Thetownend.com

Probably deserves it'd own thread

https://www.thefa.com/news/2021/apr/07/intermediary-regulations-breaches-070421

yeah, own thread is fair enough.

what are the possible punishments?

Come on then, anyone know the likely punishment

Points deduction?

We have to put Kovar in goals for the remaining games.

We have to attend games

bit extreme

 :clap:

Unlikely maybe, but this is surely the type of thing that could see us thrown out of the football league?

There's a club statement AND IT'S NOT 5PM OR FRIDAY

https://www.swindontownfc.co.uk/news/2021/april/statement-club-response-to-fa-charge/

This is what they're' allegedly' in breach of:

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/policies/intermediaries/regulation-and-forms#:~:text=The%20FA%20regulations%20on%20working%20with%20intermediaries%20state%20that%20all,via%20The%20FA%20clearing%20house.


Clearinghouse payments

The FA regulations on working with intermediaries state that all payments (payments made as net salary deductions are exempt) made by a club to an intermediary in relation to a transaction are required to be made via The FA clearing house.

Payments to clubs belonging to other national associations in respect of transfer fees, solidarity and training compensation are also required to be made via The FA clearing house.

When a payment is made to The FA, the payment instruction form below must be completed detailing who the payment is for, what it is in relation to and the bank details for the beneficiary.

When a player is transferred between two clubs in different countries, 5% of the transfer fee paid is due as solidarity to the clubs who trained the player between the ages of 12 and 23. The calculator below can help to determine the amount due to these clubs. A completed version must be submitted whenever a solidarity payment is made via The FA clearing house.

I'm not sure this is even the same thing as the court stuff. I was wondering how we could be charged without the court having come to a conclusion yet.

Statement?

It’s the Final Countdown.

Power kicked out of football. But it's what they do to the club that concerns us more

Well, if irregular payments to players was deemed to be serious enough for us to be demoted, I’d imagine underhand payments to the club will likely carry a similar punishment.

Could somebody try and find out what the possible punishments actually are, as opposed to random guesses?

I did try but could find nothing.

maybe this time we'll employ lawyers that will fight the case, rather than bend over and take it up the arse

(see chesterfield, spurs)

You can just here the swindle chants around the grounds again once crowds are allowed back in!

fair point. running a blank here too

No clue, and no obvious precedent.

Ultimate punishment is having your EFL membership revoked, having effectively in breach for almost a decade I would think they'd be looking at that as not only have we done it we've been hiding it. There's not really a precedent other than the West Ham vs Sheff United Tevez debacle and that was something like a £25m fine.

Fuck me, what a season  :badmood:

Can someone put it in thicko terms what we are supposed to have done?

Let's hope it's not another Luton Town -30 points

Been a long time coming with this owner, let’s see what the damage is. Whatever happens, we will always support Swindon, the sooner power is gone the better.

Personally I can't see how this wouldn't carry a harsher penalty than for going into Admin....

He never fails to let us down

Once one of the mainstream sites - BBC, Sky etc have time to put up an article -  in between reporting on all the footballers being racially abused online -  I suspect we may know more about possible punishments.

Or perhaps the Adver might give us some news?

Swindon Town Football Club were made aware of the FA charges this morning

Sounds like bullshit to me!

why Horlock?

So are they suggesting that payments to/from Standing were for Agent services or something with him acting as some sort of intermediary? Seems a bloody odd way of charging us.

They'll be waiting on us more like.

Considering how little regarding the Standing/Power relationship is in the public domain they cannot of based this purely on that, which suggests to me that the club have been co-operating with (or obstructing) an ongoing FA investigation and would have known what was in the post.

You would imagine the club (in the form of an Email or official letter) would have been made aware before this was published.

Clutching at straws they only have 2 weeks to respond which hopefully will bring things to a head one way or the other!

I think it's more likely to be this isn't it?


Restriction on Conflict of Interest
4.      
An Intermediary, any individual or legal person with an interest in an Intermediary’s Organisation or an Intermediary’s Organisation shall not have an interest in a Club. Similarly, a Player, Club, Club Official, Manager or any individual or entity with an interest in a Club shall not have any interest in the business or affairs of an Intermediary or an Intermediary’s Organisation. Such interest shall be defined as:
a. beneficial ownership of more than 5% of any entity, firm or company through which the activities of the Club or Intermediary (as applicable) are conducted
and/ or
b. being in a position or having any association that may enable the exercise of a material,financial, commercial, administrative, managerial or any other influence over the affairs of the Club or Intermediary (as applicable) whether directly or indirectly and whether formally or informally.


https://www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thefaportal/governance-docs/agents/intermediaries/the-fa-working-with-intermediaries-regulations-2020-21.ashx

And further down in the PDF it sets out the mechanism for punishment of breaches

"Any breach of these Regulations shall be Misconduct in accordance with Rule E1.1. Any charge for Misconduct shall be dealt with in accordance with the Rules of The Association and shall be determined by a Regulatory Commission of The Association"

So there is no fixed penalty, it is determined by a panel.

The punishment will be a 5 year extended contract for Sheridactyly that cannot be cancelled.
The end.

Ha. Any minute now there will be a report on the adver site ending with;

'possible punishments include Swindon Town being forced to play Matej Kovar in goal for the remaining games this season or Season Ticket holders being forced to watch the remaining home games at the County Ground. The Adver is waiting for further comment from Lee Power and representatives from Swindon Town Football Club but can report what looks like a pig shaped projectile in the distance floating over the Magic Roundabout'

Of course they would, they would have to have been.

Makes more sense, albeit once this went to Court (and entered the public domain) how was Power expecting to wriggle out of it, makes his Barry rather than Standing defence (rather than just settling OOC to keep it quiet) even more nonsensical.

ah, I see.

yes I guess they may have suspected it was coming but only received official notification this morning.

don't worry, I'm sure Steve 'i am a real person' Anderson was on top of it

I assume insofar as they have charged Standing rather than Gary Barry, the FA (or at least their legal advisors) have concluded that Powers 'it was Barry's money' case is bullshit. I wonder whether something has happened in the court case which has not reached the public domain yet, otherwise there is the potential for this to prejudice that case as it basically directly contradicts Powers case!

Is this likely to be power doing deals on / moving around transfer money in a way he’s not supposed to have? There’s some stuff about transfer fees which seems to be against the way I’ve understood stuff like basing income on sell on causes which we may or may not have done?

I mean fuck knows . Honestly don’t have the energy to do a proper deep read at the moment 😔

You would imagine the FA want this resolved - and any punishment - this season, hence only giving 2 weeks to respond, giving it time for appeals as well.

Either way you would suspect a hefty punishment is coming our way, it surprises me that this has come before the court case though.

You would also imagine part of the punishment would be that Standing has to either cease having a controlling interest in the club or cease to be a football agent.

Imagine if crowds had been allowed at games - I think Power would be employing a van load of bodyguards - or not attended games

The concerning thing is, if we get a demotion as punishment (how ever long that takes to decide), and don't do enough in the league this season, we end up as a NL club next season.

There was us preparing ourselves for Barrow, we could be looking forward to many more different grounds than Barrow.

Or get a points deduction next season and spend a whole season thinking about non-league.......don't know which is worse to be fair.

The link I gave is the same link the FA gave in their original statement.

This is it in full:

Intermediaries regulations

The licensing system for agents ceased to exist on 1st April 2015 and was replaced by the concept of intermediaries in accordance with the FIFA regulations on working with intermediaries.

The FA regulations on working with intermediaries can be found in the resource section below, together with a set of guidance notes for both intermediaries and players.

Standard forms

This page also contains all the forms and information relating the declaration of intermediary activity in a transaction. To download any of these forms, please see the resource document section below.

The IM1-NR is required when no intermediary has been used by any party in the deal.

The IM1 form provides for declaration of all the intermediaries used in a deal and must be signed by all parties. Annex 1 declares the payments being made by the player to the intermediary and must be completed if the player has used an intermediary (even if no payment is being made to the intermediary). Annexes 2 and 3 must be completed in cases of dual (or multiple) representation and declare the payments being made by the registering club or former club (as applicable) to the intermediary.

The IM2 is required to be completed by all parties who wish to complete a transaction where there may be a (potential) conflict of interest. This is not required in cases of dual (or multiple) representation.

An FAQ document on the IM forms can also be found in the resources section.

Clearing house payments

The FA regulations on working with intermediaries state that all payments (payments made as net salary deductions are exempt) made by a club to an intermediary in relation to a transaction are required to be made via The FA clearing house.

Payments to clubs belonging to other national associations in respect of transfer fees, solidarity and training compensation are also required to be made via The FA clearing house.

When a payment is made to The FA, the payment instruction form below must be completed detailing who the payment is for, what it is in relation to and the bank details for the beneficiary.

When a player is transferred between two clubs in different countries, 5% of the transfer fee paid is due as solidarity to the clubs who trained the player between the ages of 12 and 23. The calculator below can help to determine the amount due to these clubs. A completed version must be submitted whenever a solidarity payment is made via The FA clearing house.

C'mon Duke - Focus!

I know. That's where I found the link to the full regulations which is the one I quoted from (and copied in the link). I'm not going to quote the full 15 page PDF in full though :)

Tenner says the charge is Rule E4 (conflict of interest) rather than illegal payments.

Is this the same Michael standing who played for the scum

I'll put 1p on it. (I might only have skimmed through it rather quickly as opposed to actually reading it)

2p. I'm a high roller.

As a guideline what punishment would a conflict of interest bring

I've had a quick search and can't find any precedent on punishment for breaches of rule E4. There's shitloads of agents breaching rule E1 (b) though. Hartlepool also got done for E1b and were fined £25k, but it's a completely separate rule so not at all relevant. Just thought I'd show I'd done some looking :)

Not clever enough to understand all of this and not got as much knowledge of the history of the club as many on here, but it raised a question in my mind - has any other club had as many shysters owning it in the last 40 years than Town?  There may be bigger shysters than the ones we have had, but fucking hell for sheer volume we don't half seem to attract them.

Nice ne Pauld appreciate you taking the time to look

TBF, Pompey were for a time owned by a Russian-Israeli organised crime syndicate. That takes some beating

I'm hoping the news broke in time for it to be included in tomorrow's Price of Football Podcast and they might have some idea. Although I'd treat anything they come up with with large pinches of salt as for an accountant Kieran Maguire can be quite fast and loose with the facts at times and has a nasty habit of answering a different question to the one asked.

He sounds like a politician😀

Kieran? She?

Its been a long day😀

:D

 :eek:

Just out if interest which owner was that?

Sent from my SM-A125F

His tweets and pieces are so riddled with rubbish that even a cursory Google rebuts I never know whether to believe a word he says.

Sent from my SM-A125F

And then they were owned by Ali Al-Faraj, a sheikh who didn't exist. Unless that's the time you meant!

No idea what to make of this really. Hopefully it hastens the end of Power.

As I said - I don't doubt there are bigger shysters out there who have owned clubs, but for sheer quantity of them we have had we must top the league.

It didn't take long😀

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/211800-swindle-in-deeper-shite/

maybe we attract a lower quality of shyster than others and they are more often found out?

Yes he was one of the front men.

Ah, yes, on sheer volume quite possibly.

Actually - you may have something there: "The Town Way"

Shite shysters?

Oysters

Owen Oyster?

Assume the FA powers are far greater than the FL so any form of punishment is possible

CLUB RESPONSE TO FA CHARGE

sponsored by dominoes pizza

Good statement from the Trust

https://truststfc.tv/truststfc-press-release-in-response-to-stfc-fa-charges/

:D

Just coincidence the NHRC decided to end their sponsorship the other day?

No mention of Gareth Barry either

Who were they?

I thought that Standing was involved with Barry, is that the connection?

Power well on the ropes now and cornered.
The safe is well and truly empty and won’t have any more gullible lenders to fall back on.
Can’t see this playing out until December and he will show his true colours.

I reckon he’ll get his lawyers to press the FA into putting the case on hold pending the outcome of the court case claiming that if the FA pass judgement they will be prejudicing a court hearing. We’ll just have another thing putting us in limbo hanging over the club!

I’m still failing to understand what rules have been broken. Some bloke has been putting money into the club. Why is that a no no?

can't see the FA being happy to do that. especially if punishment potentially affects the structure of the leagues

I assume he means NSBRC, the National Self Build & Renovation Centre who were one of the back of shirt sponsors this season

Conflict of interest.

