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Joseph McLaughlin




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« Reply #30 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 13:26:27 »

Not once did I claim Bentley was great!

I dont know where you drawn the line between England new generation and England old generation but since I've been watching football I'd say England have only produced a handful of top quality players.

David Beckham, Paul Scholes and Alan Shearer all were top class players and still a hell of alot better than what we have today and probably will have for a fair few years to come.
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Lumps

« Reply #31 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 14:08:28 »

Not once did I claim Bentley was great!

I dont know where you drawn the line between England new generation and England old generation but since I've been watching football I'd say England have only produced a handful of top quality players.

David Beckham, Paul Scholes and Alan Shearer all were top class players and still a hell of alot better than what we have today and probably will have for a fair few years to come.

Yeah, sorry the latter part of that was really aimed at others who seem to think that the guy's some sort of bargain at £15m.

Of your three I'd say Shearer for definate was a player of quality, and just the sort of alternative that the England side had lacked in the period before he emerged.

The other two I'm afraid for me fall into the boring mass of recent midfielders produced in this country. There was a time when midfields were basically made up of three different types of player:

ball winners - who could tackle really well
playmakers - who could pass really well
runners - who either dribbled really well or who had incredible pace (generally played out wide)

If you were really lucky you'd find a player, like Gazza, that could a couple of these things brilliantly.
In the last 10 years coaches seem to have been intent on ensuring that all midfielders contribute something in each of these three areas. So you end up with a mass of identikit central midfielders who aren't really brilliant at any of them. When someone like Joe Cole emerges who looks like they might be a bit different the coaches go to work on them and within a season they look as fucking dull as everyone else.

The complete dearth of effective wide players that England has been going through for decades is an symptom of this coaching and one of the things that's made England a bit dull to watch sometimes. That Beckham, who hits a great deadball, and is an accurate passer when sitting deep, but has no pace and not a hint of a trick to allow him to get past an opposing fullback played on England's right wing for the best part of 100 games, sums it up.

Combined with there being NOBODY AT ALL to play on the left of midfield, a situation that reached it's nadir under Hoddle when he picked Jamie Redknapp to play out there, meaning that the England midfield consisted of four central midfield players, this has meant they've gone entire games without a single decent cross arriving in the box.

And before people start on about Beckham being the best crosser of the ball since blah blah blah........ STOP! I've seen Beckham deliver an actual cross for England about four times, usually when Nevilles overlapped and they've played an incredibly predictable one-two and some berk of a left back has fallen on his arse.

The things Beckham usually delivers, that idiot commentators insist on calling crosses, are no such bloody thing. A cross is a pass that is played from a position either square of you or in front of you that you get to run onto. Crosses into the box are pulled back from the deadball line or played square from the corner area. If you're a striker then balls played into the box diagonally, over your shoulder from an area 10 yards inside the halfway line ARE NOT FUCKING CROSSES!

Yes Beckham delivered good, accurate long passes from that position, but he fucking had to because he could never get around the fiull back that was a few yards in front of him preventing him from getting into the REALLY dangerous areas of the pitch.

Anyway. Rant over. In summary:

British midfielders are a bit dull.
The game's not as good as it was in my day.
You lot don't know you're born.
I'm turning into a moaning old git.
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Colin Todd

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« Reply #32 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 14:27:38 »

Who'd have thought it eh?

Trying to make playmakers tackle, or ball winners pass the ball more than 10 yards sideways.  Trying to improve players seems like a stupid idea to me.

Good use of the word berk though.
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« Reply #33 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 14:36:46 »

Who'd have thought it eh?

Trying to make playmakers tackle, or ball winners pass the ball more than 10 yards sideways.  Trying to improve players seems like a stupid idea to me.

Good use of the word berk though.

I guess my point is that it hasn't bloody worked has it. We've just ended up with a load of players that are really athletic and strong, get through a load of work, run all day, track back, and aren't actually very good at anything.

Would Waddle have been a better player if instead of being given the freedom to concentrate on what he was good at his coach had forced him to get his head down and track back with his opposing fullback?

Beckham and Scholes are both playmakers, and both have been coached to make tackles. Both are shit at it and get themselves booked as often as they win a ball.
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Colin Todd

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« Reply #34 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 14:51:44 »

Its not just England Lumps. You dont see many teams these days who's flair players just stand still and look disinterested when they dont have the ball.

