Our attendances

[neville w]

embourgeoisement

Fuck me, I can't compete with that. Even neville might struggle....

Now, what the hell does it mean?

I'd take it to mean (in that context) the dilution of the levels of "working class" as people moved away from tied agricultural type occupations to a more blue/white collar existence, coupled with the increased independence in the housing market.

However, I'd also add access to live televised football as being one of the main factors in falling attendances.  "when I were a lad" you got Match of the day, The Big Match/Soccer Sunday and Sportsnight and the FA Cup final was the only live footy.

It soon became easier to align oneself with one of the 'top' teams, especially with the introduction of merchandising (or "rosettes" as it was called in my day) - Easy to 'support' a team that could regularly win things

Once that Faustian pact was struck, a paradigm shift in the demographic of the 'small town' football fan base was only a matter of time.

Does that help Pumbaa ?

[reeves4england]

embourgeoisement

Fuck me, I can't compete with that. Even neville might struggle....

Now, what the hell does it mean?

Posh cunts taking over the countryside  

surely posh cunts were already in the countryside?! or have posh cunts replaced the not so posh cunts?!

Posh cunts have moved out there, less and less people are farmers, people who would have been farmers now have qualifications and are employed in service sector jobs...so yeh you were kinda right!

[Lumps]

Fuck me! Am I meant to take from that that Calne has been gentrified?

I remember it being like a dodgy council estate in the middle of nowhere acommodating the workers from the local pork pie factory.

[redbullzeye]

embourgeoisement

Fuck me, I can't compete with that. Even neville might struggle....

Now, what the hell does it mean?

Posh cunts taking over the countryside  

surely posh cunts were already in the countryside?! or have posh cunts replaced the not so posh cunts?!

Actually that's a fair point - perhaps it should be not so posh cunts who are now replacing the posh cunts as they've mortgaged their property as security against loans to football clubs.  Either way it sounds more vivid than cracking on about middle-class white collar sprawl

[reeves4england]

Fuck me! Am I meant to take from that that Calne has been gentrified?

I remember it being like a dodgy council estate in the middle of nowhere acommodating the workers from the local pork pie factory.

I wouldn't say gentrified! It's got some ok ares in it now though. For housing. Not much else though!

[neville w]

ok, on the back of a promotion season, moving up a division started the season well.....attendences shouldnt drop after that. Infact quite the opposite...

Or you could flat out be wrong.

1) As pointed out earlier, we've only had one large away following (Rovers) so far

2) Last season's average was boosted by a number of high profile end of season games as promotion beckoned

3) A likely high attendance game (Yeovil) televised - lower crowd

4) General disgruntlement at the off field activities compared to a relatively (after Wise left) trouble free season

5) A steady rather that spectacular start this season (Last season's unbeaten start under high profile management would have boosted things, as would Ince's brief appearance)

[Reg Smeeton]

embourgeoisement

However, I'd also add access to live televised football as being one of the main factors in falling attendances.  "when I were a lad" you got Match of the day, The Big Match/Soccer Sunday and Sportsnight and the FA Cup final was the only live footy.

It soon became easier to align oneself with one of the 'top' teams, especially with the introduction of merchandising (or "rosettes" as it was called in my day) - Easy to 'support' a team that could regularly win things

Once that Faustian pact was struck, a paradigm shift in the demographic of the 'small town' football fan base was only a matter of time.

Does that help Pumbaa ?

  The TV thing doesn't really stack up though.....STFC's gates dropped off through the 70's into 80's when there was still little live TV.....gates in general have risen since Sky got going in the 90's, obviously for the top flight.....but even a side like Rochdale who  have defined  basement league football in that time, now get a higher average than immediately pre Sky.

[neville w]

embourgeoisement

However, I'd also add access to live televised football as being one of the main factors in falling attendances.  "when I were a lad" you got Match of the day, The Big Match/Soccer Sunday and Sportsnight and the FA Cup final was the only live footy.

It soon became easier to align oneself with one of the 'top' teams, especially with the introduction of merchandising (or "rosettes" as it was called in my day) - Easy to 'support' a team that could regularly win things

Once that Faustian pact was struck, a paradigm shift in the demographic of the 'small town' football fan base was only a matter of time.

Does that help Pumbaa ?

  The TV thing doesn't really stack up though.....STFC's gates dropped off through the 70's into 80's when there was still little live TV.....gates in general have risen since Sky got going in the 90's, obviously for the top flight.....but even a side like Rochdale who  have defined  basement league football in that time, now get a higher average than immediately pre Sky.