Conflict of interest.

A “friend” of mine escaped a custodial sentence on a similar matter.
Was still found guilty mind you. lawyers can do all sorts of deals outside the court room.
I see this going the same way. Eye opening when you get into the facts.

Has the club benefited at all from this? No. We were in L1 when Power took over and haven’t progressed since. This isn’t like paying players outside of their contracts which did, indeed, give the club an unfair advantage.

How has this conflict of interest manifested itself on the playing side of the club?

Christ, we all know that some clubs are money laundering or that their owners are just a front for shadowy money backers.

It's a good job Graham Kelly isn't on the FA panel'

The rule is there to prevent agents from operating a club in their own financial interest. Whether it's a good rule or not is immaterial, it's part of the FA regulations and if you break them you risk being charged, same with any rules. And I'm sure you're right that there are probably plenty of other clubs that have done this and got away with it. But they weren't stupid enough to disclose the details of it in a publicly reported court case.

So, has Standing, as a football agent, placed any players with the club or facilitated the transfer of players out of the club for his own financial gain?

Seems to me all he’s done is lose a shit load of money. Would the charge be different or more/less severe if it was Standing or Barry that put the money in?

Can’t imagine the FA’s lawyers being happy with the potential legal ramifications of prejudicing a court case either. A mess...

That isn't really the point. The rule is what it is and if Standing has indeed put money into the club in return for an ownership stake or beneficial interest then that is forbidden under rule E4

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thefaportal/governance-docs/agents/intermediaries/the-fa-working-with-intermediaries-regulations-2020-21.ashx

As Shrivvy Road has pointed out on Twitter (and Flashheart on here earlier apparently), it may be that the FA charge is an indication that the case has been settled out of court.

I was wondering something along these lines. I think I mentioned it earlier.

OK. Thanks. In that case I can’t see how the charge is severe enough to warrant a points deduction.

Well, let's hope you're on the panel then!

In the fullness of time it will come out on who actually “owns” the club in financial terms.
Don’t forget a contract can still exist verbally and you only have to see that the Clem ownership issue was settled out of Court.
The “other” battle is likely to be an identical case but initially with more at stake. This Club is being financed by borrowed money. If you are willing to stick some money in I will get you a playing contract.

or that the court case outcome has no bearing on the charge.

I hope it's because it's settled though. It makes it more likely Power is sodding off.

Can go many ways.
Don’t forget our history. All depends on what the panel see fit on the day.
One thing guaranteed we are not a “well run” football club and when the drains get lifted this could expose some interesting facts.
Unfortunately as in most cases the real hurt is always subjected to the Supporters.

National Homebuild and Renovation Centre based over at Blagrove.

Power can’t last much longer.
Just hoping he is not “forced” in December and we don’t have to wait that long. Would be in his interest if his “legal representative” obtain a settlement and keeps the history under cover.
It’s a long time until December and the club still have bills to pay.
The recent news will have a severe impact on season ticket sales which are being held back. It’s going to be a case of holding onto your money and playing a time game.
Our biggest challenge currently is off the field.

I don't see how it can't.

In the words of bootlegger

“FUCK THIS SHIIIT”

I wonder what Digger has to say about it all? Also his offer to by the club recently may have been a harbinger of what has come out today.

I'm sure he'll ring someone up later and tell them :)

Digger?

I’m assuming he’s on about Clem, I don’t understand the Digger reference though haha

Digger, slang for an Aussie bloke.

Ahhh, gotcha cheers!

You fackin kidz know nuffink.

Ah, ripper.

 :D

but equally assuming a deal hasn't been done i don't see how the charges can be laid now.

I was thinking along very basic lines of recieving money from an agent bring against rules regardless of whether it was a loan or for shares.

I didn't give it much thought - like why wait until now to lay the charges.

Which side was power arguing on the shares / money again? Surely one side is arguing that they would have broken these fa rules in he court case ? Or something

Power said Barry leant the money not Standing. Which would still be against the rules, but it may be that in that instance only Barry would have done something wrong, not the club?

Several ex players as clients on the first pro management website

Wouldn’t this charge cover payments of transfers and sell on transfer monies to individuals not listed or ‘entitled’ under the proper mechanisms?

Wonder why the FA has acted now to bring this charge? To my knowledge the Standing conflict of interest thing has been in the public domain for at least six months. Is this just the legal process plodding along or has something new come to light?

I love the irony that First Touch Pro Management lists accountancy, financial, and legal advice as part of the their service offering on their website. Can you imagine asking part of the Lee Power clan for advice on anything that didn’t involve paying in wads of 50s, horses and duty free fags?

Perhaps the fa have been compiling their evidence over this time

What’s the reasoning behind both Power and STFC, individually, being in breach of this regulation? Is there a case that Power, as an individual, is in breach and the club is not?

Same goes for First Touch and Standing being named separately.

Anyone any idea when Standing stopped putting money into the club? Is it likely he financed last season’s promotion?

Has the club, on the pitch, benefited from this breach of regulations?

Standing stopped putting money in when power changed the login details to the clubs bank account and rightly so

Which was when? Same time as he locked Clem out?

I know its the sun, but

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/14577530/gareth-barry-fa-rap-swindon-stake/

He loaned the club £6m!   So yes the club benefitted on the pitch by being able to fund a team beyond it otherwise could have done.

That’s in theory no different to any other external person(s) providing extra funding.

It’s that fact that it’s a agent/player that’s the issue.

How many players have we bought/sold who were already on Standings books and have any of our players changed agents to Standing during their tenure here?

It’s quite difficult to make a case for why we shouldn’t have a hefty fine and a points deduction. Thanks Lee.  There goes the plan to have a clean slate next season - starting on -15 points, reducing our ability to recruit a decent manager or decent players. I suspect the “but he’s my fackin maaate wot gave me the cash” defence won’t get Del Boy out of this.

He's an agent who loaned the club £6m - he's not allowed to do that under FA rules so it is different to any other external person putting the cash in.

Audrey was asking how we benefitted on the pitch, which by implication would make a points deduction more likely.

It isn't. People have already been doing it.

I'm not saying there won't be a points deduction - I don't know what will happen - but it's actually rather easy to make a case for their not being a points deduction.

Yes, that's why they're all named separately. Any or all of them could be found to be in breach, separately or together, but that's unlikely, if one is guilty, it is likely all are. More importantly they can be punished separately - so the panel could throw the book at the individuals but give the corporate entities lighter punishments.

Fine and ban Barry, Standing and Power from being anywhere near a football club ever again. Force the fuckers to sell up and fuck off for good but I think this is what will relegate us...

No wonder Scott Twine hasn't signed anything yet!

Link to same article without contributing to their coffers
https://archive.fo/3N3LA

Two interesting points in that article (assuming it's all correct):
1) The part of the intermediaries regs they are being charged under is E4 (conflict of interest). That's 2p you owe me, FH!
2) Power claims Barry paid him the money direct into his personal and business accounts, not to the club, in order to cover up his involvement. If that does turn out to be true, or if that is how Standing paid him, or both, what a fucking idiot/pair of fucking idiots.

If Power's defence is that they were trying to cover it up, that's a bit of a concern.

About as good as our defence has been most of the year.

Perhaps I should say *credible* case. The lack of governance (at best) and intent to deceive (at worst) does not work in the club’s favour.

The fact that Power is prepared to throw everyone and the club under the bus shows we are in for a rough few months.Ideally we sell the club now and the FA deal with them separately and give us a fine.

That would be nice 

There wouldn't be much point in punishing the club as Power is clearly off soon. It would be the next incumbent that will suffer, not the person who's actually responsible. Not that that would stop the FA.

I know nothing about corporate law and fa about FA regulations.

Does anyone more knowledgeable however think the club may have a counter claim against Power for any losses arising from Power acting in breach of his fiduciary duty to the club, in particular for acting outside of its constitution?

This would be looking many steps ahead and may be something for a future owner to consider.  I am doubtful it would have any relevance on the FAs ability to punish the club.

It may not be the white knight in shining armour but I am hopeful that we, the supporters, will be in a much better position for the existence of the Trust.

I actually laughed when I seen this yesterday, it’s just another fuck up.

In other news Adam Wainwright had apparently left the club which is a shame.

The results this season suggest otherwise  :)

Indeed, the precedents aren't encouraging. A Luton fan pointed out to me last night that they were deducted 10 points when the new board came clean about underhand dealings by the old board. Punished for being honest. That was nearly 15 years ago though so maybe there has been an outbreak of common sense in the FA since (clutches desperately at straws)

He has yes, left month or so ago  >:( Be no one left who gives a fuck at the club soon

He left a couple of months ago - but this debarcle also shows why so many others have got out of dodge as soon as possible, Wellens/Seamus Brady (allegedly)/Ben Chorley (yesterday)/Mark Isaccs and Adam & Kay Wainwright - I am sure there are many others..  The writing has obviously been on the wall internally for quite a while

It's probably self-preservation, but I have absolutely no expectation of the club going unpunished if anything is proven. There are a lot of precedents for clubs being punished for having bad owners, as you say.

Yet, the EFL and FA sanction these bad owners to take charge of clubs.

It is interesting, though, that the club and Power have been charged separately - presumably so any punishments can be ‘tailored’.

We have a very good track record with the footballing authorities. I would, therefore, expect a very lenient punishment as normal

Almost certainly just a polite repremand not to do it again.

Seamus is still at the club, FWIW

I imagine its mainly stop clubs being 'sold' to avoid punishment, be interesting to see Clems thoughts on this matter, especially as Powers actions have the potential to make his £1.5m investment worth the square root of fuck all.

Still think something fairly fundamental has happened in the court proceedings for the FA to have taken action that could so obviously prejudice the case.

Apparently...

I've seen Andy Holt trying to make this point on Twitter - that the EFL's poor governance is responsible for "bad owners". But the EFL isn't an external body separate from the owners, it is a members' club made up of the owners. It is the owners who vote on what regulations should govern how clubs are bought, sold and run. It is the owners who have the power to demand the employees of the EFL enforce those regulations. Strangely the owners tend to choose not to vote for them to be governed more strictly. If the owners of clubs think there is a problem with "bad owners", they only have themselves to blame and might like to ask themselves why they continually choose not to enact and enforce regulations that would prevent "bad owners". Maybe they're "bad owners" too?

I saw him there on Monday. In full coaching kit.

EDIT: Tuesday. Damn Bank Holidays!

This story suggests he was 'previously' here, albeit he could be doing both I suppose, albeit not very well. https://www.wlrfm.com/2021/03/03/seamus-brady-the-new-blues-first-team-coach/

Apparently, he knows nothing about that.

What were you doing around the club wearing full coaching kit, full kit wanker!

:D

I assume he also knows nothing about being listed on the Waterford FC website as Assistant Manager, this guy rivals Miss Rabbit for having multiple jobs. https://waterfordfc.ie/club/

I had always assumed he was an older guy....

When did Chorley go?

I think iirc he was one of the few who does vote against it,like you say be nice to see them all vote accordingly

I feel today is going to be an F5 kind of day....

I have no doubt he is spending his time working at the club, more of a case of whether he is still employed by Swindon Town FC.

It kind of says it in my quote :D


Keep up Tans..

He is yes, but he bangs on about the EFL vs "bad owners" like the EFL is an external force when it's not. It's a club of the owners. If the majority of those owners don't want to clamp down on "bad owners" maybe there is a majority of bad owners?

(https://i.imgur.com/8ubGFLt.gif)

Fair point. Too subtle for me :)

From what I gather he knows about being listed, but nothing about actually having the job. Or, at least, that's what he says.

Although obviously devious and dodgy, how is Standing/Barry giving Power a load of dosh into his own bank account which he then uses to run the club break any rules? If the money went straight into the clubs bank account, fair enough, but it didn’t.

I suppose the 2 goons actually fessing up doesn’t help.

I think, its a case of 'if it wasn't for those pesky kids we'd have got away with it' scenario. As you say, dodgy Standing loaned/gave dodgy Power £6 million of moolah via his bank account to invest into the club with an aim to get some money back via player sale profits?

Because of the court case, this has now come out on the open and subsequently the FA investigation?

