Thetownend.com

Just said on bbc oxford we are taking him on trial.

No, just no

I bloody well hope we arent taking him on trial, should never play football again.

If tans is on a wind-up, so be it.

If not, it's going to make TEF interesting.

Why are BBC Pox talking about us?

And....No.

Bbc oxford news said it

Need something to make TEF go into meltdown over the summer  :D

Tans is on the wind up me thinks.

Just posting a video

is he any good?

He doesn't have an Eastern European sounding name so I'm afraid it's a no from me.

I saw him play quite a few times while living in Plymouth, McCormick was definitely Championship standard.

Uh-oh I'm entertaining a tans rumour. I'm with Fola, he's not Balkan.

I heard this was on the cards a few weeks ago... he shares agents with someone who mentioned it. I assumed i was having my leg pulled. Maybe not.

I think I'd go all sanctimonious if we signed him, it wouldn't sit well with me (and many others).

It might be a very good move if true.

Must be terrible living with that on your conscience.

I think many of us have made some really bad mistakes in our lives, but this one has resulted in 2 children being killed. Must have been awful for the family and awful for McCormick to live with.

When did he get out of jail?

Its said on the bbc oxford news he has been training with us for a few months whilst on day release.

Now ive lost the fucking video on my phone, says there is nothing on the sd card

;)

hang on, got it back

Shall we sign lee hughes as well? double whammy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY5InJ3sXfM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Safe (or not)

Appears genuine. Not sure if trolling.

It is true.

Heard it with my own ears. Email the club?!

If he's been training with us, why the need to give him a trial?

No idea.

Anyone know when the 1830 bbc oxford news will be uploaded to iplayer or whatever? You can see ot on there

I agree with this. Whilst frankly, I would rather some other club signed him, on the other hand, when someone does something wrong and goes to prison for it, are people saying that that person should never have the right to earn a living again?

I've gotten really, really pissed and then driven a car before, I suspect others on the TEF have also. I learned my lesson the easy way.

The only thing making me any different to a drink driver that has killed somebody is that I got lucky, they didn't

spot on

It's fuel to the fire for our rivals but who cares about them and if it's trolling, it's pretty good trolling.

The death of those two lads will be on his conscious for the rest of his life, what a horrible thought.

You could argue this, passionately, either way (retribution vs rehabilitation).  On balance, I don't like it.  Regardless of any remorse he may now feel, could anyone honestly take their kids to a game and sing this guy's name from the stands?  Only an initial gut feeling, but doesn't feel right to me.

I'm still trying to figure out how tans managed this one, I reckon he knows someone quite handy with editing software

It's no different to Lee Hughes and we know how passionately people dish abuse at him and Oldham/Notts County. Town would be no different (if this is true and we actually signed him).

This may be something of nothing.

He shouldn't be denied the opportunity to make a living.

I just hope it isn't here.

Did he, like Hughes, do a runner from the scene? Genuine question. If not, I don't think you can say it's the same.

I don't think he did no.

He's convicted for killing two kids, he and the club will get crucified on the terraces (and that's what I'm referring to).

Confirmed by BBC wilts according to their twitter

Exactly, cue awkward questions from the kids.....

Yes, everybody deserves another chance, no doubt about it, and as Flashheart says, most of us have done similar acts of dumbness, but, the big difference is his second chance is played out in the public eye, through various medias, and just adds to the attention the situation would bring, this aint fair on the parents, as there loss is irreplacable and unimaginable, no matter how much remorse he shows.

If he was working in Tesco, or on a building site then it would be a different matter altogether. Good luck to the guy, i worked with NACRO for a while and am a staunch believer in rehabilitation over punishment, but rehabilitation in cases such as this could do with a bit of sensitivity and common sense.

Why the fuck are Oxford breaking this news anyway?

I can't find myself to hate somebody for making a mistake.....

But we don't need a goalie. There's no need to attract so much negative attention.

I wonder what the reaction would be if we found out that Ritchie or Caddis had done something very naughty years ago?

p.s. I'm not saying they have but it would be an interesting debate.

I'm with Nemo.  The adverse publicity and the ridicule that would follow from the terraces could only be detrimental to the group cause.

We get enough stick because of PDC's politics.

I think it's probably additional hassle the club should try and avoid.

Has Lee Hughes been detrimental to the Notts County cause?

Just seems like alot of negative attention for someone who will likely end up a second fiddle keeper.

Yep

Perhaps there's some agent wheeling and dealing behind the scenes that could involve another player or two, with McCormick as a bargaining chip.

I don't know, has he? I'm not writing about Luke McCormick: the person nor the crime itself just the PR (I know that is what your asking).

Di Canio will no doubt deflect any attention.

We don't need a keeper imo. We have 2 pro keepers and if neeed be can use the loan market

Luke McCormick made a mistake, one that I'm sure several people on here have made in the past including myself.

