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RedRag

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« Reply #255 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:17:30 »

All this talk of planning, where does one begin....

I would be flabbergasted if they don't already have a pretty good idea of what they want to do having been advised as to what works and what doesn't, from experience 9 times out of 10 public consultation is more often than not to rubber stamp for support for what is aspired to rather than to remotely steer the development of proposals.

Yes they could have applied for planning permission previously, but a) that would have been a pain in the arse procedurally as the Council would have had a financial interest as land owner which would delay matters and b) from reading this forum alone know that whatever they proposed a proportion of the fan base will be fuming about it, albeit whether that runs to sticking head above parapet and formally objecting who knows and c) would mean spunking !0's k's up the wall on professional and application fees alone.

I would imagine that the residential bit is a kite flying exercise just to gauge opinions, would probably make the best returns financially but is it worth the hassle, lets see what the fans say. I imagine that a master plan is already sketched out for the site with interchangeable uses for certain plots, with a viability appraisal standing along side it to be updated as per type/use, quality, siting and quantum of developments.

Haven't even looked at the questionnaire yet, but I did receive one a I am not black balled by Sandro/Kiely/Austin so we shall see.  
Helpful to have your planning insight on board.  

A master plan with interchangeable uses for certain plots makes sense - alongside a longshot "housing" alternative with what you say is its "funding" advantage.

It is really the funding that will be the challenge and the skills of the County Ground Joint Venture Board will be crucial.  I was pleased to note that the Eady Trust will be having its input there - in terms of protecting the fans' best interests.
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horlock07

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« Reply #256 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:27:54 »

I'm pretty sure Angus said "nothing would happen for at least 18 months"

If he means shovels in ground sounds about right once you take into account preparing the application/s (which may need an EIA), determination period probably of at least 6 months, then no doubt a plethora of pre-start conditions to discharge before anything can be done.

We do however know there is a Council buyback option condition in our CG purchase agreement if development work has not started within (I believe) 3 years.  Not sure exactly what is meant by development work but that makes some progress likely.  We can but support the club financially as best as possible meanwhile whilst continuing to air our concerns.

TBH setting aside what definition of 'development work' is applied (coincidentally I am presently having a very similar debate with a Council in Wales regarding something like this), there are also several reasons why I can't see this happening, firstly one potential key delay to this whole process is the planning which is entirely in the gift of the Council and or the SoS via PINS, any delays in this could be argued to be outside the control of the Club and the delay being caused by the same party attempting to apply the contract and thus the deadline extended. Secondly in the present financial climate I can't see the Council wishing to repurchase a grotty stadium which they can't do much with and if they have fallen out with the club likley lost their only potential tenant, it would go down like a white elephant tied to a lead balloon with tax payers.
« Last Edit: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:30:32 by horlock07 » Logged
Jimmy HaveHave

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« Reply #257 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:32:11 »

If he means shovels in ground sounds about right once you take into account preparing the application/s (which may need an EIA), determination period probably of at least 6 months, then no doubt a plethora of pre-start conditions to discharge before anything can be done.

TBH setting aside what definition of 'development work' is applied (coincidentally I am presently having a very similar debate with a Council in Wales regarding something like this), there are also several reasons why I can't see this happening, firstly one potential key delay to this whole process is the planning which is entirely in the gift of the Council and or the SoS via PINS, any delays in this could be argued to be outside the control of the Club and the delay being caused by the same party attempting to apply the contract and thus the deadline extended. Secondly in the present financial climate I can't see the Council wishing to repurchase a grotty stadium which they can't do much with and if they have fallen out with the club likley lost their only potential tenant, it would go down like a white elephant tied to a lead balloon with tax payers.

Where's all the talk of building houses come from🤔
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dalumpimunki

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« Reply #258 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:35:47 »

I think we're all reaching the stage where we've got past the simple relief of having an owner who seems to be trying to build a club rather than simply using it as a front for self enrichment in whatever legal,  semi legal or plain crooked way they can find. After a couple of seasons we're now hoping for some competence. It's not like we've not had people with money running the club previously (and with much more than Clem), but without some football knowhow, they just spent a lot of cash and never left the bottom two leagues.When they left we were no better off than when they arrived

The ground purchase and development will at least mean we'll see some off the the field progress this time around, but to move things forward on the playing side the coaching staff need to be supported with some experienced professionals on the recruitment and football administration side.