It's because Standing is an agent. You cannot have agents having an interest in a club. It's as simple as that.

The semantics around the floe of money etc will be determined by the FA Panel and the court case. It's quite clear that Standing and/or Barry were involved with the funding of the club, and that's in clear breach of the FA regs.

It's a pretty open/shut case in my untrained opinion.

As I said before, by only charging Power and Standing the FA appear to have concluded that Powers suggestion that the cash came from Barry is bollocks, which is interesting and appears to almost predetermine the court case as that seems to be Powers almost sole defence to counter Standing.

Quite.

It feels like we're mid unravel. The only question is how much damage is caused while the unravelling is completed.

I suppose the protagonists refusal to show the FA relevant bank accounts doesn’t inspire confidence.

Because it's an obvious dodge to get round the rules and so is explicitly covered in the rules. You should probably have a read of them

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/files/thefaportal/governance-docs/agents/intermediaries/the-fa-working-with-intermediaries-regulations-2020-21.ashx

I do think the fans need to step up now. I don't know how or what, but it feels like it's time. I hadn't been on the "Power is the devil" train (although I never liked him) but this is too much. I don't feel like the Trust asking for answers is enough any more (no knock at the Trust, they're doing what they can).

Anyone got their orange hat still?  

Where has that come from?

They can still charge Barry at a later date, this will run a while yet.
It won't have any bearing on the court case.   FA regulations are not contract law and a judge > fa panel.

A court can also demand unrestricted access to bank accounts etc where the FA cannot.

‘Barry, 40, who won 53 caps for England, and Standing both refused to hand over financial records to FA investigators, while Power let them see heavily redacted ones.
SunSport has also seen incredible claims made in court by former Norwich striker Power, 48, during his High Court battle with Standing last May.
A meeting was claimed to have been held at Barry’s house in March 2013.
Power insisted Barry knew full well he would be breaking FA rules.
The same applied to Standing, as he was a football agent, with both sure to fail the “fit-and-proper test”.
So they came up with an oral deal with the idea Power “would sell his shares in the club in around five years after he hoped to have turned around its fortunes and would share the profits arising from any increase in the value of Swindon with Barry, in exchange for Barry providing funds”.
Losses at the club would be funded 50-50 by Barry and Power and the pair would share equally any profits on player sales.’

If that’s blatantly wrong to the point of defamation of character or slander I’m sure the currant bun will invite either party to sue them.

Bar the first bit, all the rest has been in the public domain for months, the second para should actually begin 'Sunsport has read the judgement'..

I need to e mail Gareth Barry and Michael standing and tell them I'm a Nigerian prince. If they did send the money to Nigeria there'd be a bigger paper trail than the £6m to power.
Power being a cunt is not exactly a secret in football as Rushden and diamonds and Cambridge and the program printing mallarky had shown.
In way you've got to admire power in his ability to keep plates spinning and finding gullible idiots like Barry and standing.  

You can be sure that HMRC will be sniffing around as well  :hmmm:
They don't give up !

Didn't they just withdraw their sponsorship?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/14577530/gareth-barry-fa-rap-swindon-stake/

this states

"
Former midfielder Standing, who joined Aston Villa on the same day as Barry in 1997, and his company First Touch Pro Management were charged with breaching intermediaries regulation E4, relating to owning/seeking to own Swindon Town.

Power and Swindon have been charged with FA rules E1.2 and E9 (agreement to breach rules/regs) in having an agreement for Standing and First Touch to have an interest in Swindon (contrary to intermediaries reg E4)".

You're on form today, Ben :D

In a word, no.

The director i.e. Power is responsible for the running of the company, the only person(s) who can hold directors to account are the majority shareholders, which is also Power (or Barry/Standing, depending on the court case).

It appears the "Hustler of Herisau" is finally getting unpicked.
The "Geezer from Geneva" is being found out.
"Lee of Lausanne" is on the ropes and no longer has anyone to hide behind.

You can guarantee the cunt will drag the club down with him, rather than swallow his pride.

Nice bloke. Cunt (not an endearing one).

I don't understand how the club could possibly be found guilty here. The club is just a vehicle used for the dodgy dealings made outside of official club business. The fact the money has been funnelled into Power's businesses and into the club, how is anyone within the club supposed to recognise the source of the funds without access to all of Power's business accounts?

Surely the club should be cleared of all wrongdoing and Standing, Barry and Power have the book thrown at them and banned...

The way I read things (pending court case), at present Lee Power is the sole owner ergo he is "the club". Even if in reality those two things are seperate (businessman (very loose term) and business).

But if a business owner, or chief exec, or MD etc are found guilty of an offence related to their business the individuals are punished, not the business.

Think Nick Leeson.

In simplicity possibly but you could guarantee the "Lewisham Lone Wolf" would drag the club with him.

Under criminal law that is generally the case although there have been changes made over the last few decades to hold companies to account for a collective failing Eg corporate manslaughter

In this case it is a breach of FA regulations it is not the same as law. 

Surely the club should be cleared of all wrongdoing and Standing, Barry and Power have the book thrown at them and banned...

In an ideal world yes but as we have seen before making an example of a club is the modus operandi in punishment terms. All three of the wrong ‘uns can walk away from football STFC cannot, it is football.

Does anybody have any idea how long it will be before they make any decisions?  How long do these things usually take?

Are we a top flight club?  :sherlock:

Interesting comment from Nixon.

We are charged by the FA who don’t award points deductions - only the EFL do that.

So we can wait for a chare from the EFL, then?

Not sure there's any EFL regs we're breaching.

When we got demoted were there 2 governing bodies then or just the FA

maybe they can ban us from the fa cup for a couple of seasons. it'll make no material difference anyway

2


it was the football League, who, for the avoidance of doubt, are full of shit.

They'd probably be doing us a favour

Answering my own question. It was the Football League who demoted us, not the FA.

On that basis, I’m sleeping soundly tonight!

Oops. Back to sleepless nights

‘Luton will start next season on an unprecedented minus 30 points after a ruling by the Football League.
The Hatters had already been deducted 10 points by the Football Association after being found guilty of misconduct for paying agents via a third party.
And the company which will take over the club has now been told it must accept a further 20-point deduction in order to be allowed in the League.
The penalty came after Luton failed to satisfy the League's insolvency rules.
The combined 30-point deduction is the biggest in Football League history, giving Luton an extraordinarily difficult task in trying to avoid relegation for the third season in a row. Bookmakers have already made them 10-1 on favourites to drop down to the Blue Square Premier.
But the club is appealing against the FA's 10-point deduction for financial irregularities in regard to its dealings with agents, with the case set to be heard next week.
The 20-point additional penalty related to the club's inability to agree a Company Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to exit administration, with the Football League pointing out that this is the third time in 10 years that Luton have been in such a position.
   
Once again a policy of honesty is not recognised at all by the footballing authorities who claim they want to clean up the game
LT2020 director Stephen Browne
The Football League board also imposed the condition that Luton Town 2020 (LT2020), the new holding company, must pay any unsecured creditors 16p in the pound and asked it to forego any right of appeal.
LT2020 director Stephen Browne said the club was still being punished for the mistakes of the previous regime in charge at Kenilworth Road.
"We have tried to do everything openly and honestly and we placed our faith in the footballing authorities," said Browne, whose consortium is still in talks with the administrator.
"Obviously the very clear message from both the FA and the Football League is that doing such a thing is a total waste of time.
"Once again the faithful supporters are left high and dry and once again a policy of honesty is not recognised at all by the footballing authorities who claim they want to clean up the game."
But Football League chairman Brian Mawhinney said the board had little option but to take a strong line with Luton.
"The board's primary responsibility is to protect the integrity of their competitions," said Mahwinney.
   
606: DEBATE
Ridiculous - we've lost 40 points in a little over six months
Marvin4England
"This often means making difficult decisions which require balancing the interests of fans, the club's creditors and the other teams in the League.
"We will continue to take that responsibility very seriously."
Browne said that the consortium, fronted by BBC presenter Nick Owen, would not give up despite the points deduction representing a serious setback.
"We will continue the fight by sticking to our principles of openness and honesty," he said.
"People who should, in theory at least, be protecting supporters will not bring us down.
"It's not a laughing matter any more, but even so we will continue to ensure that Luton have a solid and sustainable future, despite what the Football League do to us."

^^^ well no audry, I'd already answered it so you should worry about missing that instead of sleeping

Apparently, it IS the EFL that deals with points deductions these days. FA are fines and bans.

The best outcome will be you lot get relegated this season and then start next season with a points deduction and then you get to finally be where you all belong in non League happy fucking days
COYY 😂😂😂

What's it like down there? We've never been before.

Fuck off

You will fit it very well with that skip of a ground if you will still get to play there otherwise you could ground share with supermarines let’s hope you don’t end up
Like bury who else would we get to beat on and off the pitch
COYY

Careful Tans...

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/disability-hate-crime/

We would still be a bigger team than the pox even if we were non league😀
Established since 1879 not 1962👌
Forever in our shadow!

But sensitive aren’t we

Probably the pounding your mum gives you.

Bit of prick aren't we? Is your username a family sleeping arrangement?

You wish where are you in the league oh yeah fighting to stay up
Bigger my arse 😁

Mind you, Power is rather insignificant compared to the piss stains ‘ol Capn Bob. Stealing from pensioners to fund the cunts.

That only thing happens in Swindon

Time of the month

And to think you are home to the English dictionary, ever read it? Or read ever it, if that helps?

I see someone has got bored already with their club’s annual post Xmas bottling.

That's the decent well to do folk not the rabble from blackbird leys😀

But I was having fun.

Sugar daddy? That little Thai fella is a front for some shadowy backers. Same ones who nearly ruined Reading.

Let’s hope they have more luck thus time around.

I cannot think of anything to add to this conversation anymore other than this. I doubt the FA would be levelling charges to either protagonist or the club if they didn’t think there was a case to answer or they were on solid ground in pressing the charges. In any event we’re going down to division two or starting next season with a massive points deduction in division one topped off with a huge fine.

Fine by me if it means a Power and Sheridactyl fuck off

And you know this as a fact, do you?

Yes. I had a phone call from the chief honcho at the FA.

To be fair isn’t that a part of the reason your owner/owners have run out of money after bankrolling you to promotion last season shame they wasted the money really seeing as your be non league in two years that’s the only premiership your be playing in for a long time good luck with that

you'll, it's you'll. A contraction of 'you will'.

Keep reading your username as Marrow. Thought maybe the youth team had been upgraded from bananas. Very disappointing.

Can somebody please just boot the troll? He's not even entertaining - more like thrush.

Well, when it happens come back and say ‘I told you so’.

Until then, go fuck yourself.

How did he/she slip through the mods and get approved😀

Or possibly 'yule' to a piss stain inbred.

Oh, she's gone.

Bed time  :clap: :clap:

Yole

They always disappear around dinner time.

Fucking more annoying than me on a bad day. Cupid stunts!

How long were you a Non League team again?

Seems a curious choice for a line of attack, doesn't it? May as well have said, 'Haha, if one of your stands falls down, you'll only have three!'

Or, "if a science fiction style temporal anomaly erased 46 years of your history since 1920 then you'd have only been in the football league for a total of 54 seasons." Or something

Oh wait I forgot to take into account the second world war. Fuck it. It was a forced effort anyway.

Could well be the only positive that comes out of this.
Just hoping we don’t find our club deep in the lower pyramid of football obscurity.
The pressure will intensify over the coming weeks for sure.

I’m actually quite looking forward to the prospect of some kind of resolution, even if an outcome is relegation and / or points deduction. Hopefully it will usher in a new regime on and off the pitch sooner rather than later.

It’s a bit like feeling a spot brewing on your chin but having to wait a little longer before it’s ready to squeeze. There’ll be a bit of pain, the nastiness is removed and then the healing begins. There’ll then be a period of perfect complexion (before the next pus-filled bubo starts to emerge).

Be careful of what you wish for! A 10 point this season and 20 point deduction next season could be as bad as expulsion from the league. Do you think the club would come back from that?

Friday Statements later? I'm guessing not if they've still got a while to appeal, but it would be nice for tradition.

And then we'd all be free!!!!!

Oddly enough, this doesn't worry me.  If we were ushered out of the League and had to restart several divisions below, I think the club would weather it.  Maybe even enjoy the journey.  Away games would be well attended, and matchday rituals would carry on.