Several of us have been caught out, shaken up and made to realise what a stupid stupid mistake drink driving is (regardless of amounts consumed, whether it's first thing the morning after or not, etc.) Luckily for me I got caught out by crashing in to someone I knew the morning after, who was very cool about it from the start. Although what happened in the actual accident was 50/50, i took full responsibility for the crash and will make sure never to make the same mistake again. The excess to my insurance company and losing my no claims bonus were the only casualties, I consider myself very very lucky.

Others which include several people I know and I'm sure other TEF members were less lucky, maybe got caught by the police with a breath test and lost their licences, maybe even in the more serious cases crashed and caused injury.

Luke McCormick killed two kids by his mistake....but he is human and we all make mistakes. It could have easily been me or anyone else who has made that same mistake. These are people you know, friends and family who have no ounce of malice in their body.

He has had to deal with his actions, has served time and will have to live with it hanging over him for the rest of his life. Comparing him to Lee Hughes is harsh to say the least. McCormick was said to be in tears repeatedly apologising at the scene while Lee Hughes fled, fucked off and tried to get away with it. Lee Hughes is a nasty, poor excuse for a human who is currently being charged with sexual assault just to add to things.

I don't know exactly what the point of this post is, because I'm not saying the whole thing should just be completely forgotten and we move on...but just have a little perspective which some people fail to.

Yep, as long as Lanzano is on the books it's a odd move.

...but it's only a trial.

I think we are all jumping the gun here, he hasn't signed, he's joining on trial.
I would bet my house we do not sign him permanently, and he is only with us to get fit.

I'm don't think he has.

I think Oldham took the brunt of the abuse of that occasion.

You know what people are like, a couple of months of mass hysteria followed by normality.

The added attention isn't all bad. For a start it has got people on here talking about how fucking stupid it is to drink and drive - I'm no angel either, did it once when very drunk, somehow managed get home without causing an accident and still can't believe what a twat I was. He is also in a position where he can stop others from making the same mistake, potentially saving lives in the process.

He did something stupid, has served his time and should now be allowed to get on with his life.

No thanks, dont want him in our team I would really struggle to support him and I think oposing fans would give so much shit an d this could be something that would split the squad into those that accept him and those that dont and affect the harmony at the club....no thanks not for me

Well if he's been training with the club already then the players will know him already and division shouldn't be an issue.

It's purely down to the debate between those cannot find a place in society for someone who committed a crime and those who feel that he's served his time.

The club would no doubt say that it's a footballing decision and people deserve a chance.

Some fans will say that they won't go to matches but numbers will oddly stay the same.

Also, it's just a trial.

We all remember Jimmy Davis with absolute fondness but this could so easily have happened to him that day.

I don't want this child killing cunt anywhere near our club.

Fuck the namby pamby "ooh he made a mistake" bollocks. He can fuck off and rot in hell.

Tell us what you really think batch!  ;D

What are you saying Batch?

I think thats the first time ive ever seen you use the word cunt before batch 8)

This isn't the time for fence sitting Batch.

the guy made a dreadful mistake. He'll have to live with it until he dies but it was an accident,not an act of intent

He drove while pissed and killed 2 kids. I don't really give a fuck what he has to live with. Its not like he got up next day still over the limit is it.

So that's a maybe then Batch?

I would  rather have David James...or Craig Farr

Its probably best I say out this thread after this post, but I can't believe Wray even entertained the thought even if a deal doesn't come off.

If that meant PDC got the hump and left and we re-appointed Malpas  - I'd rather that than appoint McCormick.  I think that sums up how I feel on the subject.

Anything actually official on this?

Dont be silly.

I don't mean to be antagonistic, after all a player that's just on trial isn't worth it

But have you never had a beer and got behind the wheel? Or know somebody else that has?

BBC wilts is the closest thing I've seen so far

Ssshhh it's kicking off.

I got off easy too, once before, never again. Managed to pile my car into a lamp post, lesson learned.

Nope, never have & wouldn't get in a car with anyone I knew was driving drunk.

I know we haven't signed him yet but if he did sign I for one would never cheer his name

But do you know somebody else that has never gotten behind the wheel while drunk, whether you were in the car or not?

I owe you an apology.

1 beer yes, no more. So no to both. Sounds holier than thou, not mean to but the truth is even when I have been pavement crawlingly drunk I've realised driving would be stupid.]

And I can't say I know anyone who has. Actually I lie - my alcoholic ex-stepdad. And we shopped him. But thats another story I don't wish to share.

But even 1 beer nowadays is over the limit.

No it isn't. Well maybe it is for a strong pint.

It all depends what you drink.

Depends entirely on the person. One beer could make some people over the "legal limit", whilst other people with a stronger tolerance to alcohol could have 3 pints and still be fine.

There were a group of us that hung around together as lads, and as far as I know none of us ever did, however I don't suppose any of them would publicise the fact.

We took it in turns to drive & the nominated driver stayed away from drinking, Either that or we travelled in taxis.

That said, we have driven back from the pub with far too many people in a car.

Yes it does, apologies, 5%+ must take you close.

McCormick was over twice the limit when he was breathalised.