Much as I'm pleased that we have a CEO in place that fans can trust to have the club's best interests at heart, I think it's a worry that that side of the club management is him and SDM. With a CEO with no background in pro football clubs, we need a DoF with more experience than we currently have. SDM may have a part to play but I don't see how he fits the role of Technical Director.

In that role you're asking Morris to defer to the superior technical footballing knowledge of SDM and that isn't sustainable. I can't see us starting next season with the current set up frankly.
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RedRag

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« Reply #259 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:40:43 »

So the buy back provision is extremely unlikely to be used in practice.  Noted.

Any outline thoughts beyond planning on how a development of the scale (Town End/Stratton Bank) and type (hotel/other venue(s) ) previously discussed might be funded?  
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Mooneyraker

« Reply #260 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:56:36 »

I was pleased to note that the Eady Trust will be having its input there - in terms of protecting the fans' best interests.

Yes, good to have a canary in the coalmine in the form of the Eady Trust.

On that note, do we know if the 2.4m or whatever it was was the full amount left to the club by Nigel? I know a good amount obviously went to the Community club too. I had heard a rumour that the Eady Trust had been extremely well managed and that the legacy had grown significantly as a result.
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horlock07

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« Reply #261 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:57:15 »

So the buy back provision is extremely unlikely to be used in practice.  Noted.

Never say never, but to me it appears to be as much of an undesirable outcome to be avoided at all costs for the Council as the club.

Any outline thoughts beyond planning on how a development of the scale (Town End/Stratton Bank) and type (hotel/other venue(s) ) previously discussed might be funded?  

There are any number of ways, Clems pockets, bank funding, JV's, third party funding. With things like hotels its often property investment companies who buy the land either with or without planning permission and then fund and complete the development and then lease to the operators, but not sure how that would work for the club as they desire the 24/7/365 income that would only really come if they retained the freehold.

Construction and development (including its financing is all over the shop at the moment with as many companies booming as are going bang, so we shall see.

I can see this being a whole new can of worms for people to get excited about once the process develops.

P.S just completed the questionnaire and its as interesting for what it doesn't say as for what it does, albeit everyone needs to calm down a bit. Its undoubtedly the case that what is listed is what the club is thinking of doing, but likewise they ain't going to do it just if the fans say so, so for instance they will only build a hotel/ressy if their commercial advisors say its commerciality viable, not because a majority of the fans think its a good idea.  
« Last Edit: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:00:02 by horlock07 » Logged
Wobbly Bob

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« Reply #262 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 09:58:29 »

Where's all the talk of building houses come from🤔

Trust survey for the JV board to consider.
Join up Jimbo & you'll get one.  Smiley
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Bob's Orange
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« Reply #263 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:00:58 »

Thinking slightly shorter term, in the last AB minutes it stated that we passed the ground's safety inspection but with the caveat that we would invest in certain areas. The emergency generator was one thing and I also heard that we had to reduce capacity to 70% of the ground which I think was down to the Stratton Bank basically being 'condemned'. I know the options for the SB are either to chuck a roof on it or completely redevelop it, but given the awful facilities and the fact it can't be used, what do people think we should do with it?

It sounds like we can't just stick a roof on it as that won't make it usable and therefore we might have to think about doing something properly with it?
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Mooneyraker

« Reply #264 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:10:03 »

Thinking slightly shorter term, in the last AB minutes it stated that we passed the ground's safety inspection but with the caveat that we would invest in certain areas. The emergency generator was one thing and I also heard that we had to reduce capacity to 70% of the ground which I think was down to the Stratton Bank basically being 'condemned'. I know the options for the SB are either to chuck a roof on it or completely redevelop it, but given the awful facilities and the fact it can't be used, what do people think we should do with it?