If this is the price we have to pay to move on, I'd be OK to pay it.  What I can't stand is the eternal purgatory of shifty ownership.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but then again I am a shit fan who lives muiles away and doesn't attend bar the occasional away fixture.

Would remove the hope value attached to the club which would hopefully in turn allow the fans with deep pockets that we often hear of to actually get involved at a sensible level and go from there.

Yep same. I'm a shit fan anyway like Horlock that picks and chooses games each season. Whatever division we are in I'll go and watch and enjoy the day out win, lose or draw. Ironically enough, I would probably watch less games the higher division we are in due to increased ticket cost/demand etc.

That's true!  :clap:

Last season, in the bottom league, was lots of fun. As was the previous season we got promoted from that league.

I'm not at all for restarting lower down because I don't think it will solve anything. But that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable. (Although it could still be shit).

I am sure the club in its defence could argue that it gained no unfair performance benefit on the pitch during the period of the  Power and Standing collaboration which apparently ended before last season's promotion.

Apart from 2014-15 play off season, which was largely based on the pre Power signings and some good loan deals, we have gone backwards and any money lent was blown keeping lower league footballers in employment they might not have achieved.

Sent from my SM-T500

I think any sort of harsh division altering punishment would probably unite the fan base (which is probably the least divided it’s been ever?) and possibly create a bit of ‘us vs then’ mentality - which is usually a good thing in football.

Getting that knock out punch and hitting rock bottom might just get the fan base up and fighting again more so than getting continual jabs for 9 rounds. I dunno...

I don’t think it’s impossible. If the club survived, I’d still watch us slug it out in Div 5. There are plenty of teams in there that we’d be reacquainted with.

I doubt that would stand up.

Whether or not we benefited is relative. Things haven't been great, but they might have been even worse without that money.

I think there is a lot of straw clutching going on, Power (who remember is basically the club) broke the rules and thus sanctions will follow, there is no precedent I can think of of the FA/FL etc saying OK it were the owners who done it, we will spare the fans, it just doesn't happen.

Likewise, whether we gained benefit or not is irrelevant, its like arguing that whilst you were found in someone's bedroom having smashed a window to enter as you ignored the telly and just nicked a watch its not really burglary.

Still think there is some sort of rat fight going on in the background otherwise I would have expected to have heard from Clem by now considering he is in many ways an innocent party who stands to lose cash here.

How dropping from League One to the National League, National League South or lower can be seen as a realistic, fair or a postive means to an end just to oust the current owner is beyond me.

A lot of the warm and fuzzy sentiment surrounding a jolly in Non-League is very much reliant on Swindon winning most games, which isn't a guarentee, and also remaining at the County Ground which again might not be a given (and even then, with 1 or 2 stands open).

I really don't think this would be as glamorous as some make out and the novelty for most would be well and truly gone by the time we get our heads around a 2-1 Boxing Day loss at Maidenhead. I know people like the booze and the day out but it really isn't worth it based on the shrug-of-the-shoulders-sacrifices being outlined by some.

Fans need to maintain focus. If Power and co are guilty then we need the Football Association to ensure that these individuals are out of game so Town can seek new ownership who are willing to pick up the pieces with the club in the EFL, where we deserve to be for 2021/22 at the very least.

We are a Football League side of 100 years and our only spell away was a year in the Premier League. Let's not wish it away because of one owner.

Absolutely spot on.

There is difficulty in separating the club from the owner especially if Power uses the same lawyers in our defence to save money. Ideally, you would mount a club defence that funding solely came via the owner. Unfortunately his hands on approach doesn't help compared to say an Andrew Black type owner who sat in the background handing over money.

The point around unfair advantage was used against the club in 1990 that our progress through the divisions was somehow purely based on the out of contract bunging players an extra few quid off the back of a win. Rather than a great talent spotting manager finding players good enough to play in World Cups.

Of course if the money had come from a loan shark, Wonga loans or some dodgy non football related connections then it's within the rules. But because it's within the game it's worthy of huge penalties.

When has the FA/FL ever applied sanctions in that way, the club broke the rules, the club will unfortunately have to pay the consequences and no manner of making out we are some sort of special case is going to change that sadly. We may be a club of 100+ years standing so were Bolton who some might argue have a much more illustrious history than us broke the rules through the actions of their owners, the club got sanctioned (and that was after new owners had taken over an option we don't even have at the moment), so were Bury, likewise with Wigan (albeit without the illustrious history).

Would I want to see us relegated, not in the slightest and it would be shit and a struggle to recover, but we need to be realistic in what we are dealing with here rather than thinking it won't happen to us. WE get found guilty the outcome is going to hurt the club and fans.

Fuck all that old bollocks, I've already got the London Reds picking out suitable pubs for Maidenhead away.

What's to stop power staying and just funding the club to the money that comes in. Unless the authorities ban him then he's still in charge. He can't be thought any less of so why not stay and try and rinse the club and others further. I can't see how it is in his interest to go unless someone gives him shit loads and a confidentiality agreement not to disclose anything they find. Who would do that at the moment. Best to wait until court cases resolved and fan pressure mounts on power.

It's going to be hard for theFA to prove anything if the relevant parties are refusing to disclose financial information - which I presume the FA can't force them.

I reckon the reason the club and Power have been charged individually - especially as, atm, they are one and the same - is the FA know about an impending sale and don't want Power getting off Scot free, leaving the club as the only recipient of a punishment.

Power will be banned from further involvement with football, the club  will get fined, Standing will get his Agents licence revoked.

As I pointed out on Twitter yesterday, the thing with national League is this:

Oxford and Rovers bounded back.

But look at the list that haven't yet:

Hartlepool, Torquay, Stockport, Notts County, Chesterfield, Wrexham, Aldershot, Yeovil, Barnet

what money. he seems to have borrowed/secured most of it from Standing, Clem and, allegedly, Taylor Curran's dad, the security guy and Marty Byrd.

Doubt any will lend him any more

As the FA basically sanctions all football, I would assume they will have some power to basically fuck us over if we don't co-operate?

Several others have bounced back as well to be fair. Doncaster many years ago, Lincoln, Luton, Grimsby, Mansfield, Carlisle etc etc. I'd say we were more on that level than Torquay, Hartlepool et al with no disrespect to them.

However I do get the point. I'd rather not go down there because there's no guarantee it's an instant response at all.

I don't know what people think ending up in non-league would achieve.

We'd still have owners, who may or may not be shysters. We'd still have managers who may or may not be shite.

Some might think the former will be answered by fan ownership, but that would not eradicate the need for money and even a well-meaning ownership will not be immune to making poor decisions.

Fair point. I guess bouncing back would be dependant on whatever mess the current owner leaves us in financially.

in any case, we are all agreed - let's not find out!

Exeter and Cheltenham also. Whilst I do agree with what you and RP are saying, it isn't quite as difficult to get out of the Conference these days now they have opened up the play-offs down to 8th (I think). In previous times when it was only 1/2 up, that was a slog to get out of.

That said, nobody really knows the punishment(s) we are likely to be served up, I think the non-league chat is very much glass totally empty chat that no fan wants, but may have to accept, should anything more serious than financial punishment come to pass.

I forgot about the crazy playoffs they've got now

Who bloody knows, with his 'history' I am amazed that anyone lent any to him before, or in fact how people who have made lots of cash (which would suggest they are pretty shrewd) seem prepared to throw big amounts of cash about without any written agreement/contract nor security?

Different world.

Whatever we get from the football.lwague, ticket sales etc. Much less than now. So we have even shitter players on shorter contracts and the club slides but power stays until he gets an offer he accepts.

Depends what level we start at as none of those ended up below the National League. Despite all the excitement on here if we ended up in the Southern league for example barely 1k would likely attend after a few weeks and the novelty wears off. People seem to be forgetting that the National League has stricter rules on finances than the EFL so if we got kicked out of the EFL I'd say it's extremely unlikely we would get accepted by them so we'd be looking at step 7 best case, no thanks.  

What's £5 million to a player that has been in the PL since the age of 16/17?  It's probably seen as a bit of loose change.

Setting aside whatever the FA decide to do, as it stands Power has an asset (the football club) that is depreciating by the hour, and the only thing that may stop that slide is us staying up. Start in Div 2 next season and its worth even less (plus unless some sort of miracle happens the crowds will be barely above 3 figures if this forum is anything to go by), add into the mix that in theory he potentially only owns 35% (still not sure why Standing and Clem have not had a cosy chat yet, perhaps they have) and I imagine HMRC are taking an interested glance in our direction.

As I see it, the only value left is the houses he has planning permission for.

Gareth Barry? Shrewd?

More like 'Screwed' by the sound of it.

so we've gone from a points deduction to getting demoted 4 divisions. Damn the FA are getting stricter by the hour

Why not both?

I imagine he made more than that during a single one of his 5 seasons at Man City so yeah I doubt its much an issue financially, probably a punt that he wrote off years ago.

Be careful what you wish for !.

The point is no one knows, one thing that concerns me is that we will be seen as a precedent.

I just don't get the excitement from some about watching the club at a semi-professional level and whether it's via the FA or a financial collapse there is a significant risk of something along those lines happening now.

My gut feeling is that it'll be fines all round.

Not that's it's relevant, but I'd be gone if we were a National League South club or a Phoenix.

In an ideal world, Power will be fined and told he can no longer own the club and be forced to sell.

Standing will be fined and have his license revoked to be an agent.

Barry will be fine and banned from ownership of any club.

The club will be given a slap on the wrist and a defered fine and a with suspended points deduction/explusion/demotion if caught again.

Loyal Supporter !!.

I think that's the best idea yet JJ.

What was the actual fine for West Ham when they breached third party ownership regulations on Tevez and Mascherano? £5.5m or something like that, not entirely relevant to us I guess but the fine amount says that it is seen as a pretty serious misdemeanour.

Orrrrr they'll get a slap on the wrists and Town will be put over a barrel and made an example of.

Think that's a bit doom mongery. From memory, Leeds got done for something similar and they got fined / Cellino got a ban (the rules have changed since then, probably thanks to Leeds). I know people think the FA have an agenda against us because of something that happened 30 years ago, but a demotion is excessive for the crime. A points deduction seems harsh but I could see it happening. I'd probably take a points deduction AND a ban for Power right now if it meant he fucked off.

My ultimate concern is the financial side if I'm honest, even if we do 'only' get a fine, if Power is the owner still do we think he will actually pay it especially as it will seemingly indicate he will lose the court case in December or whenever it is. Then what....

I'm certainly not going get involved in fan wars with you - we all have our own motivations for going to football, and mine would be eroded at that level.

I can't see anything but the club being forced to dissolve PLUS a point deduction (even though we no longer exist). And we will never be allowed to form again, not even in non-league, ever. Oxford and the Bristols also get points ADDED ON just to punish us further.

FACT!!!

BUT IT'LL BE FUN

Taking aside the current punishment looming, would you really stop going/supporting the club if it got relegated to say Conference South due to consistent ineptitude etc? And then you'd come back again if the club started to rise up the league again, or would that be it completely?

And this is not meant as a dig, or a moan or whatever as fans can do what they like, but just curious as to the thinking that's all.

It's the same as anything this though, some people will enjoy it more for some reason. Some people hate the thought of playing in the premier league it's just down to what each fan feels and enjoys as a fan. There is no actual right or wrong answer i suppose

I don't care whatever division we end up in I will always follow and support the club, its not about success or the level we play at but about the club, the town and the fraternity.

Honestly, I'd defo be out if it were a phoenix. If we ended up in NLS purely through ineptitude, I don't think I'd be interested in semi-pro football and the costs associated with travelling 150 miles to watch us v Chippenham or Bath or Slough.

I think it'd break the habit, and who knows if that'd recover if we recovered our league position. Let's hope we never find out.

For me personally I don't think I would bother, I want to see a reasonable standard of football. Watching football at a level that isn't that far off what I've played at doesn't have any attraction to be honest and wouldn't get me travelling to Swindon to watch.

Sod getting a season ticket in non League.

