Poll
Question: Who gets your vote?  (Voting closed: Friday, March 17, 2023, 21:41:58)
Sol Brynn - 1 (2.8%)
Marcel Lavinier (sub 73) - 1 (2.8%)
Tom Clayton - 4 (11.1%)
Tom Brewitt - 7 (19.4%)
Remeao Hutton - 1 (2.8%)
George McEachran - 8 (22.2%)
Jonny Williams (sub 78) - 9 (25%)
Ronan Darcy - 2 (5.6%)
Jacob Wakeling - 0 (0%)
Luke Jephcott (sub 73) - 0 (0%)
Tyrese Shade (sub 73) - 0 (0%)
Charlie Austin (on 73) - 1 (2.8%)
Rushian Hepburn-Murphy (on 73) - 0 (0%)
Harrison Minturn (on 73) - 0 (0%)
Jake Cain (on 78) - 2 (5.6%)
Total Voters: 36

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Author Topic: Walsall v Swindon MoM Thread  (Read 2234 times)
DiV
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« Reply #30 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 09:40:22 »

Indeed its all about opinions and we all have them but when someone disagrees with yours (not yours specifically Batch Wink ) it doesnt mean they are automatically wrong or right its an opinion and no need to shout the other persons opinion down just state your own and move on.

Darcy didnít play well & Darcy had the best pass completion stats donít necessarily have to contradict each other.
In this case both opinions could be true
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Nemo
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« Reply #31 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 09:46:53 »

Football stats summed up

Or, alternatively, people's understanding of statistics summed up. Sometimes unlikely events happen, that's part of why we like football - we've all seen games with our own eyes where the better team didn't win, sometimes to a ludicrous degree.

With the passing accuracy stats point you quote, you're absolutely right in that short passes and long balls forward can't be reasonably judged the same way - but you can get that break down easily enough.

Bad stats are worse than no stats, but good use of stats is how pretty much all high level football runs now.

If we play 46 games a season, you'd expect a 2% probability (roughly 1 in 46) to happen once in a normal season.
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Mooneyraker

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« Reply #32 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 09:52:25 »

I think in general across the board, and other than McKirdy many from last season were guilty of this too, we have lacked bravery in both passing and attempting to beat the man this year. As Dan on the LS Pod said, Shade checked back when he could have had a run in on goal on Tuesday. That has been going on for too long. Forward passes are on, or at least worth a risk, and we check back and take the easy safe option. Or there is space for someone receiving the ball wide to bomb on and try and beat their man but after a short burst they check back and pass it sideways/backwards. Thinking back to our best season at this level and I remember Caddis and Ritchie simply terrorising defences down the right. Hutton was giving it a bit of a go before January but other than that it is pretty dreary fare. Is this a lack of confidence or self belief, or is the Garner/Lindsey apparent obsession with possession above all else just too deeply rooted? This is why I think we get these, on paper, terrific passing stats like Darcy's without creating anything meaningful at all. I think there is a player there, but he needs to be really in the 10 role and if you are saying that, all he is is William's back up, which feels about right.
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« Reply #33 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 09:53:51 »

Pass completion stats are fine but need to be looked at alongside key passes both successful & attempted etc.

Heat maps, we need heat maps.

Darcy is ok, has gone missing in games at times but so have the rest of them.
Needs to add some assists & more goals.
At least he is prepared to have a shot & he has added some much needed energy on occasion when coming on.

He wears the no 10 but doesn't play in that role, maybe he should be tried out as the advanced playmaker. Don't think that anyone has done that with any great success this season.
Morris does have scope to experiment.
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« Reply #34 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 09:59:20 »

I think in general across the board, and other than McKirdy many from last season were guilty of this too, we have lacked bravery in both passing and attempting to beat the man this year. As Dan on the LS Pod said, Shade checked back when he could have had a run in on goal on Tuesday. That has been going on for too long. Forward passes are on, or at least worth a risk, and we check back and take the easy safe option. Or there is space for someone receiving the ball wide to bomb on and try and beat their man but after a short burst they check back and pass it sideways/backwards. Thinking back to our best season at this level and I remember Caddis and Ritchie simply terrorising defences down the right. Hutton was giving it a bit of a go before January but other than that it is pretty dreary fare. Is this a lack of confidence or self belief, or is the Garner/Lindsey apparent obsession with possession above all else just too deeply rooted? This is why I think we get these, on paper, terrific passing stats like Darcy's without creating anything meaningful at all. I think there is a player there, but he needs to be really in the 10 role and if you are saying that, all he is is William's back up, which feels about right.