I was so drunk that I hit a parked car and didn't even notice. I was pulled over by a couple of coppers who told me what I did, and still I didn't believe them, not until they got me back home and pointed out the red strip of paint along my silver motor that shouldn't have been there. I was very, very, very drunk and it was extremely irresponsible of me to even attempt to drive.

The parked that I hit could so easily have been a couple of kids, or perhaps even a bus stop full off kids waiting.

Am I evil?

My uncle once gave me a lift home whilst drunk; scariest moment of my life. He was on his phone texting, occasionally looking up to correct the positioning of his car on the road and swerving all over the place.

Nah you're not evil, you're just an idiot. Unless your intention was to get drunk and drive, then you are.

Having read through the thread again my conclusion is this:

Does he deserve a second chance? Yes, of course.

Should that second chance be with us? No, we're not that desparate for a keeper and do not need all that accompanying baggage. Let AFC Telford or Alfreton Town (or whoever) sign him - he will get his second chance, it just does not need to be with us.

How must Phil Smith be feeling now?

No. Stupid and lucky. And you seem to realise it now.

But you didn't kill any children. Had you have I'd feel the same about you. You could have, but you didn't.

Look I really am going out of this thread now. I can only see me pissing people off. That's not my intention. My views are clear.

Drunk

Yes

The difference between your story and Luke McCormack's is that no one died in yours.  I appreciate that he didn't set out to kill the children, but he did.  The problem with the 'we've all been there' type of argument is that, like it or not, it marginalises the most important factor in the episode - that two children died - in favour of promoting the point that there was no intention to harm anyone.  To me, this is not as important.

I do agree that convicted criminals deserve a chance to rebuild their lives.  But just as the family of the children have had to accept a huge change in their lives, I don't think that it's at all unreasonable for the perpetrator to accept some changes in his/hers after they have served their time.  In McCormack's case, my own take is that he has probably forfeited the right to work in the entertainment industry, of which football is a branch.  Plenty of other arenas in which he could forge a worthwhile living for himself.  As I said earlier, this doesn't feel right.

Well, you now know at least one more person that has driven while drunk (myself). Along with others on the TEF that have admitted to doing so in this thread.

(Just for the record, I will never get behind the wheel whilst drunk again and do not condone it)

Just want to state for the record, I'd prefer for McCormick not to sign for us. The lad (arguably) deserves a chance somewhere, bit I'd rather it not be on my back yard.

Regardless, we have Super Wes anyway so I don't see the point

I stabbed a man in the heart.

You were drunk, it's fine. We all make mistakes.

With your stare?

I can't rationalise what he did because of the dire consequences.

Yes, he's served the time. He's been punished for the 'crime' in law only.

2 kids died though. The law doesn't cover scenarios like that, never has and never will because it's just words on bits of paper stuffed into in a statute book somewhere.

The parents and family will suffer the lifetime of burden and misery that some pissed-up arsehole inflicted on them when he got behind the wheel of his car.

Thats the human side of what happened and my heart goes out to those poor fuckers who were robbed of watching those kids grow up.

McCormick shouldn't even be thinking of returning to professional football. Just as a mark of fucking respect to the kids who died and those left behind, he should be doing something out of the public eye like charity work and keeping his head down for the rest of his life.

Some 'crimes' are beyond forgiveness (whatever the fuck that jumped up, bible-bashing bollocks word actually means) and the perpetrator in cases like this one should never be heard of again.

With a trident?

This.  

There were photos of him recently in the paper on day release for his son's birthday accompanied by an interview with the parents of the boys that died and how they felt about it.

Not only have they had to face life without their two boys, the father is paralysed and needs round the clock care.  How the fuck do you move on from something like that, especially when the person who caused it can now seemingly pick up where he left off?  Oh and he's got a son to enjoy now, something he took from them twice over.

If he had any remore he'd be keeping a low profile and certainly not trying to find a new club the minute he's released.  If this happens it'll be splashed across the papers and they'll be constant abuse directed at the club.  I can't believe they'd be stupid enough to even consider it.  I'm disgusted tbh.

I can understand these sentiments, but the reality is he can't rot in hell ... yet, if you believe that kind of thing.

Yes, he did act like a cunt and society has punished him through the law of the land. Of course it can't be measured against the death of two children, but the past can't be changed.

It isn't 'namby pamby ... bollocks' - criminals need to be dealt with and he has (the degree of punishment is usually the contentious issue). He fucked-up big time, he knows it, we know it, the club knows it. Society, including all prospective employers, has to deal with ex-cons. The easy option is to try to sweep them under a convenient carpet. The harder option is to face the reality and do something purposeful.

It sure as hell made me feel uncomfortable when I heard the news on TV this evening. I'd rather it not be STFC, but it is, and we have to deal with it this time round, just like others have in the past and will have to in the future. Football is his trade so why try and foist him on someone else's?