Blimey, lots of people getting carried away this morning with the doomsday scenarios. I'm not sure that the FA even have the power to demote/deduct points, I think those sanctions are only available to the PL/EFL as the FA doing it would be an infringement on the jurisdictions and integrity of the leagues. I can't find any precedent for the *FA* ordering a points deduction or demotion. AFAIK, the FA only have the power to fine, suspend or ban individuals or organisations. Of course that doesn't preclude the possibility that if the FA find the club guilty of a charge then the EFL could take further action on the basis of that charge but I'm not sure they can do that (double jeopardy and all that) and anyway that's pure speculation. At the moment we are facing an FA charge and so would be subject to FA sanctions. It's really important to remember what the various governing bodies are and what they have jurisdiction over before everyone reaches for the nuclear scenario.

If we started in the South West leagues I would be able to get to far more matches in person :) selfish to the last me.

For me without Swindon there is no football, I am not interested in any other club and haven't even bothered watching the overpaid prima donnas of the England team lately.

One club man.

I'm not sure that many people on here ACTUALLY expect us to get thrown out of the league, or deducted 30 points next season or whatever in reality. The Swindon in the Southern leagues etc often is brought up and discussed and I think it's probably been triggered by the news this week.

Not really mate, its more of a What if "worst case scenario", everybody gets something different from football and supporting us, many many factors are involved.


I thought the EFL had to abide by what the FA say, so if they suggest a points deduction or demotion then the EFL will have to stand by that decision?

Not like we haven't been demoted for financial irregularities before, the only club to have been demoted for this, thats why some fans can only see the negative side of things with all things FA/EFL related.

All completely fair and valid points and with you completely on the last statement. I wonder if we'd create new and intense rivalries with Bath City etc whilst down there. You can imagine some of our more 'tasty' fans might enjoy the opportunities to act like dickheads in new and exciting towns and cities.

It could be argued that in the last 10 years or so we haven't exactly played a lot of what could be classed as 'reasonable standard' of football. But again, I completely get and respect your point.

I suppose I should put down a deposit on a Yeovil town season ticket.

Yes, by the Football League. Not the FA. A lot of people don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two, and the fact they have two different disciplinary/regulatory systems.

You don't realise the gulf until you witness it, the other year I played for a Vets (over 35) team with a lot of players having spent a good number of seasons at Southern League/Hellenic level. We played a team with Julian Joachim, Lee Hendrie and Lee Carsley in it and even in their 40's they were at a different level.  

The FA can’t direct the EFL to carry out a punishment on their behalf.

It’ll be a combo of bans and fines.

to be fair, they did play most of their careers at the very top level. It would be interesting if you replaced those 3 players you mentioned with ex-pros who spent most of their careers at Lg1 and 2 and see if there was such a big gap. I daresay there would be a gap of course, but probably not as much of a chasm as having those guys.

Given our performances against non-league teams in the FA Cup, I dread to think how we would get on playing those kind of teams permanently! :)

I am not sure people actually expect us to be demoted it's just a discussion on a forum about peoples thoughts on if in the highly unlikely event it happened

As has been mentioned numerous times, the FA don't do points deductions - the EFL does.

So, does anybody know if we've broken any EFL rules?

I'd say we are in breach of some of these (specifically section 105):

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/sections-10--11---association-and-dual-interests-and-additional-provisions/

Doesn't seem like anyone knows yet

I’d actually be more likely to start going again, if we went into non league and / or as a Phoenix club.

The current STFC has done me dirty so many times over the years. To be point that I felt like support STFC was a horrendous addiction and ruining my mood constantly.

The current state as a completely irrelevant L1-L2 club is boring as fuck to me. I’d rather watch us play Maidenhead than Oldham or Colchester or Shrewsbury or Carlisle or Accrington or Plymouth.
Teams we’ve played god knows how many times in the last 20 years.

I’d rather we were the dog bollocks (no guarantee that would be the case obviously) in a lower division than just making up the numbers in a higher division.

But is it likely to get butt fucked by BOTH governing bodies for the same offence(s)? Guessing the 2 have discussed it between them and the FA got the gig.

That's about owning stake in more than one club in the EFL, not about agents. However, all leagues regulated by the FA are obliged to incorporate or at least allow for FA regulations in their own rules, so there may well be EFL rules around this. As I said, it's probably open to the League to put us on a charge as well if the FA find their charge proven and that may then allow for points deductions BUT I don't know if there is such a rule and/or if they can effectively punish us twice for the same offence. At the moment we are facing an FA charge and people are massively overreacting. Understandably perhaps, but really some of the stuff on here this morning is well over the top.

Whatever the outcome, I wonder if it will impact his ownership of Waterford.

thought it was quite an interesting discussion about how far people will go to remove power.

I think most people know - they don't know whether it'll be a slap on the wrists fine, or lead to something more severe

I'm not so sure, it states 'interests in more than one football club'. Standing being an agent surely means he has interests in more than one club by definition.

It does still amaze me that there are so many governing bodies in football. Not all sing from the same hymn sheet or even worship the same God, as it were.

No it doesn't. What is meant by "interests in more than one football club" is defined within that same section, albeit laboriously. It means someone with a financial and/or executive interest, not just interested generally. Otherwise companies wouldn't be able to work for more than one club.

Difference being here that Standing had a direct interest over the financial decision making at one of the clubs he has an interest in. Ultimately who knows, I'm sure there will be a general bringing the EFL into disrepute charge that can be thrown at the club.

Yes, but he didn't have interests in more than one football club. You're looking at the wrong regulations. It's the Owners and Directors Test that prohibits agents from having a beneficial/controlling interest in a club. So theoretically we might be open to a charge under those regulations. BUT
a) We're not at the moment, we're facing an FA charge
b) As I understand it, double jeopardy rules would prohibit the EFL from charging us with an offence the FA had already dealt with. There would need to be a breach of the EFL rules that hadn't been dealt with by the FA charge

I'm sure the case will dragon for a while, we have until 22 April to respond, not sure they can deny the charges, then there will have to be a date agreed for the hearing, legal's will argue it out so will probably be a 2-3 day hearing, then we will have to wait for the punishment, then once that is announced there will be the right of appeal, then will have to convene and meet to over everything again, then again waiting for the outcome, so you would guess everything will not be fully known until at least July/August.

During that time we need to appoint a new manager, let him appoint his backroom team, who needs to be given a budget and needs to assess his squad and start arranging a pre-season and speaking to players to sign.

Will Power have any interest with the charges hanging over him in wanting to get the football side of things working properly and quickly or will be just give the job to the dinosaur for ease.

I am seriously considering sending him a strongly worded letter!

It doesn't surprise me, regulation is big business with a lot of noses in the trough, it does surprise me however that there is the possibility that if the FA find us guilty of something the FL will apparently just say 'well lads the FA have dealt with it so crack on, I can just imagine the teams who finished below us in the league last season will let that lie. The idea that double jeopardy no longer applies for murder (I was at school with the first lad who got done under that law change) but still applies in football does amaze me though.

Most sports regulation is to act as a deterrent, if we get a slap on the bum its going to deter no one from doing the same so I am not that hopeful.

Sounds like half of you might as well fuck off and support Supermarine. Fucking weirdos.

... unless Power et al get a hefty fine/ban/whatever.

Yes, but an FA fine could lead to administration and then a points deduction. Doomsday scenario maybe, but it is a scenario that could see the club in non-league in little over a year - relegation due to being shit this season and relegation next season due to not being good enough to overhaul a points deduction. I’m naturally pessimistic so that’s my direction of travel.

Not many pubs to choose from. However Maidenhead away would be so convenient. It’d also guarantee the attendance of one Timothy Mallet. Self proclaimed Maidenhead “super fan”. So a target for some colourful chants at least

Why would a fine lead to administration? Do you think we’d get fined millions or something?

It would have to be one hell of a fine.

Legitimate concern to be fair as do you think considering the current ownership debate do you actually think Power would pay any fine?

That still wouldn't lead to administration.

Not paying bills or not having/wanting to pay for things ultimately leads to admin. I don't think it inappropriate to have massive concerns over status of the club as a going concern over the coming months and this combined with any financial punishment could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I completely agree that it's right to be concerned about the state of the club, it's clearly a mess and there are some very real threats on the horizon. So there's no need to either exaggerate the scale of those threats or make up non-existent ones, the shit we're in is bad enough

I think once the dust settles on all this, Town will "Do a Leicester" via the contacts in Clem's Filofax and we'll see Town lift the Premier League title in 10yrs.

This will be the axis for Town, along with a shiny redeveloped ground (including integrated water park) to boot. There will be no more shifty powers held over the Town.

 :pint:

At least after this Clem will probably be able to reduce his offer for the club

Although nothing would stop Power & Standing selling their remaining 84.9999% share to someone else should they kiss and make up.

What's made up or non-existent? Experience says when a business that is operating hand to mouth (I think we all agree that is the case here) encounters any unexpected expenditure (of which a fine would be as it's not going to be budgeted for) it doesn't often end well. I don't think fearing that a fine given to the club could lead to admin is that far fetched unfortunately!

There's no doubt in my mind that Power will use any potential fine as a reason to have to do something annoying... Selling a player, not offering decent money for potential new players. Admin, no idea. He's already threatened it so I can imagine he will threaten it again as a bluff (at the very least).

The chances are Power will have sold up in the not too distant. I presume Clem, or whoever, will amend (lower) any offer to take account of the shit state he has left the club in.

And that offer is going to go lower and lower the longer the fat cockney cunt hangs around.

I'd be amazed if any potential buyer had a clue what the state of the club is even after due diligence.

tbf that's certainly a realistic scenario, just don't see any fine actually forcing us into admin unless it's astronomical. Someone choosing to use it as cover, however, that's more than credible

Like I said, I’m naturally pessimistic so I’m considering a worst-case scenario. While I’ve no idea whether Power’s comments about the club being on the brink of admin was total bollocks, almost bollocks or not at all bollocks, he’s hardly a business success story and so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if a further financial hit (astronomical is relative) would be enough for him to declare admin and jump into a self-serving life boat.

It's a weird one, on one hand things never seem to go that great for us. On the other hand after all the fucking chaos over the years the clubs still trucking along. History says we'll be fine.

Yep, fair point.

Give it a week or so and the club will probably announce season ticket prices so Power will still get one more payday

There’s still an injunction pending that prevents him from putting the club in admin.

I think this time people at least will hold back the money.

It’s won’t be long term.
Not sure of the legality to a “co-owner” having a 15% stake in the club and whether that prevents the club from going into admin.

Any interim injunction will usually continue until settlement or trial.

You need to change the avatar to Farewell to the Kings :)
We live in hope.

One day my friend

Hmm, it would seem there is precedent for the FA deducting points: when Spurs were found guilty of financial irregularities in 1994, they were outraged to be docked 12 points, apparently by the FA; and more recently 10 of the 30 points Luton were docked at the start of the 2008-09 season were an FA sanction. I had previously thought they were all FL deductions. I can't find a more recent instance of the FA docking points than the Luton case though. Happy to be corrected if others can.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/luton_town/7500435.stm

And having had the relevant section of the FA handbook pointed out to me, the power still exists for an FA Regulatory Commission to impose a punishment including

"any order which may be made under the rules and regulations of a Competition in which the Participant Charged  participates  or  is  associated,  which  shall  be  deemed  to  include  the  deduction  of  points  and  removal from a Competition at any stage of any playing season;"

Apologies for getting this wrong. Although it would appear the power hasn't been used since 2008, again, happy to be corrected if others can find a more recent instance.

All relative to the magnitude of said hypothetical fine, surely?

Unless I’m missing something. Someone has to pay the fine and get the money from somewhere and I can’t imagine the club exactly has much, if any cash in reserve.

Well yes, which is why I said (in the bit you quoted)

The other thing to consider is how odd this affect any potential takeover? The prospect for new owners to pay any fine as well as a points deduction are not great selling points.

I'm confident that people waiting in the wings have been well aware of these shenanigans for some time.

I really don't think you need to apologise (although it is admirable). What's more important is that you continued digging to find out the root of your own initial query. In turn that has probably made things much easier for others to understand and see where/if any wrongdoing would be subject to a points deduction. Even if that is at the expense of a faux pas for yourself :)

Luton were the last club to be docked points by the FA. Since then, though, they have only applied bans and/or fines.

There was a huge row about the FA giving Luton the 10 points deduction which may have been the tipping point of why they, seemingly, no longer dish them out.

