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80% => The Nevillew General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: tans on Sunday, July 3, 2022, 21:47:19



Title: New car
Post by: tans on Sunday, July 3, 2022, 21:47:19
Anyone ordered a new car recently?

Off on long term sick at the moment and decided to do some retail therapy and order a new car. A new Corsa GS Line.

6 months minimum until delivery!

Anyone else had the same?


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Jimmy HaveHave on Sunday, July 3, 2022, 21:51:57
Hope you're on the right road to recovery.
I can remember JJ posting a few months ago that he had placed an order for a new car with a similar lead time if not longer.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Pookemon on Monday, July 4, 2022, 06:10:16
Anyone ordered a new car recently?

Off on long term sick at the moment and decided to do some retail therapy and order a new car. A new Corsa GS Line.

6 months minimum until delivery!

Anyone else had the same?

Global chip shortage, not the fried version.

Certain types of chips are unavailable and most cars use the same ones.   Better off buying a car from stock.  Might not be exactly what you want but can always get seats etc swapped and get it in a week or 2


Title: Re: New car
Post by: DiV on Monday, July 4, 2022, 06:14:41
Someone at work has ordered a Mini and his time of delivery has been put back by several months several times.

Think it’ll close to a year between ordering it and receiving it - if it is t delayed any further…


Title: Re: New car
Post by: mexico red on Monday, July 4, 2022, 06:45:40
Bought a Kia niro hybrid in may, took 6 days


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Sippo on Monday, July 4, 2022, 06:54:31
I have ordered a Cupra Born. Six months minimum. Annoying thing is that they have some in the dealer as stock. Cannot work it out!


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Samdy Gray on Monday, July 4, 2022, 07:57:13
Not car, but bike. Picked it up from the dealer within a week as it was already sat in the showroom.

Depends whether you're buying from stock, or buying a build slot.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: mystical_goat on Monday, July 4, 2022, 08:44:07
I heard the chip thing is being resolved in the next couple of months?

A colleague got a brand new Vauxhall Mokka on Thursday after their previous lease was about to end.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, July 4, 2022, 09:06:52
Ordered my new Vauxhall Grandland Ultimate back on 2nd feb, its still not gone into production yet, I have been told to expect a full year from order until delivery.

Vauxhall give you daily updates of where it is in the factory, currently I have been allocated a VIN number but its not even in production, which will be 12 weeks + and extra 4 weeks as its an Ultimate + 10 weeks as its an automatic, hence delivery around Fenruary at the earlier I have been told.

Its a fucking joke as the chip shortage is pretty much back to normal now.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: 4D on Monday, July 4, 2022, 09:14:25
Why do people buy new cars?  :sherlock:


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, July 4, 2022, 09:45:28
Why do people buy new cars?  :sherlock:
Because they are better than old cars? :D


Title: New car
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 4, 2022, 09:47:52
debatable

yeah but brand new cars. I guess because it makes you feel good, and for peace of mind warranty.

or you are in PCP or whatever and the cost to replace isn't a big wedge in one go


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, July 4, 2022, 09:53:25
My last 6 cars have been brand new and they are all better than any used car I have had. Never had a single failure or breakdown with any. HTH.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: tans on Monday, July 4, 2022, 09:56:31
My current car is on PCP and had a year to go, so i thought i would trade it in earlier as there would be more equity on it. There was £1500 equity, i put down £750 and i because i work for the feds got another £1500 off.

None of my type in stock at the moment so have to wait for it to be built, unless they can stock match it from an order that has fallen through.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, July 4, 2022, 10:01:02
None of my type in stock at the moment so have to wait for it to be built, unless they can stock match it from an order that has fallen through.
This was my hope as the sister in law got a brand new Vauxhall Crossland in January and managed to get a fallen through order and she had a brand new unregistered car on her doorstep in 3 weeks. She couldnt choose the colour as she wanted blue but got grey, she was happy with that though.

I was not so luckiy.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 4, 2022, 10:11:18
My last 6 cars have been brand new and they are all better than any used car I have had. Never had a single failure or breakdown with any. HTH.

Yeah, but were they better than an 18 month old car that has been whacked by depreciation?

I'm just annoyed I can't afford £20-30K on a new car (looked at PCP pre covid but 20K annual mileage killed it).


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, July 4, 2022, 10:12:35
Yeah, but were they better than an 18 month old car that has been whacked by depreciation?