This x 2

This too. I saw the same thing in the papers. It would be disappointing if we were to entertain the idea of signing him

My view is he did something beyond stupid which nobody can put right, he was punished for it according to the laws of the land, and he is being released back into society. He has to start rebuilding his life, as anybody else would do, and I don't mind if he does it at Swindon.

Yes, it will attract attention, but we've not suffered from all the negative opinions about Paolo so far. And yes, he's in a public job, but it's not like his face is going to be all over the national news every week - in fact, outside of Swindon you'd be highly unlikely to ever see his picture/name.

I respect people who are much more opposed than me, but personally don't have anything against giving him the chance to start again.

Looking forward to seeing how these opinions will fizzle into acceptance should the mass murderer sign.

Wifey put this a good way:

- If McCormick was your son, would you want him to have a second chance or whould you want him vilified wherever he went for the rest of his life?

- If it were your sons that died, would you want him to have a second chance or whould you want him vilified wherever he went for the rest of his life?

Would you be so compassionate in both answers?  It would take a bigger man than me to do so.

It's such an odd thing for our board to even consider. Seeing as they've got most issues spot on so far it's odd that they'd accept all the negative press that would come with his signing, especially when realistically he's going to be second choice behind Wes. It would be more understandable if he was a world beater, but for a back up keeper it seems strange.

Even more odd is the fact that the board is clearly quite keen to advertise our club as a family club, you'd think that the last thing they'd want to do is sign a player who has destroyed a family.

Your bleeding heart bullshit knows no bounds, R4E;-)

Putting aside the morality arguments, signing this dickhead will be mortifyingly terrible PR for a football club that is now properly run, with credible investors in the boardroom and a legend manager guiding us on the field.

I honestly can not see PDC running with it.

According to reports McCormick has been in training with the club already.

Yeah I read that too, Flash.

I'm not having it though. PDC is a family bloke by his own admission. Can't see him welcoming someone with blood on his hands into the revitalised STFC fold.

Spot on.

i was told by a youth team player he has been training, that was about 2 weeks ago thought nothing of it

But he has invited him training...

I know several people who staunchly vilify people who drink and drive and yet then proceed to smoke pot and drive.

The fact is he made a series of choices, bad choices, that led to him killing two children and badly disabling their father.

I will put my hands up and say that I have driven whilst drunk.  I had no intention of doing so at the beginning of the evening or during the course of the evening but woke up in the morning to go to work and collect my car from where I had parked it and discovered it was missing -  I reported it stolen only to be told 2 hours later it was parked outside my neighbours house blocking their driveway...  I do not remember driving it home and could have easily have wiped out half of Chippenham and neither intended to drive or remember doing so.  To give this more perspective I was a Police officer at the time and had never drunk driven before and have the same views of anti DD myself BUT remember this...

Alcohol effects people in different ways and different types of drink work differently on the same body. From my experience of alcohol (both from personal experience and dealing with it in a professional stance) I have seen perfectly good people do things they would never have dreamed of doing at the start of the evening and make decisions no sober person would have dreamed of as a result of drink and in most cases bad decisions come off the back of drinking something that they don't normally drink.

Two times over the limit isn't normally an amount that would render you paraletic drinking your normal tipple BUT switch to something you are not used to and that same amount of alcohol consumption will have a different effect and, more importantly, may result in you a making decisions that you would not normally make.

I guess the whole debate comes down to a question of who he killed rather than the choices he made... had he killed two dogs and been done for drink driving this debate wouldn't have been so vociferous... Did we debate Michael Pook's DD conviction so deeply?

I think the key issue here is my thinking in this case the law is an ass. It is what it is, but for me its not enough. That's not my call, but I will never support the bloke being at my club.

I don't think society has punished him either. The law has, but I bet a majority of people would say 3 1/2 years behind bars isn't enough.


In the eyes of the law he is free to do what he wants. But not at Swindon thank-you.

So disappointed with Wray and Watkins if this happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIlUUsh0cU

Haha

That video is horrendous, he's obviously gutted. It's worlds apart from what that cunt Hughes did, I actually feel a llittle bit sorry for McCormick.

Funny how we react in different ways.  I watched the clip as well and, if anything, it reinforced my view that I don't want him at the club.  He drank enough to send himself more than twice over the limit, and then knowingly took his Range Rover out for an erratic 97 mph spin on a motorway.  While you wouldn't condone them either, this is in a different league from stories elsewhere on this thread...even before considering the tragic consequence that two children died and the permanent disability inflicted on their father.

For me, the fact that he was 'gutted' is irrelevant.  The damage was already done.  Too late.

@SamMorshead_SA


It's just a trial at this stage, nothing else.

I think he must know what a twat he's been, and it will haunt him forever. He has served his sentence in law, and I am sure he will personally feel punished for the rest of his life. It does seem like his professional life will recommence untarnished (apart from the dogs abuse he's get every game), and I'd have thought coaching and community work might have been a better avenue morally.

I guess he'd be cheap, and if he's still decent would be good value for money in a pure footballing sense. I just don't want my club to have him.