Luton’s FA charge was about paying unlicensed football agents. That, along with FL points deduction for exiting admin without a CVA in place, had them start life in L2 on -25 points.

‘The points system
There is a growing recognition in football that league tables are becoming too determined by complicated financial events off the field resulting in clubs being docked points. Leeds United agreed to a 15-point deduction last season for failing to agree a CVA, but the Revenue and Customs' refusal to approve CVA settlements where "football creditors" are paid in full is making it extremely difficult for any administrator to get a CVA through. Next season, while Luton Town will begin bottom of League Two on minus 25 points if their appeal is unsuccessful, Bournemouth are likely to be on minus 15, and Rotherham, too, on minus 15 if their proposed CVA fails. While most Football League clubs firmly believe there should be strong sanctions for clubs that over-pay players then collapse into insolvency, there is some pressure on the league to review its policy that points should automatically be deducted.’

Rotherham, Bournemouth, Leeds & Luton

All teams comfortably above us...

Looks like The Athletic are going to be doing a piece on the situation. As with their Oldham Athletic article/expose earlier this year, they go in to great depth and get a lot of interesting stories from behind the scenes.

If a fine wasn't paid directly paid by the club it would just be deducted from the distribution monies from the TV deal.

Maybe they are but they have a longer way to fall and therefore more to loose. I doubt very much that they’re looking at us and thinking the opposite.

Eh?

They all did their failing and bounced back years ago...

Oh I see, my bad I thought that was going on now 😳 ah well, I did think why have I not heard anything about this nationally 🤣🤣

I think in respect of the EFL- if they did impose points deductions then legally we would have a strong case.

The alleged 800k investment for 50% of the club took place in 2013 when Power took over.

Obviously the EFL did not do their homework on 2 counts:

1) source of the funding for the takeover
2) fit and proper persons test

I think legally we would have a strong case to challenge any sanctions the EFL impose- am sure the trust are onto this

I thought Power took ages to pass the fit and proper test didnt he?

Strong statements - I infer that you are sports lawyer

Maybe Power used dodgy accountants to conceal the money from the EFL

Power,  Dodgy  ??,    Never !!.

Poor bloke takes some stick😀

Get ready for more Power dodgy dealings to come out of the woodwork this week!!

Are you in the know😳

Weirdly it's what we need to happen now. The more shit that comes out the harder it is to stay

Let me guess.

Gambling on matches? Or anything of that ilk?

Not Gambling, but some seriously dodgy shit!!

It's no wonder Wellens walked away if he had an incline of what power was about

If that was the case we can now see why.

Let us all assume that your comment holds water and turns out to be correct. So while it is obvious you are not going to say exactly what these new alleged revelations are let me pose something for you consider to answering without revealing too much.

Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is illegal. Now I’m not suggesting we’re talking tax pre se merely trying to gauge the severity of your snippet.

Therefore, legal, very questionable and dodgy as fuck, illegal in footballing terms or in a court of law should it get there fucking really illegal?

For fucks sake why come on here winding people up,  if you've got something to tell us then tell us, if you're just going to come on here spouting shite and really knowing fuck all - like any one of us could do then just Fuck Off.

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

100% this.

And there really is a lot to come out I am sure, allegedy.

If you don't want to believe it .....don't

Don't throw your toys out the pram like a 2 year old and get all abusive....

 :bye:

As we're all suffering fans together can you not gives an insight into the allegations as per LL post above?

Just press the ignore button surely it's easier than getting angry

Don't get angry at posters or individuals, get angry with those that are the root of the problem at the club.

^^^ both the above 2

I wonder what Jeremy Newton would make of all this

With the postings you make and a user name ' Cowley', Now where's that ?, I wonder if you are part of a piss stains wind up group.

And then if something doesn't come out next week he will have the usual suspects rubbing his nose in it every post he makes because something he dared to mention didn't come true - see it all the time and it is boring.  You are damned if you do and damned if you don't on here. 

As JJ says, get angry with the club not those that know but are not willing to get shot down if it doesn't come out/true.

I know something you don’t know nah nah nahnah nah

I can’t tell you what is is though.
When something (anything) comes out I can say ‘I told you so’ even though I didn’t.

 :clap:

Correct.😃😃

No, it’s pretty simple.
If you’ve heard something just outright say it & don’t present it as fact.

I’ve heard *blah blah blah* dunno whether it’s true or not. Just passing on the info.

I certainly wasn't getting angry just responding to legends lounge post where I thought he asked some fair questions on behalf of the forum and if they can't be answered no problem.

100% this.

You’ve had your fun, now answer my civil question please.

To be fair it's a forum he can say wat he wants. You have a choice to read it or not

That works both ways mate ;)

The best Cowley is in Middlesex, any others are a poor imitation

Very true

I quoted you but the post wasn't aimed at you - was just a general observation

Fair point👍

But he's done that in the past and now get's constant digs (you being one of the main culprits) when he mentions anything..  "but I thought he was never going to play for us again?" etc.  tedious..

And as stated, it's a forum, he can post what he wants, as can you, just pointing out the black pots and kettles in your outrage  - if you choose to get all angsty about it, that's on you.

Get over yourselves x3. He might know something, he might not. You'll either find out this week, or you won't. Either way, the only thing that changes is you've wet your knickers over it.

The sniping is far more tiresome than the speculation.

How about this? Those that don't want to read what Cowley posts, just don't read it. Or put him on ignore, your choice. The rest of us can read it and make our own evaluation of the merit or content of what he has to say. And nobody needs to get cross about reading or not reading any of it. How's that sound?

That's the most sensible post of the day!

I think you might be on to something here...

And the sniping at the sniping is tiresome. And the sniping at the sniping at the sniping is tiresome.

If people don't like the responses to Cowley's post... they can just scroll down. (It works both ways).

But here we are. Again. It's all pathetic, but it's just going to keep on going and EVERYBODY commenting is contributing to it.

Stop contributing to it then :D

Indeed

For what it’s worth, I’ve heard that there may or may not be more info coming out on Powers dodgy dealings this week.

Sorry Constable Flashheart.....wouldn't want to upset the forum police.....

Will keep my keyboard quiet from now on

 :D

can you at least say where you expect these new allogations to be made?

media? fa? efl? court summons?

No the Cowley in my username has nothing to do with a place....

Is actually a surname , so I'm not an Oxford supporter on the wind up

Unless I’ve missed it somewhere has Clem made a statement about the off field issues since his public announcement of wanting to buy club outright? Looks like his 15% could end up being worth fuck all so might end up well out of pocket. Wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up walking away from this mess too.

Aha! Unmasked!!

http://www.swindon-town-fc.co.uk/Person.asp?PersonID=COWLEYJA

You've looked after yourself well tbf

Wrong again...!!!

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Erm, yeah, it was clearly a joke? I didn't really think you were nearly 150 years old

How long has Power resided in Switzerland- the country with the tightest privacy laws re bank accounts?

What sort of company has Power been keeping? What are football clubs the perfect vehicle for?

Obviously..... :D

cuckoo clock and fondue production?

Don't lie, Paul.

George Cowley, CI5

It's a fair cop, I genuinely thought he was a vampire.

Fuck , you rumbled me

I would say it's not outrageous to presume that more news will emerge sooner rather than later given how things have unfolded in recent days. Tends to be the case.

If the rumour mill has new revelations about Power then it would have to be a fresh charge or someone going public as Power seems to be pretty good at keeping this stuff off the grid.

The national media are circling and they have a knack of unearthing stuff.

Fun times...

The national media are circling and they have a knack of unearthing stuff.

Which is what I was thinking earlier when I invited our. Friend Cowley38 to expand on his exclusive.

Matt Slater of The Athletic has alluded to an Athletic piece on Swindon, which if anything like their Oldham expose, will be full of new unheard revelations.

How often does he release his content

Maybe Cowley38 is getting a little warm.

The FA charge also makes you think back to the first few years of Power and his incessant need to be in full control of recruitment. Was this the case so he could choose players under 'favourable' agents...

I've heard a rumour that things will turn out alright in the end. Can't give a time frame or any further information I'm afraid.

I heard from my mate Chinese Dave, who heard two old ladies on a bus talking about Lee Power. Turns out he hates cheese which quite frankly is scandalous if true.

No Gruyére daydreams for Lausanne Lee then!

What is about to come has more holes than Emmental, runs deeper than cured Camembert  and stinkier than Limburger.

Ooh, "Limburger Lee" has a good ring to it!

Wonder whether we've settle the unpaid wages dispute with Phil Brown yet, I'm sure he'll get a call from any journos doing a piece on this fiasco.

Hi All
I thought you would all like to know that in a joint letter between the Trust and the Official Supporters Club (OSC) we have sent a letter today to both the FA and EFL relating to the breaches and asking for them to ensure if found guilty any punishment is applied to the individuals themselves and not that of the football club. Article and letter here: https://truststfc.tv/truststfc-and-osc-write-to-the-fa-and-efl-relating-to-fa-charge-concerns-and-ask-for-club-not-to-be-punished-if-breaches-are-proven/

cheers Jan

Is this something that could be taken into account in any decision making process?

Good work!

Probably not but it certainly doesn't hurt and, I suppose, opens up an avenue for dialogue between these regulatory bodies and the fans of the club.

The sentiment is great, but, the proof will be in precedent of the prosecution of such cases it may be cases where perpetrators rather than clubs have been sanctioned don't get the publicity, but I cannot think of any examples where a club has not been sanctioned, albeit would be delighted to be proven wrong.

I don't know anything about the regulation of clubs and those involved in their ownership etc. As a lay person, I'm not sure how you cannot sanction a club as well the individuals in question.  It is perhaps stating the obvious that I hope that this is wrong.

I am unfortunately similarly limited in specialist knowledge, but from experience of dealing with legal matters I am inclined to agree, as it stands STFC is Seebeck is Swinton Reds is Power/Standing/Clem.

As I noted when this all kicked off, the fact that the club have not achieved anything through their owners actions is not really relevant.

I think you only have to look at his silky paisley neckerchief to know he's doing alright  ;)

Superb - great work.

Great work, and can do no harm. But when Power et al took the actions they did, they were acting in their capacity as officers of the club - so the club is in breach. I can’t argue with the sentiment that the fans shouldn’t be punished, but that would need an overhaul of FA rules.

Without doubt you are right.
One minor addition and again would it hold any credibility, Power technically passed the fit and proper owner test. I guess the EFL did all the proper checks.
Again if his actions were during his tenure, which they appear to be it will us Supporters to be left clutching at straws just like we did in 1990.

Thanks.

It is so good to know that we have such a competent and committed voice for the fans.

Great work. My only slight criticism is that it might have been worth writing personally to the chairs of FA and EFL. "Dear Sir or Madam" sounds like you're writing to the council to get off a parking ticket.
Sorry if that's harsh.

You absolute savage!

You can't say that  :eek: Fucking hell admins

Keeping a close eye, thats getting nasty now!

 :badmood:

I don't post here often but it's that kind of awful abuse that has driven me from this forum.

Sent from my CLT-L09

Won't somebody think of the children?

Isn't the point of an open letter that it isn't directed at one or two particular people - so Sir or Madam should cover things unless you are aligned to the non-binary over sensitivity these days..   :headhurts:

Fucking hell mate, steady on

I would actually be inclined to agree with this most British of Criticisms!

Good to see they got the sincerely/faithfully bit right as well!

According to Twitter, Michael Standing has ceased to be a director from First Touch Pro Management as of yesterday.

It's (and I'm sure you know this but for the benefit of others), Kieran Maguire of the Price of Football, citing a screenshot of a Companies House filing as a source, so a bit more reliable than "according to Twitter", more like "according to a filling at Companies House" (unless we think Kieran Maguire has started photoshopping CH filings!)

This is interesting - presumably Standing is expecting to be banned from acting as an agent and is hoping by standing down to insulate his agency from further harm. I wonder if that might point a way for our own and Power's situation?

A quick look at the CH website confirms this

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06749188/officers (https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06749188/officers)

is John his brother?

Or removing a conflict of interest to take a controlling interest in stfc

:) yeah ok..

I did wonder

John is his middle name

Sorry yes me saying 'according to twitter' was probably misleading to be fair. Cheers for the detailed clarification which makes much more sense :)

in that list of "people" John is a separate person!

