Rights Issue

[Phil_S]

Must say I'm impressed with the way the advertising has increased around the ground.

[jonny72]

Its worrying that the club is still losing so much money and that such a massive increase in income is needed to turn things round. Its crazy that people are still having to pump in cash to clubs such as Swindon to keep them going, surely something needs to be done to sort the mess out that most clubs are in?

[Reg Smeeton]

Its worrying that the club is still losing so much money and that such a massive increase in income is needed to turn things round. Its crazy that people are still having to pump in cash to clubs such as Swindon to keep them going, surely something needs to be done to sort the mess out that most clubs are in?

In reality, clubs should go part time.....there's no justification for the mediocre player that we see, to be paid so much.

[pauld]

In reality, clubs should go part time.....there's no justification for the mediocre player that we see, to be paid so much.

Following in some unpleasant footsteps there, Reg, or are you deliberately setting yourself up as Swindon's answer to Peter Kenyon?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2545103.stm
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2580/29/

[Reg Smeeton]

Following in some unpleasant footsteps there, Reg, or are you deliberately setting yourself up as Swindon's answer to Peter Kenyon?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2545103.stm
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2580/29/

Old news there Mr D, but it doesn't alter the basic fact, that lower league pro football in this country doesn't make a great deal of sense.

There should be no reason why it can't continue, but the players are paid too much.

When the system evolved there was a maximum wage, and players weren't paid out of season....this meant although clubs were often a bit skint, the sums involved were more manageable.

Now the fans are charged too much, and aren't necessarily getting a better product because of it.

[leefer]

Players wages,policing bills,stewarding bills.staff wages,health and safety needs...all costs big money...Reg is right though players wages are the main reason why clubs are struggling financially...at the top end clubs can afford it as they are getting the revenue,and also can borrow on the back of TV revenue..at our end its different..the only answer is joining them.

[pauld]

Old news there Mr D, but it doesn't alter the basic fact, that lower league pro football in this country doesn't make a great deal of sense.

There should be no reason why it can't continue, but the players are paid too much.

When the system evolved there was a maximum wage, and players weren't paid out of season....this meant although clubs were often a bit skint, the sums involved were more manageable.

Now the fans are charged too much, and aren't necessarily getting a better product because of it.

I'd agree the players are overpaid, but what you initially advocated was lower league clubs going semi-pro, a la Kenyon. But if only the top two leagues are fully professional. that would effectively pull up the drawbridge on the top two leagues, as it would be nigh on impossible for 3rd/4th tier semi-pro teams to bridge the gap. It's the same reason why over half the Conference is now full time, because otherwise they can't hope to compete in terms of getting League status. Lower wages yes, I'd wholly agree, and enforced by a wage cap, but going fully semi-pro in the bottom two tiers is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I suspect Phil Gartside would also agree with you though, would greatly help out with his own "pulling up the drawbridge behind us" plans.

[jonny72]

I'm not sure what the solution is but something needs to be done.

Something has to happen with regard to wages. Whether the players are worth what they are paid isn't really relevant, the only relevant thing is that clubs can't afford them so they must be paying too much. Its kind of stupid in that its competition between clubs for players that push the wages up, but this also means it could be solved pretty easily by enforcing wage caps.

I reckon the top clubs have to be part of the solution as well. Especially as they have so many quality players not playing or in the reserves - those same players could be out on loan to lower league clubs for free (the top clubs won't be losing anything as they'd be paying them anyway plus they'd be getting experience).

I'm in favour of radically changing the loan system. Allowing an unlimited number of loan players and short term (even 1 game) loans would be a great start. If its done right, lower league clubs could reduce their player head count as they could rely on loan players from the top clubs.

[pauld]

Something has to happen with regard to wages. Whether the players are worth what they are paid isn't really relevant, the only relevant thing is that clubs can't afford them so they must be paying too much. Its kind of stupid in that its competition between clubs for players that push the wages up, but this also means it could be solved pretty easily by enforcing wage caps.

I reckon the top clubs have to be part of the solution as well.