At risk of adding to the 'bleeding hart bullshit' (in itself a bullshit phrase):

The crime is getting behind the wheel of a car when he was unfit to drive.  Anyone and everyone who has done that is potentially as guilty as McCormick, as several people have pointed out.  Add to that anyone who has driven a car which is unfit to drive, anyone who has exceeded the speed limit in a 30mph zone, or anyone else who has driven without due care or consideration.  What happened with McCormick is total tragedy and disaster, firstly for the children who died and their dad who was injured, secondly for their family who will never ever get over it and thirdly for McCormick (and his family) who will also never get over it.

But he did not make that totally wrong decision to drive with the intention of hurting anybody, any more than I did when I drove at 34mph in a 30mph zone.  I could so easily have gone round a corner and hit someone, and I would have been entirely responsible.  There is absolutely no justification in law for the principle 'It doesn't matter so long as I don't get found out'. That is just hypocrisy.

Further to that I - and I suspect everyone else who is writing on here - have absolutely no idea what has happened in McCormick's life since going to prison.  We know nothing about the terms of his release.  We know nothing about whether he has had contact with the family he damaged so appallingly.  We know nothing about the basis on which he is currently with the club.  He is a footballer by profession.  There is nothing so far as i know that prevents a person who has served a prison sentence (for anything) from restarting the career for which they are trained, unless their crime has a direct bearing on the profession - as , for instance, in financial crimes or sex crimes.

It is a reasonable question to ask whether someone who is an 'entertainer', and therefore thrives on public profile, should really come back into the public eye.  That is a very difficult question, and if we start down that road, where do we stop?  I trust the leadership of the club to ask those questions very carefully, and to make the best possible decision for everyone concerned.

There is nothing more detestable in our society generally than the animal instinct to make scapegoats, whether in the out-and-out tabloid rubbish that some have written, or in the patronising 'There but for the grace of God go I' attitude of some others.  We ARE in it, unless there are any saints on here - and I have yet to encounter any.  

If the club decide that Luke McCormick has the right attitude to pick up a career (and where else in the lower leagues would a player find a more disciplined approach), then I would not want to stand in his or their way.

Same as Ardiles, whether he's gutted or not makes no difference. People are saying he was unlucky, he wasn't unlucky, he made a cuntish, selfish and fucking dangerous decision and it bit him, hard. People are saying plenty of others do it. That makes zero difference, he's in a privileged position to earn a very nice living from playing a game, I don't think he deserves another crack at it. After all, he chose to drink and drive, nobody forced him. As a father I could not bring myself to cheer for him as a Swindon player.

Hughes is a different kind of cunt, he fled. The two can't be compared, other than neither should earn a living from playing football.

(I'm talking about his career and little else)

McCormick, long term, will be fine wherever he ends up. He's a 28 year old goalkeeper from the lower leagues. I dare say that people like Paolo Di Canio would consider the redemption of McCormick a challenge.

Wherever McCormick continues his career, the abuse will be really bad for a while and will eventually reduce itself to a few people every game. This is based on what has happened to Lee Hughes, Jordan Robertson and Adam Chapman (they all killed, they all returned).

McCormick's occupation is football, whether he should or shouldn't be allowed to return into the game is up for debate but it makes sense that he personally wants to go back into what was his profession before he went inside.

--------

Also,

http://www.thisisswindontownfc.co.uk/news/9721156.Wray_explains_McCormick_decision/

Just homing in on this paragraph (which, I appreciate, is just part of the point you were making), I find this way of thinking too simplistic.  Life is not black & white; there are many shades of grey inbetween...so to equate driving at 34 mph in a 30 mph limit (which everyone will have done) with McCormick's crime of driving at 97 mph on a motorway with a 70 mph limit, whilst intoxicated (which very few of us, hopefully, will have), makes no sense to me at all.  You would be as well arguing that stepping on an ant and killing it is no different to torturing a kitten to death.  Scale does matter, and it's the scale of McCormick's stupidity, together with the tragic consequences, that sets this apart for me.

Take your point about the tendency to make scapegoats and how unattractive that is...so I hope I am not contributing to that.  Certainly not my intention.  I just feel that McCormick crossed so far over the line that night that I'd rather he was not associated with the club I love.

Please dont tell me what he did was a mistake, he chose to drive, knowing that he was still pissed, he ignored pleas from friends, telling him not to drive. He is a cunt for what he did and i dont want him anywhere near this club. Big deal, he did 5 years, its 5 years that those little boys that he killed will never have the chance to see.    

It's odd that both macphlea and I have admitted to driving while way over the limit, yet there's not a smidgen of moral outrage to be seen.

And that makes it OK to do it?

I may have a simplistic view.

There is a second part of justice called rehabilitation (and integration back into society). If he's done the punishment then he should be able to move on to the rehabilitation. This is a fundamental part of the justice system. Unless the person is still a danger to society, then he/she shouldn't be discriminated against when trying to get a job.

What doesn't sit right with me is that he's only served four years in jail for this crime. This for me is where the real issue lies.

I don't want him here.