I'm just annoyed I can't afford £20-30K on a new car (looked at PCP pre covid but 20K annual mileage killed it).
For me yes as mine are lease cars.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: 4D on Monday, July 4, 2022, 10:23:41
Paying monthly equates to depreciation  :D

Cars will have/won't have problems new or old. HTH.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Monday, July 4, 2022, 10:28:03
Paying monthly equates to depreciation  :D

Cars will have/won't have problems new or old. HTH.

Not when its motability it doesn't.

6 brand new cars in the last 16 years, not one breakdown or recovery. HTH.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Batch on Monday, July 4, 2022, 10:45:40
Quote from: 4D
Paying monthly equates to depreciation  :D
.

yeah but you don't need the capital up front.

I can see the attraction


Title: Re: New car
Post by: 4D on Monday, July 4, 2022, 11:26:15
yeah but you don't need the capital up front.

I can see the attraction

I bought a car 2 and a half years ago and sold it recently for £500 less than I paid for it. No faults etc at all. So £16 a month ain't too bad  :)
I don't do credit either.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: DiV on Monday, July 4, 2022, 11:42:53
I bought an ex motability car.

It was 6 months old and had 77 miles on the clock.

Practically brand new and had already lost 7k in value just be being driven off the forecourt. Not a car expert in the slightest but seemed like a win in my book.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: horlock07 on Monday, July 4, 2022, 11:58:17
Car market is all over the place compared to how it worked traditionally, I know my FiL was looking to buy a Ford Puma earlier this year and at one stage the dealer (with trade in's etc) was offering him a new stock one for a cheaper price that the second hand nearly new one he eventually purchased.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: @MacPhlea on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 06:04:38
Why do people buy new cars?  :sherlock:
Classic cars aside and pre-chip shortage, all cars depreciate over time.

A second-hand car will always depreciate less because they don’t carry the burden of VAT like a brand new car (which you lose the minute you drive it off the forecourt if you pay cash for it.

Leasing cars (leasing, not PCP) however, has changed the depreciation profile of new cars and the way that manufacturers can sell cars at low prices without affecting the value of dealer stock.

With leasing, you’re paying for a ‘product as a service’ and was originally designed for fleet/business users to get volumes of vehicles without massive capital outlay.  Some manufacturers insisted that these deals were for businesses only, but others realised it was a genuine route to market for people who were prepared to never own the car just use and return it.

Granted, leasing isn’t always cheaper than buying a second-hand car for cash because the depreciation over time will be lower BUT if you compare a brand new lease car vs a second-hand car on tick it will be cheaper because they are based on depreciation of the asset plus interest and the deposit can be lower because the leasing company can reclaim the VAT (which is the biggest part of depreciation in the first two years.

As an examples I leased an Mercedes AMG  SLK for 6+23 - it was a 32k car and I paid £1100 deposit and £198 a month which means I paid just over £5600 for two years worry free driving. I kept my cash in my account and paid less than I would have lost had I bought it secondhand with depreciation.

The rule of thumb for me is to look for cars where the monthly payment of a two year deal is cheaper than the same car on a three year deal as this generally means the lease is being subsidised by the manufacturer.  These types deals are normally found on brand new models where they want to get them seen on the road shortly after launch (Mercedes and Nissan do this a lot).  Also, cheaper cars don’t always mean cheaper lease - it’s all about the depreciation which is why it can be cheaper to lease a £40k Mercedes than a £20k Ford.


HTTPS://leasing.com is a great site these days as it gives you the true cost of ownership on lease for any new car




Title: Re: New car
Post by: Sippo on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 06:45:35
I recently sold my 2017 330e, and I made £55 profit over the year. Sold it for more than I paid.

In it's replacement I bought a golf GTI for £5.5k. It's mint, and I am hoping the price will rise.

Older cars are great aslong as they have full service history and have been looked after. This is key.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: theakston2k on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 12:03:02
Why do people buy new cars?  :sherlock:
I’ve had my car from new in 2017 and it has been faultless and still has all the up to date tech on it. In the mean time I’ve seen friends get through second hand cars like no tomorrow so it all depends on how long you want to keep a car. Looking at the current trade in prices it has probably cost me £7k or £8k a year in depreciation and I can live with that as that kind of money is pretty easy to waste in the second hand market without warranties and what not.

I’m in the process of ordering a new one but it’s going to be a years wait as only just been released which is nuts but is what it is, I just like the security of a new car.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 12:33:49
I’ve had my car from new in 2017 and it has been faultless and still has all the up to date tech on it. In the mean time I’ve seen friends get through second hand cars like no tomorrow so it all depends on how long you want to keep a car. Looking at the current trade in prices it has probably cost me £7k or £8k a year in depreciation and I can live with that as that kind of money is pretty easy to waste in the second hand market without warranties and what not.