A quick look at the website will address any confusion on this

No point being an agent or director if you end up being banned from football ;)

Or trying to pull a fast one and claiming there was no conflict and that he just hadn't got around to removing himself previously. Nothing would surprise me at the moment....

Anyone else just expecting more bad news whenever they look at social media?

I understand from this forum that some news/revelations are due this week.

yeah.

feel like Eeyore right now...

wtf is going on here (Twitter)

@socialPolly


"Are you covering today's Court hearing re: the #STFC shenanigans?

As a Supporter's Trust, we've just (1hr ago) been excommunicated by the Club as a result of providing a witness statement against the current owner that was included in the papers for today's injunction hearing."

Renewal of injunction to prevent the club being put into admin?

I'd imagine so Paul.

We'll see

That's not quite out in the open yet flash. the contents of the injunction have not yet been communicated.

Fair point, I jumped the gun a bit.

Deleted

The Trust have published a press release re the excommunication and today's court hearing.

https://truststfc.tv/press-release-from-truststfc-swindon-town-fc-cease-all-communications-with-truststfc/

as you were

Pope Lee I getting his revenge in early I see. Perhaps the trust could go full Morshead and just become a cricket supporter's trust instead?

Cowley was right ..

just saying..

Yay.

He got one!

Thanks PP, do we know if the applicants were successful in obtaining an injunction to stop Power putting the club into administration? Because presumably if they weren't, we are about to go into administration.

And in the timescale he suggested too.

... or get sold to ABLE. Which I think is the real reason behind it.

as if able are real

I'm led to believe they are.

Just how 'good' they are - I've no idea.

There is no mention of injunctions in that short write up. I wonder whether some confusion has arisen as to the nature of any application.

able are real - well blow me down with a feather.

There were already two injunctions in place, were there not?  Any application would have been to overcome those injunctions - Power can neither sell nor place the club in Admin without such approval.

I might have misheard something along the way.

It is implied in the reference to putting evidence before the court. And a Trust board member tweeted about getting excommunicated following "today's injunction hearing"

https://twitter.com/socialPolly/status/1382367659669475330

Apparently so:

https://twitter.com/socialPolly/status/1382385093679923204

So, what does that mean.

Does the court get to choose which?

FWIW I heard on Monday that power was looking to remove an injunction to prevent him from selling the club. Havent heard about admin though

Fuck knows. I'd read it as an application for an injunction to prevent both outcomes but I may have misconstrued that

This may be an application for an order to enter administration (rather than via the out of court route).

I think that the standing injunction did not prevent whichever company going into admin (whereas I think the axis one did). So, I suppose there may have also been some attempt to restrain an application for an administration order.


Edit: I have now seen the posts above.

Sounds again to me like Power is trying to overcome an injunction.

I don't know any detail but there may be some confusion/misunderstanding around the substantive legal issues.

Doesn't "A.B.L.E Company" just stand for "Administration Be Lee's Exit"  :hmmm:

Anyway, had a few people ask about the profile/avatar. It may seem a bit "cheese" or "embarrassing" but at this, stage I'd happily wear a cap with "Power Out" on it.

If anyone wishes to use it, feel free. I think it dipicts everything about the current state of the club, specifically those who are currently majority owner(s)...

If the standing injunction restrains a sale or administration, LP would have to apply to vary/alter the terms of the injunction.  The application would have to set out his case on why the court should do so.  CM/MS would have the opportunity to resist the application.

What would be the reasons that Power might want admin? Surely a sale to Morfuni is more profitable?

Would anybody knowledgeable in these matters know if a court is likely to accept administration when it is avoidable? Bearing in mind this is not the typical administration application. (There's not usually an injunction in place)

The court don't get involved in deciding if admin a route the company is allowed to take unless there has been a winding up petition.

Power could name himself as creditor and get more money...

We don't know what the issues/arguments are.

The court can make any order it sees fit.  To make an adminstration order I think that the court has to be satisfied that:-

1. The company cannot pay its debts

2. It is reasonably likely that administration will achieve one or more of the purposes set out in para 3 of Schedule B1 to the Insolvency Act 1986.

They are:

- Rescue of the company as a going concern.
- Achieve a better result for the creditors as a whole than would be likely if the company were wound up.
- The realisation of some or all of the company's property to make a distribution to one or more secured or preferential creditors.

To sell and not have to pay back full amounts owed.
Able likely a smokescreen with a silent partner no other than Mr Lee Power.
Going to get rather shitty now.

It’s certainly not all going to go Powers way.
Clem holds 15% and this would be considered in any Court decision, a foot in the door.
Power is on the ropes, the run way is becoming considerably smaller.
Proof of funds could hold credibility, just saying.

The shameless scrabblings of a cornered and desperate man, you nearly got there but ultimately you fucked it up.

Sent from my SM-A125F

Surely if we didn’t go into admin and Power sold up the debt becomes the new owners problem? So admin still doesn’t make any sense to me.

Something I’d like to add - I’d not wish this upon anyone (even Oxford). Everyone has the right to support a club, which isn’t being used as an asset stripping opportunity. To do this within this year will compound the mental health battles people have faced within the last year and it really just does show what an absolute twat Power is. You only have to look as far as someone like Claude at AFTV. For some people, their football club is the main thing they have in life.

And Power could make lay to a claim of being one of only two significant direct creditors?  I assume he could.

He clearly wants to sell the club and do it without the Standing case having been decided yet - what we don't know is whether he is selling it to a Brand new owner, or something legal but shady that transitions ownership one step removed.  I assume Admin was raised to spook the Court as a reason why it would be in their interests to waive the original injunction.

Any informed buyer will ensure the seller takes responsibility for all liabilities that arise before the date of transfer. A buyer normally carries out proper due diligence to find out where the gremlins are in a business. But due diligence assumes that there are documents to properly review. The absence of proper paperwork means Morfuni is would be foolish not to demand indemnities for any liabilities that haven’t been laid on the table for him to see. In practice, that means whoever takes over could well have a few years of chasing Power for money he owes....

This is a personal vindictive battle.
Power would rather put the club in admin and thus ensuring that all full sums owed would be considerably less. Clearly doesn’t give a shit about the “vehicle” he has used - Swindon Town Football Club.
Hope he gets the lot thrown at him.

This. What happened at Bury was absolutely shocking and the Supporters pay the ultimate price.

But was tragic,  but ultimately  all the sympathy in the world makes no difference to the outcome.

What would be good is a coordinate effort in getting shot of this parasite that has a chance of success.

I'm not qualified to know how to do  that.


e..g.
will not buying a season ticket/boycott  all revenue streams for now increase his desperation, or will it kill the club?

what else can we do?

I presume Power doesn’t want to pay what is owed to Standing - either 42.5% of any sale or any side deals they may have had regarding divvying up transfer fees.

Need to work out if a club sale whilst in admin is better/worse than selling and settling his debts. Bear in mind, Wigan went for just £3m out of Admin.

Didn't have to wait long in the end, did I...

What a clusterfuck.

You’ve gotta wonder how many authorities (football and non-football) are keeping a watching brief on this.  With some of the shady characters lurking in the background literally anything is possible, at some point the National press will show some interest as the more you hear the more it becomes like the plot of a far fetched east end gangster film.

it's a genuine concern.

The scale could be anywhere between mere financial ruin and full on Godfather..

"You come to me on the day my son collects his starting position competition win"..

Yep, I'm just waiting for Brick Top to show up and threaten at least one of us with being fed to the "piggies".

In all seriousness, I'm beginning to wonder if the BFI would be interested in funding a screenplay based around this? If Dole Queue dancers from Sheffield, The women of Dagenham, Drug culture in Embra and Punks from the 1980s Notts can join the list of classic British made films then why can't "The Circus of SN1".

Also urge any of you to read, if you haven't already "The Miracle of Castel di Sangro". I have mentioned it on here before and it's something Andrew Hawes and I touched on during this STFC season of bizarreness....on and off the field. Some of the things in that book would be quite reflective for goings on at Town...allegedly :)

Just signed up for the trust, it’s only small but I feel like I need to do something. Can’t bare to see what is unfolding 😔

ditto today.

minimum membership is just £1 a month

https://pay.gocardless.com/flow/RE001AX1P9AFEQVC86RZ4TSN9QA2PYY8

I can’t seem to get on to their website to sign up. Anyone else having an issue?

You can try this link, it seemed to work okay for me.

https://www.redarmyfund.co.uk/sign-up/

Do we know anything about ABLE? All I seem to recall is a very poorly written letter - almost as if an American version of dopey Lee had dictated it - about a year ago.

Well he denied their existence at first, but now seems to be ackowledging them... it's sus as fuck that we know zero about them, other than Power is insistent that he must sell to them and them alone.

This lot wasn’t it:

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ma/001385380

Boston property developer:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/17/business/developer-set-buy-widett-circle-potential-mega-project/%3foutputType=amp

Makes me feel uneasy that these guys are purely real estate and property development.

Not to far removed from digger are they?

Difference being is that "digger" actually has some link to commercial sporting venues rather than domestic real estate. Ok, even if it was just a few plug sockets, U-bends and rolls of PTFE tape, it still is a high end development contract that AXIS secured.

I think if we'd had similar "achievement", many of us would drop it into conversation if talking to people who were considering developing sports stadia :)

A developer and married to the daughter of Abbey Groups Chief Exec who is also Managing Partner at the Boston Celtics, Bob Epstein.

I always though it was this lot - providing janitorial services

https://ableserve.com/

I’ve got a few queries if anybody can help

Why is Power insistent he sells to Able and not Clem - especially as Clem reckons he’s offered more than Able?

For anyone thinking of buying the club it would be way cheaper to buy it out of Admin.

What is the advantage to Power by putting the club in Admin? Any money owed to him, either personally or via other companies he owns, would see him only get 20% in the pound back as he would not be a football related creditor or a preferred creditor. I realise it would screw over Standing/Clem. Can Clem, as a minority shareholder, prevent Power/admin entirely?

Why  is Power saying he wants to sell whilst at the same time applying to put the club in Admin - again, after giving an undertaking after last year’s court case preventing him from doing so.

Is it significant that it is Clem and not Standing who has applied for the latest injunction stopping Power? May he have settled OOC with Standing and what’s the significance of him resigning from his company earlier this week.

Wigan entered Admin this season yet weren’t docked points. Why was that?

Regarding the CG. Would the council still offer the Trust 50% ownership no matter who the next owner is?

Someone on the Facebook group did some.digging and found that William Kerravouri (the 'frontman' from the leaked documents), his father in law who he works for at The Abbey Group was worth $14billion, and in the theme of recent days, allegedly! Same chap that's part of the Boston Celtics ownership structure.

From looking into them last year, I'm sure I read they were working on a stadium with the New England Patriots... So ownership desire could be based on County Ground renovation, or new stadium for us, in order to maybe expand in to stadium business in the UK maybe.

If Power is desperate to sell to them - and them only - I’d be asking myself why?

He really is an absolute turd.

That's definitely the big, and worrying question. Has to be something about the deal which makes it personally more financially incentivised for Power, or it's just out of pure spite towards Clem.

Don't believe anything on there.  The Abbey group is not worth anything like that, according to Dunn and Bradstreet  it has estimated revenues of $3.15m and has 10 employees.

Robert Epstein is the front man and managing partner of the Boston Celtics and has been since 2002 but is not the main money man.   That said he does of course know an awful lot of exceedingly wealthy people!

Either that or they are more likely to keep schtum about his tenure.

Yes it's odd.  You'd have thought bidding the 2 off each other to get the price up would be the sensible thing to do.  I can't see it being pig headedness, he's not stupid.

Perhaps he has and Able just want it to be kept quiet......

I think Power has a week to respond to the FA charges. Maybe this has accelerated things. What if Standing has already fessed up to the FA? That drops Power right in it.

Combination of both, silent partner to new venture (this is Lee Power) and spite against those who have challenged him.
Just hope this doesn’t drag on for a long time as the on field issues will become progressively worse.

On the subject of silent partner, I wonder if that would be similar to some of the recent club sales such as Ipswich where the selling owner retains a small % stake in the club (i.e. 5%). Or is it more sinister than that?

Andy Holt confined this morning that Accrington Stanley budget was £1.3mn this season, which was judged by the EFL as not the lowest budget. Wonder if our original budget was one of these judged lower.