There's a point, and you missed it.

Ok, if it makes you feel any better, your a cunt for drink driving

Or when half these cunts sat in the stands for Jimmy Davis memorial game who was lucky to hit a lorry and die rather than hit a car with a family in it...

Or when Michael Pook was convicted of drink driving and continued playing for the club...

For me it isn't just about whether someone seriously fucks up.  It's about how they conduct themselves when they seriously fuck up and how they go about trying to repair the damage they have done... Lee hughes is a spineless cunt who doesn't deserve a second chance.  McCormick is a stupid cunt who needs to prove to everyone he is worthy of a second chance

And there, in this thread, you have it neatly encapsulated: a split fanbase.

Brilliant.

But i was so drunk I can't remember driving...

My point is, anyone and i include myself in this , is a cunt if they drink drive. And i totally agree with what you are saying MacPhlea, its how they conduct themselves afterwards.  

Without wishing to defend the guy, that is exactly what happened in this situation. He went to a wedding, he drank too much, he went to bed, he got up, still over the limit and drove. He hit the family's car in the 90s.

A split fanbase is only an issue to the club if attendances and other selling points start to drop purely because of this.

If he does sign permanently, I don't think they we'll see drops in the mentioned areas.

its now a trending topic on twatter, going to be negative for the club...

How?

Perception from the outside would be that we employ killers or sympathise with them ???

http://www.footballforums.net/forums/showthread.php/286997-The-Fascist-Takes-On-Double-Kid-Killer

I dont want him to play for our club, he wants to 'get his life back on track' do it somewhere else. It's not even like we need a keeper massively so why risk the negative headlines that will head our way?

I'm sure he didn't mean to kill those two young lads but the fact he is that he did and for me that is that, I just think of the family of those lads and what they would feel if they saw him playing for us. Not for me.

Oh and people who drink and drive are cunts.

I skimmed the comments on Twitter and it's mostly questioning the duration of the sentence (and a lot of spam). Not many saying how evil Swindon Town are (apart from one Millwall fan).

Thanks for this, Ardiles.  I don't really dissent from your point; but my point is that we are all making decisions - especially where driving is concerned - that could lead to loss of life or serious injury.  That is the point at issue for me.  the law is quite clear - there are different levels of dangerous driving, and his was definitely the most serious.  I have driven at 97mph on the motorway, but not been drunk.  Had I been stopped I would have automatically have been done for dangerous driving (even if the motorway was empty), but had an accident happened (and it easily could have done for any number of reasons)and life lost it would have been upgraded..  I drive around the country a great deal, and see some absolutely crazy driving by people who are not. presumably, over the limit - they think they are good drivers presumably - but they make conscious decisions to drive in a way which causes danger and fear to other road users.  i wish they got caught more often, because the process might moderate their decision-making - but not destroy their whole lives subsequently.

No it isn't, he was drinking until 2am then got 2 hours sleep and drove. There was no way that he couldn't still be pissed. When he was breathalysed he was still over twice the legal limit.

Very different from stopping at 11pm and getting in the car 12 hours later when it would be reasonable to assume the alcohol had gone.

Christ alive, the very thought of signing him is despicable. And I've got a DD conviction.

Offences aren't the same. Yes, I'm a twat, cunt etc for what I did and I couldn't care less what others think, at the end of the day I'm the one who had to lump the punishment.

My point is, that the offence isn't the same - I drove when I was pissed. So did McCormick. But I didn't kill 2 children and paralyse another. He shouldn't play for Swindon.

And there in lies the magic word 'assumption' - it offers no defence even if you think it is reasonable...  You could still be twice over the limit after 12 hours sleep

If Dave thinks it's wrong, it might just be!

But you could have done... so what you are saying is that we can forgive people for drink driving as long as they don't kill a couple of kids?

Had he killed a couple of kids without drinking or driving then I would agree

This thread gets a mention

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18164015

I find this bizarre. How can drink driving be an excuse to turn him into a victim, but if he was not drink driving be worse?

I might get pissed and go and stab a few people later. Hey its OK because I was pissed, everyone makes mistakes, we've all been pissed.

Hypothetical bollocks.

I didn't so it's irrelevant.

Er, where?

I've always had a lot of respect for Swindon, but for them to come out and chase a child killer as a new signing, it's just not on.  I really hope a campaign is launched to stop this.

Ooh, sensationalism. My favourite.

I don't think anyone is justifying what he did.

To be honest he's done what he's done. There's no turning back the clock. Watching that youtube clip, you could see he was devestated. He has to live with that for the rest of his life. I do feel sorry for the parents, and would hate to be in their position. But what should the bloke do, hide away? If he was to serve you in a restaurant would you refuse? What if he got a job in your favourite restaurant, would you refuse to go?

You should see twitter Barry.

What you did was as bad. You were just lucky nobody was killed.
I too used to drink drive when i was younger and am fortunate I was never caught or hurt anyone.
I sympathise with the player but think he should steer away from football and stfc due to the split it will cause.

