to equity or takes a loss on a sale, I can't really see any difference between the two scenario's. 

If you look at Wrexham's last set of accounts to March 23, they made a loss of over £5m, with interest of over £400k payable on the loans.  If Clem was charging interest then I could understand the drive to convert to equity but he isn't.  Are Wrexham a badly run club? From a financial view it looks like it until you consider the increase in value from taking the club from the NL to L1 and maybe beyond.

I can’t speak on behalf of any other football clubs but as far as I can tell (and I’m not an expert of these things) one of our biggest losses is ‘admin expenses’

….is that the same for other clubs who operate at a loss?
Do their accounts show where the loss is? For other clubs would it be the fact they are trying to put together a competitive wage budget on small crowds, over extending themselves to get better players in - something we are clearly not doing?

I imagine other clubs would appear to be running up debt by spending beyond their means on their football club / team.

We seem to have cut as many corners as possible, done everything on the cheap just to make even bigger losses.

Using your example. Yes, Wrexham have built up debt but you can at least see what they’ve got for their money - then there is the whole debate about ‘running up debt’ vs ‘investment’

That 5m Wrexham have spent might yield them 15m over the next 5 years…

[Kinky Tom]

Cannot wait to see the spelling on this.

Who is it? Assuming someone like Wyeman? Will it also include his favourite midget porn websites?

This is why you should never be anywhere near anyone who still backs Clem in a capacity to turn them, you're a bully who only wants to fight and put them down, to you it is only ever "them and us" and I think you're more of a danger to the movement with your fight first instinct than most on the other side to be honest.

[Batch]

I don't understand the narative from the Trust and SO69 group around the losses that the club are making.  At c£1.5m I doubt this is out of line with the average loss in league 2, the problem always comes where the owner can no longer afford to fund a loss of that amount..

If don't understand how we've cut to the bone are losing more a season than under Power. At least, based on the external debt inherited (AB accounts)/years power was in charge.

The only good slightly better position is it's been converted into internal debt.

I don't think using Wrexham as the yardstick for anything financial is helpful given they have invested in the team (3rd in league 1) and the facilities.

True they are getting charged for it. But they are being built up. Improved. Adding to their value.

Are you really comparing their setup with ours? Remarkable.

We have someone who surely can not afford to keep up covering losses from legitimate earnings, who has butchered the internals of the club (Ollie aside) and is in the process of making the club unsalable through debt that is at best party opaque in nature.

What direction do you see the club headed at the moment? Where's the foundations for improvement? 3 1/2 years and nothing.

[STFC_Manc]

I can’t speak on behalf of any other football clubs but as far as I can tell (and I’m not an expert of these things) one of our biggest losses is ‘admin expenses’

….is that the same for other clubs who operate at a loss?
Do their accounts show where the loss is? For other clubs would it be the fact they are trying to put together a competitive wage budget on small crowds, over extending themselves to get better players in - something we are clearly not doing?

I imagine other clubs would appear to be running up debt by spending beyond their means on their football club / team.

We seem to have cut as many corners as possible, done everything on the cheap just to make even bigger losses.

Using your example. Yes, Wrexham have built up debt but you can at least see what they’ve got for their money - then there is the whole debate about ‘running up debt’ vs ‘investment’

That 5m Wrexham have spent might yield them 15m over the next 5 years…

The average loss at league 2 is around £1.5m (https://www.deloitte.com/uk/en/services/financial-advisory/research/annual-review-of-football-finance-football-league-clubs.html).

All league 2 clubs are limited by the % of money they can spend on wages, so yes all league 2 clubs will have a big admin expenses, this won't be unqiue (quite a few league 2 clubs don't even produce accounts that show admin expenses).

I was using Wrexham as an example of a club who have even bigger losses but are a well run club, at no point was I trying to compare situations and yes I've said the return will be increased value.  I'm sure they sold a stake in Wrexham for a good price recently.

[TheSpiritof69]

I will answer the debt thing in more detail later.

For now, just dropping in to promote the latest attempt to become famous; we're on the Price Of Football pod this morning. Extended interview.

[STFC_Manc]

If don't understand how we've cut to the bone are losing more a season than under Power. At least, based on the external debt inherited (AB accounts)/years power was in charge.