It annoys the piss out of me when the likes of Zaaboub did it for Town, or Fatboy Howard got caught out as the furthest man forward and waddled back.

Personally I think you are looking back with rose tinted glasses. Waddle was enigmatic in the extreme. Barnes was shit for England. Robson was quailty but was injured half the time. Platt wasnt really a very good footballer but was fantastic at making late runs into the box.

I note you dont include the mighty right back from Italia 90  - Paul parker
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DV
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« Reply #35 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 14:55:29 »

I think I disgaree with everything you said about David Beckham.

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Rich Pullen

« Reply #36 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:08:13 »

Like Beckham or not (it's a debate that will sadly never die) - you do make him sound like some bloke who has fraudulently waltzed into football and somehow conned the world that his 100+ caps and copius amount of team and individual honours are a mere overachievement.

Meh, he should've joined Preston North End and become an honest grafting footballer - debate over.
« Last Edit: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:24:57 by Rich Pullen » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:21:31 »

Like Beckham or not (it's a debate that will sadly never die) - you do make him sound like some bloke who has fraudulently waltzed into football and somehow conned the world that his 100+ caps and copius amount of team and individual honours are a mere overachievement.

Meh, he should've joined Preston North End ad become an honest grafting footballer - debate over.

I'm not saying he wasn't a decent footballer. He just wasn't a winger.
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« Reply #38 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:29:08 »

Platt wasnt really a very good footballer but was fantastic at making late runs into the box. That's why I said I'd drop him for Gerrard. I was always a bit perplexed about what he was for. He couldn't tackle, wasn't a great passer of the ball, and couldn't really carry the ball, but he kept scoring from Italia 90 onwards so a succession of England managers found it hard to drop him

I note you dont include the mighty right back from Italia 90  - Paul parker I'd still take him over ..........erm who exactly is the England first choice right back now?  Wes Brown? Glen Johnstone?
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Lumps

« Reply #39 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:33:56 »

I think I disgaree with everything you said about David Beckham.
So you think:
He doesn't deliver a good dead ball
He isn't a neat passer both short and long in open play
He's not one paced
He's a Christiano Ronaldo like bag of tricks
He regularly gets to the byeline and centres the ball into the six yard box.

Sorry my mistake I was thinking about the Beckham that used to captain England not the one you're thinking off, whoever that might be.
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Colin Todd

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« Reply #40 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:41:06 »



I make it Gary Neville (if he's ever fit again)or Micah Richards. 

I still maintain our current batch are half decent. Only McLarens idiocy stopped us getting to Euro 2008, where we would probablly have done alright without setting the world on fire, going out in the 1/4 finals to the 1st good team we played. You know, like 2002, 2004, 2006. Thats our level.
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Rich Pullen

« Reply #41 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:49:01 »

I consider qualification for the WC and EC the minimum for an England team. Anything less should result in heads rolling.

Yes, we don't have the god given right to qualify but, lets face it, we really should... Until we go 10 or 12 years without qualifying for anything I'll change that requirement! I didn't live through the dark ages of 1971-79 without know summer tournamants.
« Last Edit: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:52:40 by Rich Pullen » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 15:54:06 »

It clearly is relevant because players with more years left on their contract go for more money.

I'm not arguing that clubs need to pay more to buy out a longer contract than a shorter contract. They do. But it doesn't have an effect on evaluating whether a player is a bargain.

If he had 1 year left and cost £15 million would you say that was less of a bargain then if he had 4 years left and cost £15 million.  It would still cost £15 million to make him your player.

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DV
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« Reply #43 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 16:02:33 »

of course it would be less of a bargin.

If a player had one year left on his contract the club would have less say over the transfer fee because he could walk away for free in a years time. Therefore the upper hand would be with the buying club.

They know that if the player isnt going to sign a new contract the club will want to sell at a cut price in order to get a transfer fee and not lose the player on a free.

If the player has 4 years left on his contract then the selling club has more say. They can easily turn around and 'no deal' because they know full well the player has another 3 years left at club.

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« Reply #44 on: Friday, August 1, 2008, 16:14:59 »

We'll have to disagree on that.  It doesn't matter if that £15 million was £8million for the player and £7M for the contract, or whether it was £15M for the player. I's also irrelevant that in 3 years time they'd only have paid £7M, because they didn't.

Anyway, the main point:

Is he worth £15 million. In my opinion no he isn't.
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