Listen to the interview around 3 minutes 45 seconds.

I agree - but my point is, I shouldn't be demonised in the same way LM is, I didn't kill or hurt anyone. Luckily or not, that's the bottom line.

Well, he must have some bollocks to want to return to football where he will be crucified everytime he appears on a pitch.

It will take major league thick skin for all that abuse not to affect him.

Trying to be rational about this without letting emotion get in the way - but on reflection I wouldn't really want him representing my team

You won't catch me on there! Along with my longterm complete and total media blackout I avoid Twitter and steer clear of anything that smells like it might descend into sensationalist mongism. :)

And yes, I'm being sanctimonious. 8)

McCormack is considered scum yet look at the reaction to Jimmy Davis after he passed away.  They both drove over the limit it’s just the consequences were different, Davis could have crashed in a family car, LM could have gone off the road and not hurt anyone, they didn’t but they both took the same risk.

One we generally don’t want near our club and other is thought of in almost “Hero” terms, this makes me a little uncomfortable at the element of a double standard being applied (myself included) 

My point is that he is being demonised because he was unfortunate to hit a car instead of a lorry (and before you say he isn't there are loads of us who admit to drink driving and even players who have been convicted without the reaction) so my point is that if we demonised the drink driving and applied to EVERYONE then fewer people would drink drive and these tragedies wouldn't happen.  

By focusing on the death of the children it's deflecting from the real problem;  drink driving

Simple as that really

Both of these points are extremely well put.

Wray trying to defend it on the radio on the grounds it might spark some debate about drink driving and stop someone else from drink driving is despicable spin.

But I'm astonished people are surprised by this - this ship sailed last summer when the club very clearly decided that they would make decisions purely on the basis of success on the pitch. Which is reasonable for them to do. Wrong in my opinion but once you decide it's easier to make these decisions without letting "outside" considerations such as morality etc cloud your judgement, there's a certain logic to it.

And no, I'm absolutely NOT making any moral equivalence between Di Canio and McCormick, there clearly is none, but the decision makes sense on the same value-free "we'll judge it solely in footballing terms" basis. I'm quite sure no-one will read that last sentence and I'll get slaughtered anyway.

I just find it embarrassing that we'd even consider employing this guy. I detest Lee Hughes for the same reason and can't stand the thought of him playing in our league. My kids are 10 and 8, the same age as the boys McCormick killed. If he did this to my kids I'd seriously murder him if I saw him out in public.

Get a job in a charity shop, join greenpeace, but don't go back into football. The thought of our young fans chanting his name makes me feel sick.

If everyone we signed had to have your seal of approval we'd never sign anyone  :toocool:

There is never going to be a common ground found with things like this.  People views will be judged on things that they have encountered in life and everyone's views will be right depending on their own personal circumstance and view on life and the world we live in really.

Pointless trying to justify it either way really.  What will be, will be, and everyone will just need to get on with it whether you like it or not, much like PDC coming in.

I am sure we meet more people in our lives that have killed somebody than we think, and don't even realise it.  The only reason this is different is because it is a relatively high profile profession and everyone has read it in the news.

Just an excuse for anyone that doesn't like Swindon to say that we have employed a "murderer", lots of clubs have similar situations, although maybe not so high profile.

 Paul D, I dont think that you should get slaughtered for the last sentence, it makes perfect sense to me and i completely see where you are coming from, i think sometimes that we all get clouded by the football reason rather than the moral issue .

Agreed.

I'm pining for the return of lazy pre-season days with no news... and I hate lazy pre-season days with no news.

Chase? Child killer?

Run along.

The justice system sentenced him to what they believe was a fair sentence (whether we agree or not is irrelevant) and he's now done his time.  Why shouldn't he seek to return to his profession? 

Its highly relevant. just because the law says he can work doesn't mean society has to accept it

A lot of sanctimonious bollocks on this thread. For those of you asking how people would feel if it was there kids, spin it and ask what your feelings would be if it was your child who committed the offence?

The only ones who are worse are those saying he deserves a second chance, but not here. What a bunch of fucking NIMBY's.

I have slated other players in the past for the same offence and just because he may wear a Swindon jersey doesn't mean I will change my mind about him.

There are thousands of jobs and hundreds of keepers out there so why he has to come here to do this job lord only knows.

He spent over 3 years in prison, plenty of time to gain a qualification in something else.

I'd kick his arse and dis-own him.

Can I say what I like now without being sanctimonious and a NIMBY?

So people are suggesting the club are sacrificing moral judgement in favour of the club's performance?

That would be assuming that they feel themselves that making such a decision would be wrong. Perhaps they genuinely feel, as do many others, that to give the player a trial would be the morally correct (or at least not morally wrong) thing to do.

He's was a good keeper and will be cheap as chips, bottom line.

So he's not allowed to try and rebuild his own life?  And does that equally apply to all crimes committed or just those that you find hard to stomach?  

I appreciate that the parents of the children can't rebuild and that is heartbreaking but he must be given a chance.

Knock yourself out.