Concur. Reed & Conroy the worst for this imo.
Felt Reed was a stat padder and in some games hindered us more than helped us.
We didnít really attack till Payne or McKirdy dropped a bit deeper, collected the ball and ran with it.

I think the passing game is deep rooted in most clubs now. There now seems to be this movement over the last 5-10 years that the passing game is the only way to play the game & that, that is the only type of play the fans want to see and kicking it long and up on the air will make people go home and never come back. I really miss old school wingers who would take on their man.

Maybe itís the nostalgia or maybe it was being younger but like there was always like this weird static electric buzz type of anticipation every time Mark Walters got the ball that he was gonna make something happen. Even if it was a simple as kicking it past the defender and running onto it before wrapping his boot around it and crossing it into the box.

I miss that.
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Bob's Orange
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« Reply #35 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:01:21 »

I think in general across the board, and other than McKirdy many from last season were guilty of this too, we have lacked bravery in both passing and attempting to beat the man this year. As Dan on the LS Pod said, Shade checked back when he could have had a run in on goal on Tuesday. That has been going on for too long. Forward passes are on, or at least worth a risk, and we check back and take the easy safe option. Or there is space for someone receiving the ball wide to bomb on and try and beat their man but after a short burst they check back and pass it sideways/backwards. Thinking back to our best season at this level and I remember Caddis and Ritchie simply terrorising defences down the right. Hutton was giving it a bit of a go before January but other than that it is pretty dreary fare. Is this a lack of confidence or self belief, or is the Garner/Lindsey apparent obsession with possession above all else just too deeply rooted? This is why I think we get these, on paper, terrific passing stats like Darcy's without creating anything meaningful at all. I think there is a player there, but he needs to be really in the 10 role and if you are saying that, all he is is William's back up, which feels about right.


I reckon this is a great shout and one I've alluded to before. (that's not why I think it's a great shout mind! Smiley )

McKirdy (and probably DJ before him) were players that fans, and probably the players themselves had absolutely no idea what they were going to do. They are exciting, confident flair players that get fans off of their feet. McKirdy was an absolute master of playing to the gallery and he had his best season in league football on the back of it. Since McKirdy has left, there is nobody to fill that void, the current team is functional but (dare I say) boring. The football is risk free, which feeds back into the stands of mainly bored people frustrated with how we play. Shade frustrated me on Tuesday as well, is he afraid to take the chance of driving on past his defender, he doesn't appear to lack personal confidence if you look at his goal celebrations!

It does make you wonder whether Lindsey's pragmatic approach has driven the attacking notions out of players. For the remainder of the season I'd like to see Morris really let the players off the leash and see if we can play with a bit more swagger and attacking verve that really is lacking currently. Get the excitement back, the fans will then play their part vocally and who knows we might squeak into the play-offs on the back of it (I don't really believe that sadly)
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« Reply #36 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:04:46 »

I reckon this is a great shout and one I've alluded to before. (that's not why I think it's a great shout mind! Smiley )

McKirdy (and probably DJ before him) were players that fans, and probably the players themselves had absolutely no idea what they were going to do. They are exciting, confident flair players that get fans off of their feet. McKirdy was an absolute master of playing to the gallery and he had his best season in league football on the back of it. Since McKirdy has left, there is nobody to fill that void, the current team is functional but (dare I say) boring. The football is risk free, which feeds back into the stands of mainly bored people frustrated with how we play. Shade frustrated me on Tuesday as well, is he afraid to take the chance of driving on past his defender, he doesn't appear to lack personal confidence if you look at his goal celebrations!

It does make you wonder whether Lindsey's pragmatic approach has driven the attacking notions out of players. For the remainder of the season I'd like to see Morris really let the players off the leash and see if we can play with a bit more swagger and attacking verve that really is lacking currently.

