Mansfield Town vs Swindon Town match day thread

[Boeta]

On the subject of Grant, I did preface my comment about using him with the notion of not knowing if he could even do it given fitness etc.

If Grant was fully match fit and raring to go, I'd be using him right now in the Conroy position.  He should be the "free" central defender, so his defensive ability is more about reading the game when required and organising people around him.  That's what a fit Grant type of player would give you and Conroy is not.  Grant is also pretty good on the ball, another attribute a Garner team would need from such a player.  The problem right now is that free central defender is in fact just one of three, with none of them seemingly aware of who has who.  The third goal last night being an extreme example - Odimayo and Conroy both let the centre forward move five yards away from them.  Neither noticed, neither pressed, neither even looked at each other to determine who was going to go - they simply looked befuddled once he had scored and I think Conroy looked irritated at Ward for the original kick (which was shit and did put us under pressure).

More problematic though, which I do not think will change, is the team does not look like one that is being trained with pragmatism in mind.  Caddis called it out in commentary - the ball down their flank was on all game, but had to be one played behind the defenders to allow Simpson to turn and run and chase.  Not one played into him or to his head to compete.  Both fullbacks had this opportunity open to them the entire game, we hardly eve took it.  Instead they would chip balls forward once the short passes had been taken away.  That seems like the way we are coached because it's a choice being made and we nearly always make the same one.  So even our out ball when pressed is one that is trying to retain possession, rather than turn a defence and create space.

Without being a complete brown nose, I would pay a subscription fee for your posts/analysis Rob.

This is a big difference between Garner-ball (which is reminiscent of Luke Williams style) and Wellens-ball. Wellens was happy to use Woolery, particularly, as a physical outlet either as a wide target man or hit it into space for him to run onto to stretch the play.

Wellensball was so good because we could outpass teams or draw them onto us and hit them on the counter. The danger with Garner is it becomes like Williams where there is endless cycling of the ball without cutting edge.

[RobertT]

Very few Managers create systems that stand the test of time - Guardiola is a freak, Ferguson changed many times.  That's my major gripe with the attempt to instill a type of Prem Academy approach - that is designed to create talent, not winning teams.  We have seen it ourselves in the past - Ardiles created something nobody had seen before in our leagues and it worked for a a few seasons before people figured out how to nullify it.  He's not done much since as a result.

I think Wellens created something that worked, with the squad he pulled together, but it too would have needed modification.  It turned pretty loose as soon as the squad was impacted in fact.  He relied on the midfielder dropping into the full back slot and acting like a QB from wide.  That makes the opposition midfield confused - do you follow your man and vacate the middle, or hold your defensive position.  In time, people would watch how we play and find a way of countering that.

I think Garner will develop talent, we will often be nice to watch and with the right signings I think we can be in the hunt this season or even next.  I'm not sure we have the resources (financial) to do the same a level higher sticking solely to the same way of playing.

I want to be wrong though.

[STFC_Manc]

Without being a complete brown nose, I would pay a subscription fee for your posts/analysis Rob.

This is a big difference between Garner-ball (which is reminiscent of Luke Williams style) and Wellens-ball. Wellens was happy to use Woolery, particularly, as a physical outlet either as a wide target man or hit it into space for him to run onto to stretch the play.

Wellensball was so good because we could outpass teams or draw them onto us and hit them on the counter. The danger with Garner is it becomes like Williams where there is endless cycling of the ball without cutting edge.

One big difference between the squads that Wellens and Garner has now is that Wellens had better team, we are under an embargo which limits who we can get.  If we had better players, would Garners team be more effective at sticking to the game plan.

[DiV]

Very few Managers create systems that stand the test of time - Guardiola is a freak, Ferguson changed many times.  That's my major gripe with the attempt to instill a type of Prem Academy approach - that is designed to create talent, not winning teams.  We have seen it ourselves in the past - Ardiles created something nobody had seen before in our leagues and it worked for a a few seasons before people figured out how to nullify it.  He's not done much since as a result.

I think Wellens created something that worked, with the squad he pulled together, but it too would have needed modification.  It turned pretty loose as soon as the squad was impacted in fact.  He relied on the midfielder dropping into the full back slot and acting like a QB from wide.  That makes the opposition midfield confused - do you follow your man and vacate the middle, or hold your defensive position.  In time, people would watch how we play and find a way of countering that.

I think Garner will develop talent, we will often be nice to watch and with the right signings I think we can be in the hunt this season or even next.  I'm not sure we have the resources (financial) to do the same a level higher sticking solely to the same way of playing.

I want to be wrong though.

With the way things are at the moment with finances and Garner and his philosophies - if feels like we’re aiming to replicate Crewe.

Which will bring plaudits and niceties but not a lot of on pitch success.

[4D]

Just saw the highlights and the ref was about 50 yards away from the incident, and the lino was in the other half on that side.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey]

Wellens had Doyle and Yates. The opposition were, rightly, scared of leaving themselves exposed at the back they weren’t able to press effectively. Now, even with a high press, teams know we don’t play out with speed or even a long ball to put pressure on them. If the opposition lose the ball there is ample time for them to regroup whilst we fanny around with aimless passes at the back.