You've got a point Reg, I hardly followed them at all in the late seventies as I was out of the area, but it was hardly our finest time. I just seem to remember that the introduction of live games in the eighties was such a big deal at the time.

By the time we did start to get some league sucess again under Macari, I'd say there were generally more leisure pursuits available to the general population. However, I think that most sides not in with a shout of Premier league football struggle more with the explosion of televised matches and media coverage of the"glamour" clubs.

I can't explain the Rochdale phenomenon though, unless the bottom division has become more regionalised in recent years (seemed like it last year)

[Reg Smeeton]

As I said Nev....average gates have tended to rise for most clubs during the TV boom time....we might be an exception to the rule.

    Even teh scum who have dropped from the second tier to non league, probabaly had a higher average last season than they did in 91.

   Some clubs have increased quite spectacularly during that time with a bit of success.

   Our gates under Macari are not reliable...it used to be a standing joke, when the crowd was announced, as most felt there were more there.

[Christy]

Also when taking crowd sizes into account for teh midish 80's, it needs to be remembered that crowd sizes were systematically downgraded as a way of tax avoidance., so the data is unreliable.

Our gates under Macari are not reliable...it used to be a standing joke, when the crowd was announced, as most felt there were more there.

I think there may be a whiff of urban myth about this.  Take the Chester promotion game as an example, for years I'd subscribed to the "12,500? you're taking the piss, 18,000 more like" view.....but unfortunately the telly pictures don't lie, unless thousands nipped off for a wagon wheel at the same time.  

Same as the outrage for the youth cup game against Newcastle this year.  Crooks!  If you really think there were more than 2,500 there, look at the highlights and the vast empty areas of the Arkells....

I'm certain that the Pox do quite the opposite: inflate the numbers as part of their 'giants of obscure mediocrity' complex.

Whatever, I do sometimes lie awake wondering whether the supposed 14,000 v Bournemouth in 87 was simply plucked out of the air.

[sonic youth]

Whatever, I do sometimes lie awake wondering whether the supposed 14,000 v Bournemouth in 87 was simply plucked out of the air.

strange man.

my suggestion would be that football is now more accessible for families, whereas once you might just get a middle-aged man attending games on his own it's now far more likely that they might take children along (preferably their own, but you never know).

oh and them womens watch football now, so that's a possible 50% increase

[Christy]

My suggestion would be that you're talking arse, but that might be difficult to prove.

Indeed, as Rogan Taylor hilariously wrote in his essay 'Walking alone together: football supporters and their relationship with the game'...

"it is easier to discover the conditions of the drains in Oldham in the late nineteenth century than to find out who went to football matches then."

[pumbaa]

That's my final contribution to this thread. Although I have learned something today, so all is well.

[Phil_S]

I still think my point about Brissle Wovers stands. The size of the two places is immaterial as the comparison is made against last seasons gates. I know they have had two high profile games, but we have also had the Yeovil & Wovers games. (Granted not the same as Forest & Leeds).
My main contention is though that the current incompetency in the board room,  has had a real impact on the crowd size this season. Certainly there is anecdotal proof of this just on this message board.
If the board are costing us a thousand on each home gate, that equates to approx £450,000 in a season.
Then there is the other income to consider. Certainly thos enot attending are not buying food & programmes, but in addition a good number of those who DO attend, don't either.
Finally there is the fall in sponsorship, etc. How many fans have stopped spending extra on sponsorship packages ? What is the fall in corporate sponsorship. ? You only have to look around the ground to get an idea of the answer to the lats one.
Would it be going too far to say that this current bunch of incompetents are costing the club approx £1,000,000 per season in lost revenue. (That's in addition to the fact that they don't correctly manage the money they DO get. (Admin = £1.5 million)

[gasha1]

The biggest "gate fiddle" of all time was the promotion showdown v Bournemouth in April 1987. The official gate was 14,000 but most people regard the true gate as around 25,000. Which had been the CG's capacity prior a few years before. I was there that day, and it was close to being dangerously overcrowded in the Town End. As in other parts of the ground including the away end.

A few weeks later we played Gillingham in the playoffs when the gate was again 14,000 but as this game was all-ticket it really was about 14,000.

And you could see on TV as well as if you were there, it was nowhere near as packed.

I assume Hillier was fiddling the figures for tax purposes. Either that or else, post-Hysel he was afraid of punishment for exceeding the new restricted capacity.