It sounds like we can't just stick a roof on it as that won't make it usable and therefore we might have to think about doing something properly with it?

I'd hold off spending a bean on it until it can be done properly. We aren't going to be knocking the Arkells down anytime soon, so better to spend a bit of cash in there fixing the horror-show toilets and improving the concourse etc. It makes me laugh that we are owned by a plumber but the taps in the Arkells toilets have been broken for at least 30 years!
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horlock07

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« Reply #265 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:25:21 »

Thinking slightly shorter term, in the last AB minutes it stated that we passed the ground's safety inspection but with the caveat that we would invest in certain areas. The emergency generator was one thing and I also heard that we had to reduce capacity to 70% of the ground which I think was down to the Stratton Bank basically being 'condemned'. I know the options for the SB are either to chuck a roof on it or completely redevelop it, but given the awful facilities and the fact it can't be used, what do people think we should do with it?

It sounds like we can't just stick a roof on it as that won't make it usable and therefore we might have to think about doing something properly with it?

Is the 10K thing anything bar rumour at this stage? FWIW we only got over 10K in 3 games this season (Wallsall, Grimsby and Gillingham two of which were under Mad Gav so he is a lure!) we would likely again with Wrexham, NC if they come up and Oxford if they come down.

I suppose the issue will be what needs to be spent on the SB to get it certified and balance that against the potential lost ticket revenue of a restricted attendance for a bit?

WRT the roof, I remain unconvinced that this can be easily done considering what shite is likely to be beneath the terracing, so probably if it can be start from new, something similar (but I assume lower) to the DR was approved at the same time as the DR so if they can find that polish it and resubmit it?
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Bob's Orange
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« Reply #266 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:41:09 »

I'd hold off spending a bean on it until it can be done properly. We aren't going to be knocking the Arkells down anytime soon, so better to spend a bit of cash in there fixing the horror-show toilets and improving the concourse etc. It makes me laugh that we are owned by a plumber but the taps in the Arkells toilets have been broken for at least 30 years!

I'm inclined to agree. We didn't use the SB at all this season (I think that's right) and we should be able to accommodate the away support in the Arkells  - realistically only Oxford (should they get relegated) and Wrexham would be looking for extra tickets so it's probably going to be ok to be out of bounds until we eventually get into league 1.

Is the 10K thing anything bar rumour at this stage? FWIW we only got over 10K in 3 games this season (Wallsall, Grimsby and Gillingham two of which were under Mad Gav so he is a lure!) we would likely again with Wrexham, NC if they come up and Oxford if they come down.

I suppose the issue will be what needs to be spent on the SB to get it certified and balance that against the potential lost ticket revenue of a restricted attendance for a bit?

WRT the roof, I remain unconvinced that this can be easily done considering what shite is likely to be beneath the terracing, so probably if it can be start from new, something similar (but I assume lower) to the DR was approved at the same time as the DR so if they can find that polish it and resubmit it?

Rumour as far as I know. My assumption was that this is only a recent thing where we 'passed' the recent safety inspection with the caveat that we have to buy a generator and (this is the assumption) not use the SB.
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we've been to Aberdeen, we hate the Hibs, they make us spew up, so make some noise,
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Batch
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« Reply #267 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:47:56 »

I suppose the issue will be what needs to be spent on the SB to get it certified and balance that against the potential lost ticket revenue of a restricted attendance for a bit?

That, and is it dead money if we do something more substantial in the nearish future.

We do need to start on 1m ground improvements withing 12 months, right?
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horlock07

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« Reply #268 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 10:58:00 »


We do need to start on 1m ground improvements withing 12 months, right?

I suspect easily spent over the summer just tidying/repairing existing without the need for any consents from anyone.
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ChalkyWhiteIsGod
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« Reply #269 on: Monday, April 24, 2023, 11:11:22 »

I'm pretty sure Angus said "nothing would happen for at least 18 months"

Aren't we required to start work within that time frame or the council can buy the ground back?
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