There is nothing wrong with what we are trying to do it’s judt that we don’t do it quickly enough and the players seem so conscious of misplacing a pass they often take the slow, ponderous option of a sideways or backwards pass.

What Garner says is correct. Keep doing what we’re doing, but do it better. The problem with that is having the players to implement it effectively - a necessity in every position. I can’t see how a lower league club can achieve using this model, though. It may well get us out of L2 some time but what then? Crewe are an example of what we are looking to replicate. Producing players to keep their club afloat financially but sacrificing any chance of long term progression. If people are happy to accept that, fair enough. It’s not for me, though.

[Robinz]

Great post Audrey

That said, we really don't have the historical financials to prove whether a club such as Swindon can survive balancing what happens on the pitch and off it.

Possibly the nearest example is Exeter and their policies.

Just stating, STFC is in a far better situation off the field today than it was 6 months ago. Hopefully things will keep inproving both on and off the field.
COYMRs       

[Crackity Jones]

Agree with most of what you are saying Aud.

We are only 6 months into our fresh start so while we are dealing with our historical debts etc, Garner's hands are somewhat tied with regards to player recruitment and getting the players that play his way. He has made a good start but we (and I am sure, he) can all see where the gaps are. This season was always about EFL survival. The fact we are where we are has shifted expectations and we want to push on.

As for sustainability, I see nothing wrong in the Crewe approach in producing our own players or taking non-league players and developing and selling on.

I think we can use this model to get to the championship but we need the additional revenue owning our own ground, redevelopment of it and maximising match day and commercial revenue alongside it. Our attendance is what, double that of Crewe? I think that is a point of difference.

Perhaps someone like Peterborough might be a good example - they have sold on Toney and others for good profit?

[JoeMezz]

tThe difference of course between us and Crewe is they average attendances around 4,000 and we this season have averaged 8,000+. I understand the method at the moment, save money while trying to remove the debt. The embargo (that ends in the summer) means that we can't spend money anyway. I'd be surprised if Clem and co were content with being a permanent  League One and Two yo-yo team.

[Bob's Orange]

It took Crewe years to implement their youth and training academy and costs them a pretty penny also. Their income from crowds is low (half ours this season at least) and realistically their ceiling is league 1. It also relies on batches of talented players coming through their academy. At the cup game I was chatting to some Crewe fans pre-match and I got the feeling they get what they are trying to do, but it's pretty boring and basically they are a yo-yo club between league 1 and 2. When they get a talented group it's enough to either keep them in league 1 or get them promoted from league 2 but them that group of players gets sold off, they fall back into league 2 and stay there until the next batch of decent youth players come through. It's very much rinse and repeat and I can't see our fanbase being particularly fond of that approach.

The other club mentioned is Peterborough and I reckon that's probably more a club we are trying to aspire to. They generally have smaller crowds than us (5-8k in league 1 at a guess) but are absolutely tremendous at finding players from non-league or lower down the pyramid and developing them to sell on for huge amounts. This has allowed them to get into the Championship a few times, (where to be honest they are unlikely to stay) but you now regard them as a top 8 league 1 side, they are always there or there abouts.

Bringing in Ben Chorley as our chief scout/DOF I think is key as to how we progress. We've already seen what kind of players he can bring to the club, Louis Reed and Jonny Williams for example I am sure could have got clubs in league 1 at least but have dropped down to us. Obviously we want to improve our youth team but that is going to take both time and money and in recent history aside from the really young players that get poached by Premier league sides before they have even got to first team level (which is still decent income to the club granted) and Scott Twine, we just never really get a good batch of youths that are likely to go on to have a good career at us, or are sold on for xx million quid. If we can get a mix of the Crewe and Peterborough philosophy I think we can get towards the top end of league 1 and maybe towards the Championship. I was going to say once you get there it's a leap but I look at clubs like Luton and Barnsley who have made a good stab at staying in that league without having to sell their stadium or break FPP rules etc.

As CJ said, we are 6 months into the new regime. This season we started hugely unprepared and we've managed to put together a competitive team that has got to the 3rd round of the FA Cup for the first time in however many years and doing pretty well in the league. I think we probably need to take stock and see where we are at the end of the season with Garner. Personally I have a feeling we might fall short this season given everything that is going on, and means next season we have a proper shot at glory (go on the clichés!!)

[Batch]

oooh. I hope that last sentence is about kkh and not more recalls .

I guess we can lose crichlow if we really have to with the bfg coming in ..

I'm going to be that man. I am never right about anything! Lucky guess.

Why would we need to consider losing Crichlow? We’ve only got 3 loan players so still got space for 2 more and no cover at the back. We’d be daft to even consider losing Crichlow as we’d be back to needing another centre back.

We'll be needing another CB then unless he somehow comes back - he was getting reasonable game time and developing without looking "way too good" yet - so not sre why he's been recalled.

Only conspiracy on my part - BFG is going to be starting and Crich would be on the bench...

[lovestfc]

Critchlow recalled !!

[4D]

Hot off the press.

[Jimmy HaveHave]

Signed for Plymouth on loan!

[RedRag]

Signed for Plymouth on loan!

Good luck to him.  Has done everything we could have hoped for from a loanee.

IMO he will be up to L1 level and leaves at a time when our defence could not be weaker.