Yup. Wage caps from the top down, else otherwise you just create an unbridgeable divide. Which is the problem with the Kenyon/Gartside/Smeeton solution.

I'm in favour of radically changing the loan system. Allowing an unlimited number of loan players and short term (even 1 game) loans would be a great start. If its done right, lower league clubs could reduce their player head count as they could rely on loan players from the top clubs.

That's pretty much already happening, but it's not enough by itself - clubs are still losing money hand over fist with the majority of it going on players' wages.

The problem is the TV money that has allowed the top flight to pull away from the rest of the FL (and the top of the top flight to do so within the PL) has not "trickled down" as it was supposed to, but the wage inflation has. Tackle the problem at root - there is no sane reality in which any individual merits (or can actually even spend) £100,000+  a week.

[michael]

GBP7,000,000 to break even?

That sounds like a ridiculous amount of money to me.

Is it fair to assume that is required to enable board loans to be repaid as well?

I am going to put it out there that someone wants out.

[pauld]

GBP7,000,000 to break even?

Well, yes and no, the £7m came in as that was the revenue they said they needed to get to to be sustainable in the Championship, not League 1, although I don't think "sustainable" meant breaking-even in the Championship as Fitton said he thought they'd make a higher loss in Championship. More a case of that's the kind of revenue you should be generating to be a sustainable mid-table Championship side (ie not just overachieving for one season and yo-yoing between Championship/League One)

But at the moment we're making an operating loss of £2.8m (before player sales) with a revenue of just under £4m, so not far off that for break-even, if you assume no revenue from player sales, no cup runs etc just the basic revenue from ticket sales with an average gate of around 7500 IIRC.

I don't think that board loans play a significant part in that, most of it is salary and operating costs (not least because they've just converted a tidy chunk of loans into share capital via the rights issue).

[Phil_S]

The problem is as Paul says undoubtably the TV money situation but also the desire of some mega rich men to have afootball club as a hobby.
Th e problem is that the only way any of the TV money gets below the premier league is when a club gets relegated & still get their "parachute payments". (Bit like West Brom). But even then the payment appears to be enough to let some clubs yo yo between the Premier & Championship.
Most of the transfer money goes abroad. Is that beacuse most premier league managers are from abroad ? (Probably no.). The amount going on wages is in my opinion down to the Bosman ruling.
Even with the TV money though some of the premier ship clubs are still on huge unsustainable wage bills & that where the multi billionaires come in.
So ultimately the problem is the TV punter who pays his monthly subscription to Sky pardoxically sometimes cos he can't afford to go to watch his "team" because they are the other end of the country, (& because the ticket price is too high beacause the players are on high wages).
But  the mega rich have raised it to another level.

[Nomoreheroes]

Its been said many a time before, but the future is an American style approach:

1. A top tier of a small group of massive clubs that pay a fortune to the players and play to a major audience on one day per weekend and one evening per week. No promotion nor relegation.

2. A farm league/division funded partially by the big boys. Teams play on the other weekend day and another evening in the week. This is basically reserve team football in all but name. The clubs are owned by the big boys and develop players.

3. A semi-pro regional league sponsored from above or populated by young kids. Split regionally to reduce costs. Some sort of playoff mechanism and maximum amount of time that you can play in the league before you either progress or are released.

4. Amateur leagues.

[Simon Pieman]

I'm sorry but that sounds shit. Promotion and relegation is what football is all about. We dont need an American style play off system as we already have cups for that sort of thing

[jayohaitchenn]

Its been said many a time before, but the future is an American style approach:

1. A top tier of a small group of massive clubs that pay a fortune to the players and play to a major audience on one day per weekend and one evening per week. No promotion nor relegation.

2. A farm league/division funded partially by the big boys. Teams play on the other weekend day and another evening in the week. This is basically reserve team football in all but name. The clubs are owned by the big boys and develop players.

3. A semi-pro regional league sponsored from above or populated by young kids. Split regionally to reduce costs. Some sort of playoff mechanism and maximum amount of time that you can play in the league before you either progress or are released.

4. Amateur leagues.

I've just been sick in my mouth.