I’m in the process of ordering a new one but it’s going to be a years wait as only just been released which is nuts but is what it is, I just like the security of a new car.
Hopefully the wait will be worth it mate.

I like the new technology with new cars, the new Grandland has 360 cameras, self park, night vision cameras, fully customizable dashboard dials etc but most of all I picked mine as its higher off the floor and easier to get into and has a huge boot.

If I was buying 2nd hand I would buy another Hyundai Hybrid Ioniq but wouldn't buy one brand new with my own money as the build quality is really poor since the day it came out of the factory. Constant rattles from the parcel shelf and trim wearing out in under a year. 2nd hand though would be a great buy.

A year wait is ridiculous but it is what it is, my mate ordered the same car as me back in September and still hasn't got his yet so I fear a year delivery will be the norm for a while.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: mystical_goat on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 15:52:11
If you order a new car and then find out that a 3 month wait has become 12, can you cancel the order at no cost? I guess if it all goes to schedule but when it turns up at the dealership you change your mind, it's still yours?

When the chip shortage kicked in, Mini had loads of people who'd ordered the Harmon-Kardon stereo upgrade but they could no longer provide it. I think they offered a cancel it/reduced price option. Suspect there may be a few slightly lower-specced new cars than usual sitting on forecourts because of this.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Milmo on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 15:52:18
Hopefully the wait will be worth it mate.

I like the new technology with new cars, the new Grandland has 360 cameras, self park, night vision cameras, fully customizable dashboard dials etc but most of all I picked mine as its higher off the floor and easier to get into and has a huge boot.

If I was buying 2nd hand I would buy another Hyundai Hybrid Ioniq but wouldn't buy one brand new with my own money as the build quality is really poor since the day it came out of the factory. Constant rattles from the parcel shelf and trim wearing out in under a year. 2nd hand though would be a great buy.

A year wait is ridiculous but it is what it is, my mate ordered the same car as me back in September and still hasn't got his yet so I fear a year delivery will be the norm for a while.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: stfcjack on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 16:21:23
My car was written off this weekend in an accident (wasn't my fault). Was a cracking little car, never let me down but was 10 years old so was never going to get a great pay out from the insurance company. Leaves me with not much time to find a new car on a relatively small budget. Obviously used car market is not fantastic for buyers at the moment. Would any one have any advice whether to go down the leasing, financing, cash route? Some good points made above so I have noted them.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: @MacPhlea on Tuesday, July 5, 2022, 22:09:42
If you order a new car and then find out that a 3 month wait has become 12, can you cancel the order at no cost? I guess if it all goes to schedule but when it turns up at the dealership you change your mind, it's still yours?

When the chip shortage kicked in, Mini had loads of people who'd ordered the Harmon-Kardon stereo upgrade but they could no longer provide it. I think they offered a cancel it/reduced price option. Suspect there may be a few slightly lower-specced new cars than usual sitting on forecourts because of this.
On lease you normally don’t pay any deposit until the car arrives


Title: Re: New car
Post by: JBZ on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 20:11:38
Just had the use of a Taycan 4s.  Unlikely to buy one.

___________________

Is it June or late September
Is it 1993
Could you help me to remember
Is this how I'm supposed to be

Sometimes I think the pain blows my mind
Pain blows my mind.

Did you ever get those cigarettes
And did you get anything for me
Will you help me to remember
When I fall into the sea.

Sometimes I think the pain blows my mind
Pain blows my mind.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: @MacPhlea on Wednesday, July 6, 2022, 22:20:52
Just had the use of a Taycan 4s.  Unlikely to buy one.

___________________

Is it June or late September
Is it 1993
Could you help me to remember
Is this how I'm supposed to be

Sometimes I think the pain blows my mind
Pain blows my mind.

Did you ever get those cigarettes
And did you get anything for me
Will you help me to remember
When I fall into the sea.

Sometimes I think the pain blows my mind
Pain blows my mind.
I have an Etron sportback which is due to be replaced in the next 8 months or so… was considering the taycan sport turismo GTS but the option price list is mental… will probably wait for the RS6 etron in about 18months time…


Title: Re: New car
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, February 3, 2023, 18:19:27
Not a new car query but Mrs Audrey wants a largish estate car for lugging furniture about when we get back - she’s into this upcycling lark.

I’ve seen a Mondeo estate for her at a good price but is a Cat C repaired motor. Does anyone know if insurance is hugely more expensive for a Cat C?


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 09:38:44
Without wanting to start a political discussion - does anyone own an electric/Hybrid car?