The only good slightly better position is it's been converted into internal debt.

I don't think using Wrexham as the yardstick for anything financial is helpful given they have invested in the team (3rd in league 1) and the facilities.

True they are getting charged for it. But they are being built up. Improved. Adding to their value.

Are you really comparing their setup with ours? Remarkable.

We have someone who surely can not afford to keep up covering losses from legitimate earnings, who has butchered the internals of the club (Ollie aside) and is in the process of making the club unsalable through debt that is at best party opaque in nature.

What direction do you see the club headed at the moment? Where's the foundations for improvement? 3 1/2 years and nothing.

I've just looked at the last 3 years of powers losses, £1.3-£1.8m so infact we are losing less than under powier?  

At no point was I comparing set ups, I was using them as an example of a well run club, who losses money.

Why does having debt above the value of the club mean its unsaleable.  My point was that if Clem decided to convert it to equity, what is the difference between taking a loss now, with at the point of a sale.

[Batch]

I've just looked at the last 3 years of powers losses, £1.3-£1.8m so infact we are losing less than under power?  

Power took over in 2013. 8 years at the helm. According to this, external debt was 4.5M in 2021. If your figures are correct Power should be applauded for achieving break even in the first 5 years.

https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets-v2.gc.swindontownfcservices.co.uk/a16dccf0-4296-11ef-b397-8b48f5f9bbb5.pdf

Yes there was the debenture on top. You can't include that in operational loss. That was a known cost - or should have been.

Why does having debt above the value of the club mean its unsaleable.  

Would you buy a club for 10M if it was worth 5? Maybe someone will, but its pretty unlikely.

I don't have a single problem with the principle Clem getting his money back + a bit on top - up to a point. But the debt is continuing to rise rapidly and that's fast becoming unrealistic.

My point was that if Clem decided to convert it to equity

He may change his mind, but he's previously ruled that at (fans forum)/

[Bob's Orange]

Clearly a comparison with Wrexham is chalk and cheese. The only similarity with them is that both have foreign ownership. They've absolutely used their American owners to their advantage and have a raft of large company sponsorship, a very well known TV show and huge global presence (I'd imagine the money from the US is vast)

What do we have? An Australian supporters club that consists of a strange Clem fanboy making strange predictions on Twitter and the frankly pointless Karachi project.

Clem had a really good chance to use Australia to our advantage, but as with everything he's done, lack of any proper plans in place have been his downfalll.

I do agree that all clubs seem to operate at losses and I'm sure other clubs have Admin expenses, but I want ours explains, why not break down the 3.5 million quid bucket? James 'Frank' Spencer and his Fair Game crew certainly won't.

[STFC_Manc]

Would you buy a club for 10M if it was worth 5? Maybe someone will, but its pretty unlikely.

The point of my first post was I don't understand the debt issue, the Trust are calling for him to convert to equity, as increased debt will make the club unsaleable.  

This isn't the case, as the club is only worth what some one will pay.  You see it all the time that owners, when they sell have to write off a huge amount of money, it's not different in this case.  

[STFC_Manc]

I do agree that all clubs seem to operate at losses and I'm sure other clubs have Admin expenses, but I want ours explains, why not break down the 3.5 million quid bucket? James 'Frank' Spencer and his Fair Game crew certainly won't.

Do you know what caused the increase to £3.5m from £2.3m?

[Bob's Orange]

Do you know what caused the increase to £3.5m from £2.3m?

Tell me.

[DV]

I can’t tell you but if I was throwing out wild theories I’d say the increase was the ownership taking extra club money out under the guise of admin expenses to then put back into the club as director loans thus magically turning the clubs money into their own money whilst also playing the funding the club hero…

[Batch]

The Eady money and the way it was accounted for when transferred through the club to JV.

Good to see the confirmation statement is now showing on companies house, it'll be interesting to see what the accounts show (due 28th, so March/April by the time we see them).

[No Longer Posh Red]

Do you know what caused the increase to £3.5m from £2.3m?

Maybe it was paid to the Aussie plumber to cover the director’s loan for the next season.

The problem is our open & transparent ownership won’t confirm one way or another so we can only assume it’s because it’s not something easily explained