I'm sure our budget for the 2014/15 playoff campaign was £1.5-£1.8mn, which was with ~7000 fans per week. With clubs shelling out more than that without fans this season, makes your mind wander at where the revenue was going at the time...

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/19233262.lee-power-apparently-preparing-sell-swindon-town-court-told/

Thanks buddy, appears I was using the wrong website

Have been doing that this season and have joined the trust this morning too. However, I can’t just watch our beloved club possibly become the next Bury. I don’t expect everyone to agree but I for one fully intend to be at The County Ground Tuesday and protest in a peaceful and legal manner. Ideally I’d love to see a couple of hundred fans chanting ‘Power Out’ and getting some media coverage. Totally fed up with all these rouge chairmen in football and we’ve had more than our fair share.

Fan Power. Not Lee Power.

That has much more of a 'being sold' angle than a 'going into admin' angle.

Which puts more focus on 'who the fuck are ABLE company?'.

They are as theakston posted, a Boston-based spin-off of a property development company owned by William Kerravouri. Unless you meant, who else is behind them and him?

I would just like to defend LP.  He has always had the best interests of the club at heart.  It looks to me like he has been too trusting of others in his informal dealings around club financing.  If he wants Able to be the buyer, it is because he believes it to be in the best interests of STFC's future after his stewardship.  Any suggestion that there may be some backhander or other unrecorded agreement with Able is reprehensible.

Now that, is satire.

I think you need to be on the fb group to get the bites your looking for  :clap: :D

You’ve also got to question ABLE’s motives for the sheer fact they are still interested in buying after waiting for almost 2 years, what’s really in it for them?

my queries are simple:

1 why remain in the background?

2. why swindon when other opportunities are around.

sceptical speculation head on

  - we got the letter
  - it may or may not have gone further
  - they buggered off pretty quickly after covid hit/the stench from the club hit.

basically I don't trust Power to use this 'sale' to see it 'fall through' and put the club and holding in admin, this reducing his liabilities and stuffing Clem/standing.

Can anyone think of a reason why Able are remaining totally silent given the current position. why not work with all the stakeholders to try and resolve the log jam

obviously the truth is - we don't really know

Thing is with all this ABLE stuff, setting aside the (rather large) fact that no one seems to have a clue who they really are, I still don't really get what the appeal is to them.

The Council are only going to sell the ground to the club in a JV with the Trust, thus ABLE if they buy Swinton Reds will still only own 50% of the real estate, and have to deal with the fans trust, likewise if the club goes into Admin I cannot see the Council entertaining any deal that involves Power or his chosen successors.

There are considerably easier ways to make money from property than this shit show.

Yeah it is mightily suspicious an external company with no ties to the area would hang on tooth and nail for ~ 2 years for a lower league football club purchase, when there are plenty of others out there to be bought with less baggage and could be done in a shorter time frame. If they wanted to just purchase a football club, they'd have moved on, but instead, it seems nothing but Swindon for them. If their interest is even still real that is...

Ipswich are being sold and, I believe, the council own Portman Road. So owning the real estate isn’t the prime factor there.

I think it must be certain that Standing does, indeed, own 50% of Power’s share of the club as it was him who brought all these shenanigans to light when he stopped Power trying to flog the club without his permission.

Doing this he must have known the personal consequences of a certain F.A. investigation. Being banned was probably less severe then losing his considerable investment in STFC. I again presume his recent resignation from First Touch is in anticipation of an F.A. ban, which brings me to ask that if he tells all to the FA is that sufficient to prove his ownership claim over STFC - thus shafting Power and his attempt to put us in Admin? Or will the court case decide that outcome?

I find it easy to see why a wealthy person/business would want to get involved with lower league English clubs that have potential.

How many opportunities have come around since we first heard about ABLE?

Ipswich?
Wigan?

(I know there's probably more than two, it's just all that comes to mind now)

How much did these cost to buy into? What other factors were there that might affect interest? Why Swindon and not them?

TBF that could also be levelled at Clem Morfuni too. Apparently there is a lot of interest from US investors in buying into English football because they see our clubs as being comparatively cheap to acquire compared to the costs of buying into sports teams in the US and they think our TV rights and commercial deals are underexploited.

I don't think it does. Or at least no more than what was said in open court. Standing's whole case is that he owned 50% of the club. That is why he and Power have been charged.

There can only be 1 reason, kick backs.

Just listened to Kieran Maguire’s latest podcast on the Price of Football.

He seems to think a points deduction is possible but not probable.

Was thinking about this. What if any new owner continues the deal with the council and purchases the CG 50-50 with the Trust. Then, a couple of years down the line and the culmination of a plan, the club ceases to exist. No club, no Trust, one CG owner with no pesky football club getting in the way.

https://www.mylife.com/william-keravuori/e439896732018

Interesting, William DOES have Court, Arrest or Criminal Records and William DOES have Lawsuits, Liens, Evictions or Bankruptcies apparently.

Sounds Fit and Proper

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/17917935.us-firm-makes-7m-bid-buy-swindon-town-club-denies-knowledge/

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/sport/17920067.lee-power-states-swindon-town-not-sale-no-offers-made-despite-advers-7million-us-bid-discovery/

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/sport/17973711.documents-show-able-company-swindon-llcs-interest-purchasing-swindon-town-club-continues-deny-approach-made/

Frankly, it stinks. Something doesn't add up.

Surely the trust will still exist even if the club doesn’t? As we’ve seen, the club and the ground are separate entities.

What would be the point of a Supporters Trust if there is no club to support?

Fits our DNA then.

If it had a 50% stake in the ground, then at least in part to ensure that was disposed of correctly. Or to restart a phoenix club that could play there. LL is correct, the club and ground are separate. And if the legal entity that is Swindon Town Football Club Ltd went shitside, there would still be people who wanted to support a club representing the town of Swindon that played at the County Ground.

Technically, none, however, the trust can still exist sans club. More importantly the ‘trust’ will still have a 50% stake in the freehold.

On the upside, he's apparently not a sex offender.

Anyone close to James Dyson? Could really, really do with a benefactor like him right now.

Involved with Bath Rugby, don't think he's ever shown any interest in football.

He is a democrat though, that's going upset a few.

Sent from my SM-A125F

Tory Billionaire snob.

Even if he were, I'm sure he'd still easily pass as fit and proper.  It ain't a high bar.

Is that the right guy?

You can get a little more stalkerish if needed.......

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/78-Montgomery-St-Boston-MA-02116/59172297_zpid/?

It's worth a few bob, nice view from the rooftop garden.

Yes it is the same chap.

To be fair, in america they give you a criminal record for crossing the street in the wrong place!

To be fair he’d need to have a 1st degree murder conviction to have a worst background than some of the individuals lurking in the shadows at the club.

Bankruptcy is also a legitimate financial tool over here with little stigma attached.

Great Western Reds are working to remove sponser money from the club until Power is gone. Apparently 3 companies have already committed.

 :hmmm: Not sure if that's a good move or not? It's all confusing this.

Can you explain who Great Western Reds are?

Independent STFC supporters group. They have in the past arranged a number of visual displays on matchdays. Clem apparently had got quite friendly with them before realising they weren't as close to the club as he had perceived.

Which I assume is different from the trust?

Yes.

I'm not either, but I suppose the thinking is to try and strangle any income to Power and force his hand.

Every little helps.

Last one. Do they work with the trust or plough their own furrow?

Bit of both from what i understand.

I'm really not too sure to be honest.

The Great Western Reds seemed to make an impressive start with banners in The Town End along with ticker tape etc to create an atmosphere. I personally think they took a bit of a hit when they tried to mix polictics with football when they created Refugees Welcome banners, which obviously was not representative of all Town fans.

Their ‘leader’ is Jaybox isn’t it who became Clem’s lap dog for a period of time. Think they got upset when they weren’t allowed to do some kind of display or allowed to leave their flags in the ground and from that point forward acted like a scorned ex girlfriend towards the club. They annoyed a lot of people when they tried to make out they were the voice of the fans and represented everyone’s views, and yeah then there was the politics bit....

I used to stick up for JayBox on here when he was getting grief over his flags.

Then it transpired that he's a bit of a bellend.

JayBox is me without the beer and 15 years later.

Rob Tuck without the beer ..... nope, can't picture that, sorry.

Nah he's sound

Sent from my CLT-L09

I'm not sure, similar sentiments on here and from my viewpoint too. Initially good intentions but eventually came across as a bit too self entitled (aren't we all to some degree) and a knobber.

In the words of Stormzy a bit too "Big for ya boots".

In defence, I think the outset of GWR with their fleggs is well intended and did create some kind of added atmosphere. It's all the being up the arse of N-L level type players like Jamie Sendles-White. Even trying to force the issue of getting them signed up again. Which is ironic because you can guarantee that Jayboxx and his "crew" (puke) will be up in arms and waving their flags about, in regards to Taylor Curran  :nod:

That's all fine, of course we can all have a viewpoint but when that viewpoint is trying to act as a mouthpiece for all fans, it might be better to actually consult all fans about it first. GWR have never done this in my eyes so I can see why they don't sit "well" with some. As I say, slightly self-entitled.

I do like fleggs though :)

I’ve just signed up to the Trust. Like many here, it’s a small thing to do in the grand scheme of things but something we feel necessary to do to make any difference we can

My affiliation with STFC is different to a lot of you. I’m not a Swindon native. I’ve no idea really the impact of the club on the local community. I became a Swindon fan through chance really. Parents divorced and my Dad moved to Swindon. Lived in Old Town. Way back when I was 15. We started going to games as a way to spend time together and became season tickets holders and went home and away.  In recent years our attendance has lessened, due to the normal reasons. Kids coming along, money that was spent at the football prioritised elsewhere. But our love for the club has never dipped

Swindon Town Football Club means a lot to me. It was a way to see my Dad. It was a distraction from being a child of a messy divorce. It was something I eventually fell in love with

I’m not quite sure the point I’m making here. I just felt like typing. I dont often on this forum. More of a reader. I guess the club helped me through a tough period of my life and it’s been a huge factor ever since. To see what’s going on right now is heartbreaking. We all just want the club to do well

Whatever happens, I’ll be STFC for life now. When we can start to attend games again. I’ll be there. Likely on my own as my Dad won’t make many games these days. But I’ll sit there, in the Arkells ( we were TE ST holders but I’m too old for all that standing and singing now) and I’ll make that 130 mile round trip to watch us gladly. As long as we have a club

it's good to sometimes just type. things out.

I like hearing how fans became fans, even if it's under not ideal circumstances.

The club is like an old friend I could rely on in difficult times. Now seeing it go through tough times itself, you feel compelled to help, you know?

I do. Nice one on joining the trust

Cool. I like hearing the different stories behind becoming a Town fan. Thanks for sharing. I Bronzed with the Trust this morning.

Thanks for the ramblings - With all the negativity that surrounds the club at the moment you've captured why there is a future and why fans will return once all this shit is over.

It was Stoke away under Paolo for me.  Not for me but because my daughter who had shown little interest in going before then went to that game with me and has been hooked ever since.   Yes it's a form of child abuse getting them into this shit, but at the same time something that different generations can experience and care so pationately about together is utterly unique.

I also joined the Trust today.
My first game was standing in the Town End with my dad watching Jimmy Dickenson play for Pompey.   
This situation is so so wrong letting cockney c@nt fuck over our once proud football club.
Like Banbury, I am totally aware this situation is going to end very badly and I think it will almost certainly finish the club.
Power was and is an opportunist no different to M Diamond, Jed and others who took the people of Swindon as mugs.
Thank goodness he was unable to buy the County Ground as well.
Stay well
COYMRs
 

Agree, spoke to him a few times and he is just excitable. He does need to reign in the whole wait and see type attitude but he is harmless enough

Too old for standing and singing!?

What about standing, moaning and hollering abuse?

If theres an age limit on that, im fucked!



Good post Fella.

Times like these the one positive is the Supporters unite.
Need to stick together, the Trust can act as the United voice as far as I am concerned.
Lots going on.

There's been quite a few bizarre statements from chairmen/owners in the past few weeks or months.

It's about time we had one of our own. And it is Friday...

This

Anyway, happy 8th year anniversary of this tweet and facebook post.

good spot.

well not good ..