We've been offered a salary sacrifice type benefit through work where I can lease a new electric vehicle (though a company called Tusker) and it covers all costs, tax, MOT, servicing, parts etc all covered. Also the installation of the electric charger yoke is all covered. Clearly it's a handy tax break so it peaked my interest.

My main concern is that we drive across to the West of Ireland a few times a year and I am not sure the infrastructure over there is anywhere near as good as it is in the rest of the UK. Just interested in feedback from people that might have experiences.

Thanks.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 09:46:35
Without wanting to start a political discussion - does anyone own an electric/Hybrid car?

We've been offered a salary sacrifice type benefit through work where I can lease a new electric vehicle (though a company called Tusker) and it covers all costs, tax, MOT, servicing, parts etc all covered. Also the installation of the electric charger yoke is all covered. Clearly it's a handy tax break so it peaked my interest.

My main concern is that we drive across to the West of Ireland a few times a year and I am not sure the infrastructure over there is anywhere near as good as it is in the rest of the UK. Just interested in feedback from people that might have experiences.

Thanks.
My last car was an Ioniq hybrid, great car, lovely engine shit build quality from new, rattled and creaked from the 1st mile to the 50,000th.

Mine was a self charging so the best of both worlds and LEZ and congestion charge exempt too. Used to average about 75mpg on a run easily.

Personally I would not get a full plug in as the infrastructure is not there yet (if ever) and also the range is way lower than they say, we had considered it but we cannot have a charger installed at home due to being a housing association house and without driveway parking.

I have a few mates with full electric and they say they will never buy another...well for the time being anyway, expect about 250 miles on a full charge and a 35 to 45 min charge to top up to 90%, this all has to be factored in.

I would definately go non plug un hybrid again and although I got a brand new diesel Grandland this time I would happily go self charge hybrid again.

The other thing to watch out for though....the quieteness, expect people to walk out in front of you at ANY time without looking because they dont hear a car they dont look, you have been warned!


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Nemo on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 10:11:47
My in-laws have a Hyundai Kona which does ~250 miles on a charge, they live in rural Wales so the infrastructure is hardly stellar but do charge at home, they seem to be very happy with it.

I believe electric car insurance has gone even more mental than normal car insurance mind, so do check that before you get stung!

Can't tell you much about the infrastructure in Ireland though!


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 10:28:51
I have full electric and for my situation I wouldn't go back at the moment, but it depends on your situation.  If you regularly drive more miles than the charge gives you then you should consider Hybrid (i have had hybrid as well).

If you are in a situation (as I am) where the majority of time you can charge from home and that covers "most" of your journeys then I definitely recommend it, especially if you are getting tax breaks and all of the infrastructure is paid for (i had to pay for my own home charger, which cost me around a grand).

I travel over my charge total maybe once or twice every 2 or 3 months and only in England, so the full electric works for me and I am so much better off financially (at the current time) with it.  If I started doing more regular over 250 mile round trips then I might consider converting back (probably to Hybrid).  And it depends on which Electric car you go for, I went for a more high end electric and the car gives me everything I want, buy a low end electric and you will likely be disapointed.

Most of the people that slag off electic cars have never owned and lived with one, stuck in the mould, and I get that.  There is still a lot of stuff to work out with electric, and we are still not in my ideal place with regards to infractructure in the UK, but for me not having to go to the petrol station at least once a week and spending £70 a pop to fill up my car easily negates the small challenge that I have of perhaps having to sit for 45 mins once or twice every 2 or 3 months to charge up my car.

If I wanted to go on a driving holiday aroiund the UK/Ireland - I will just hire a car to avoid having to plan charging and waiting for charge times etc. and i had as many people walk out in front of me when i was driving a diesel as I do when driving an electric - that is a people problem not an electric problem.

Lots of words, but the short answer is, does it work for you based on the regular travel that you do, if it doesn't, go Hybrid and take some tax breaks, if it does, go electric, get full tax breaks and all of the associated benefits that go with it.  Don't listen to the naysayers that have never owned an electric car, I watched a lot of review videos and did my homework on the reality before switching, and in the current climate am glad I did, that's not to say that I won't switch back if the situation changes.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Bob's Orange on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 10:37:42
Thanks all for the input - much appreciated.

Nemo - the car insurance is also included for both myself and Mrs Bob, I negated to include that in the list of costs on my OP. the only think I'm a bit unsure of is the Benefit in Kind tax, which is 2% on pure electric vehicles and increasing by 1% each year until April 2028. I need to read up on this but it's all included in the salary sacrificed amount.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Peter Venkman on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 10:49:45
i had as many people walk out in front of me when i was driving a diesel as I do when driving an electric - that is a people problem not an electric problem.
You are very lucky mate. I had my Hybrid for 4 years and I never drove it in town without someone walkign out in front of me, and I mean literally in front of me, since I have been back with diesel in March I have not had a single one do it in the same situation.