Took Gav Gunning like three days to change it up tbf
Even before Grimsby went down to 10 we were going forward with more intent than we had all season. I mean thatís what lead to the sending off - and whilst the context is important not every team that goes down to 10 men then proceeds to get thumped 5-0 by anyone, let alone us
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« Reply #37 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:09:10 »

Took Gav Gunning like three days to change it up tbf
Even before Grimsby went down to 10 we were going forward with more intent than we had all season. I mean thatís what lead to the sending off - and whilst the context is important not every team that goes down to 10 men then proceeds to get thumped 5-0 by anyone, let alone us

I mean Gunning took things to bizarre extremes and whilst the games were exciting, I'm not sure long term would be successful. I mean our defence is shakier than a shitting dog under 'ordinary' managers, with an absolute tactical lunatic in charge we'd potentially be on the end of a number of hidings! Too small a sample size to make an argument either way really.
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« Reply #38 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:09:35 »

Not disagreeing with the fact that stats can be misleading. I just posted that one as a counterargument to the one that said he gave the ball away . However,a sideways pass in midfield that switches play or starts an attack (which Darcy mostly did on Tuesday) is slightly different and more effective than a centre half(eg Conroy) passing 2 yards sideways to his fellow defender on the edge of the box following a goal kick say.
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« Reply #39 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:10:27 »

I reckon this is a great shout and one I've alluded to before. (that's not why I think it's a great shout mind! Smiley )

McKirdy (and probably DJ before him) were players that fans, and probably the players themselves had absolutely no idea what they were going to do. They are exciting, confident flair players that get fans off of their feet. McKirdy was an absolute master of playing to the gallery and he had his best season in league football on the back of it. Since McKirdy has left, there is nobody to fill that void, the current team is functional but (dare I say) boring. The football is risk free, which feeds back into the stands of mainly bored people frustrated with how we play. Shade frustrated me on Tuesday as well, is he afraid to take the chance of driving on past his defender, he doesn't appear to lack personal confidence if you look at his goal celebrations!

It does make you wonder whether Lindsey's pragmatic approach has driven the attacking notions out of players. For the remainder of the season I'd like to see Morris really let the players off the leash and see if we can play with a bit more swagger and attacking verve that really is lacking currently.
Yeah several of us have suggested similar mate.

As you rightly state McKirdy and DJ were the only 2 players this century that I can remember got the ball and ran at defences and got the crowd on their feet thinking something was going to happen.

I know its nostalgia but players like that were much pore prevalent years ago, its like that sort of thing is frowned upon with new tactics of possession above all else, players are too scared to lose possession rather than just going for the juguler.

Bobby Barnes, Don Rodgers, Ian Miller, Mark Walters etc etc who all when they got the ball there was a buzz going around the ground of anticipation.

I miss that too.
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« Reply #40 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:13:51 »

Yeah several of us have suggested similar mate.

As you rightly state McKirdy and DJ were the only 2 players this century that I can remember got the ball and ran at defences and got the crowd on their feet thinking something was going to happen.

I know its nostalgia but players like that were much pore prevalent years ago, its like that sort of thing is frowned upon with new tactics of possession above all else, players are too scared to lose possession rather than just going for the juguler.

Bobby Barnes, Don Rodgers, Ian Miller, Mark Walters etc etc who all when they got the ball there was a buzz going around the ground of anticipation.

I miss that too.

Agreed. I sometimes think modern managers think a turtle neck, expensive trainers and an obsession with Guardiola will be enough to see them through. Zero pragmatism and zero care for the fact that ultimately they are in the entertainment business. Paolo got it (and yes, I'm aware he got a lot wrong!).
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« Reply #41 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:21:26 »

Agreed. I sometimes think modern managers think a turtle neck, expensive trainers and an obsession with Guardiola will be enough to see them through. Zero pragmatism and zero care for the fact that ultimately they are in the entertainment business. Paolo got it (and yes, I'm aware he got a lot wrong!).
Yes you are right, football is a results business now even though for many fans its an entertainment business.

I want to go watch us be competitive and be entertained, not just get a result above all else (Cowleys) I dont want to see backwards passing JUST to keep possession at all costs (Lindsey) under Morris we are playing better football than under Lindsey but its not quite there yet, I just dont think we have the right quality player to fit his system though.
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« Reply #42 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:27:06 »

I absolutely believe that Morris is the right man. He has fixed what he can at this stage. We look much better organised and work much harder. Instilling confidence to do what we are all suggesting will take time, and sadly possibly a pre-season.
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« Reply #43 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 10:27:35 »

We could do with a young Lloyd Isgrove to give us a spark!
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« Reply #44 on: Thursday, March 16, 2023, 12:33:08 »

Pass stats in isolation are so meaningless.
70% possession, 2 shots on target as an example are unlikely to win you a football match.

We have so many similar ďtechnicalĒ players but often lack a physical dominance when games turn ugly and they certainly do at this level.
Hopefully will be addressed in readiness for another mind blowing season in this woeful division.
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