So much so that I had to get a dashcam fitted 5 years ago in case I needed proof if someone actually made contact with me so I had visible proof.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 11:08:05
You are very lucky mate. I had my Hybrid for 4 years and I never drove it in town without someone walkign out in front of me, and I mean literally in front of me, since I have been back with diesel in March I have not had a single one do it in the same situation.

So much so that I had to get a dashcam fitted 5 years ago in case I needed proof if someone actually made contact with me so I had visible proof.

Still a people problem though, looking left and right (instead of at your phone) is the same irrelevant of whether the cars are noisy or not - it's not like pushbikes have ever made any noise :)


Title: Re: New car
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 11:42:02
Wouldn’t it be ironic if you ran over one of those Just Stop Oil twats.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:00:08
I've got a 2016 Mitsubishi Outlander plug in hybrid. It's fucking ace, I love it. I also have solar panels so in the summer it is essentially free fuel. 95% on my driving is round town which is all electric, if I have to go further it's got a 2.0l petrol engine which supposedly does about 160 mpg. In reality, this time of year, I'm filling it up every 5 - 6 weeks at a cost of about £50.

I got this second hand for about £12k I think. Next car will hopefully be a full electric depending on 2nd hand prices in about 5 years.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: jayohaitchenn on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:01:22
Oh, and tax is £zero.

Very economical car to drive.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:02:04
I have a 240bhp fiesta, bollocks to getting a sensible car.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Berniman on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:13:51
I have a 240bhp fiesta, bollocks to getting a sensible car.

Not that I am bothered about the BHP of a car, but have you driven an electric car in Sport mode?  Anything but sensible, trust me..


Title: Re: New car
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:35:38
Not that I am bothered about the BHP of a car, but have you driven an electric car in Sport mode?  Anything but sensible, trust me..

But it won't handle or sound like mine  ;) My car does 30 to 70 in the same time as a tesla 3 too  :)


Title: Re: New car
Post by: swindonmaniac on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:52:18
But it won't handle or sound like mine  ;) My car does 30 to 70 in the same time as a tesla 3 too  :)
As long as you pedal like fuck.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 12:56:48
My mate in Kefalonia has a VW ID3. That goes like stink when he floors it.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Sippo on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 16:06:53
I have a Cupra Born V2 (V1 is less specced). I used to have home charging, but now use a 50p KWH charger provided in allocated parking. Costs me £26 for around 220 miles.

Mine is through a lease, like Tusker. It costs me £360 a month for 8k miles per year and has everything included such as maintenance, servicing and insurance.

Do I love it no. Is it fast - yes. It's great on country roads, it's great around town.

I am a petrol head and prefer a stick and noise. I would love to get a 2nd car at somepoint. Will probably stay electric now as much cheaper to run.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 16:22:28
What did home charging cost?


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Sippo on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 16:25:35
Home charging was about £15.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: horlock07 on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 16:26:50
But it won't handle or sound like mine  ;) My car does 30 to 70 in the same time as a tesla 3 too  :)

Its still Fiesta though isn't it....


Title: Re: New car
Post by: 4D on Tuesday, November 14, 2023, 16:33:06
Its still Fiesta though isn't it....

Great little car. Runs rings around some of the snobby brands  ;)


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Bob's Orange on Wednesday, November 15, 2023, 08:40:03
I have a Cupra Born V2 (V1 is less specced). I used to have home charging, but now use a 50p KWH charger provided in allocated parking. Costs me £26 for around 220 miles.

Mine is through a lease, like Tusker. It costs me £360 a month for 8k miles per year and has everything included such as maintenance, servicing and insurance.

Do I love it no. Is it fast - yes. It's great on country roads, it's great around town.

I am a petrol head and prefer a stick and noise. I would love to get a 2nd car at somepoint. Will probably stay electric now as much cheaper to run.

Thanks Sippo. I really like the look of the Cupra Born. I didn't see it in the list of available cars sadly. Appreciate the info on the charging cost also.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: Sippo on Friday, December 1, 2023, 21:16:44
Just a word of warning. My mi/kWh has dropped to 2.4 this week due to the weather. It's usually 4 mi/kWh. Batteries do not like the cold.


Title: Re: New car
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known as Audrey on Friday, December 1, 2023, 21:43:55
Same as heat pumps, then.