Don't think anyone is saying that.  More questioning whether football which, at this level, entails getting a crowd of thousands to back you, is the best arena in which to get back on your feet.


Again, I don't think anyone thinks that getting a good player on the cheap is the club's motive.  I respect Jeremy Wray more than that.  I honestly believe that he does believe the player deserves another chance.  But that doesn't mean I have to feel comfortable with that.

As an aside, the TEF should be proud of this thread.  Excellent debate.  Demonstrates what a cracking forum this is.  But I'm going to take a break from this (the thread) now.  Think it's pretty much all been said.

I don't give a fuck what he does and what he doesn't do, as long as it isn't here. How the fuck can I stand a clap the cunt if he plays for us when I have the views I do. I can't.

I beginning to see how Paul D felt this time last year.

All so easily avoided by the club.

Oh and Herthab, fuck you ;)

Agree with this. Pretty much sums up my views on it all.

Bloody hell.....surely this could only happen to Swindon !!!

There could be debate after debate here.

As an employer, STFC will get a person who will try so hard to get his life back as a professional football player and into some form of normality. For that reason he would be a fantastic prospect. 

On the other hand he will cause many difficulties for the club and supporters alike over the obvious moral issues...!!!

Taking that aside...how many people on here have driven whilst over the limit ?????  I know I have and yes, I have been lucky..

For that reason I would be in favour of STFC signing this guy and making sure he becomes a pinnacle in society against driving whilst under the influence.   :headhurts:


   

But that's down to him right?  He's going to needs balls the size of the moon to withstand the torrent of abuse he'll face at every game (home and away) and concentrate for 90+ minutes but, if he can prove to the club that he can, then it's a non-issue.

Wes Foderingham got 29 clean sheets this season.

We don't need this guy.

We have P. Smith who I think was a decent reserve keeper but let him go.

I don't understand why the club have decided to take this route.

If we want to talk about ability then Luke McCormick was/is a better goalkeeper than Phil Smith.

I don't like this idea that 'poor Phil Smith has been axed for a convict' when we all know that Smith's days were numbered regardless.

Agreed, good post..

I agree that he should be given a second chance. Absolutely so.
I also agree that it's ridiculous to say "He should be given a second chance, but not here".

But. I think he should be given a second chance, but not here.

Fair enough he was a good goalkeeper, but we already have a good goalkeeper in Wes. Realistically, McCormick is going to be our second 'keeper, and is it really worth the bad publicity in signing him? From what I've heard, or inferred, he could get first team football elsewhere. Enough people hate us as it is, being the 'big spenders' and because of the Paolo factor etc etc. I just don't think this will help at all.

Purely based on footballing matters, we have Mattia Lanzano and Leigh Bedwell as cover for Wes Foderingham. Therefore, giving Luke McCormick or any senior goalkeeper a trial at this moment is excessive.

That said, it's obvious that we are trying to get rid of Lanzano so Town will be in the market for a new goalkeeper later in the Summer.

surely fascism killed more than 2 kids and you were alright with that?










sits back with some popcorn..............

....at least use the icon.

 :popcorn:

oooh thanks didnt see that :popcorn:

That doesn't make sense. The law is set by society. If society doesn't like (or accept) the law it can change it.

So is McCormick a fascist as well then? That explains a few things..

I know 99% of footballers are thick as pig spit, but there is no excuse in law for getting into your car pissed up and driving wherever.

He got pissed - his choice. He got into a car - his choice. He killed kids. He should have done LIFE, with a minimum of say 15 years - meaning his career is totally over.

He gets to start again, like that cretin Lee Hughes, yet the kids he killed can't, and neither can their family.

Jeremy Wray, you should be ashamed of yourself.

It's not sensationalism.  That's what he did.  I suppose having a Fascist in charge of your football club might mean that your outlook is a little different, but a child killer is a child killer.

What next for Jeremy Wray?  Gary Glitter to entertain the kids at Christmas?

And what about the away fans next season?  How will it look for a great club like Swindon (I have family in the area, don't live there, but have a lot of time for the club and the area) to have to put up with chants like child murderer, scum etc every fortnight?

Fucking hell.

Agreed.  If Football had any morals whatsoever the FA should tear up his registration and the PFA simply say to it's members do not play in the same team as him.  People like McCormick make football look even sicker than it is.  Don't forget even Graham Rix after his child sex revelations came back into football.  The whole industry has no shame.

Whilst Jonathan King spins some discs.  How about it Mr Wray?

Where's that popcorn gone?

This thread is hysterical.

Who do you support Timelord?

The only difference between football and any other job is that there are spectators who are effectively stakeholders. Other than that, football is subject to the same legislation and employment laws as any other profession.

You can't pick and choose which jobs convicted criminals are allowed to do simply because they are deemed to be more fun than others. That would be illegal.

McCormick was utterly wrong. We all know that. But he can only serve the sentence given to him, whether that is appropriate or not in your eyes. Beyond that, his life is his to do as he wishes. I doubt very much he'll ever forget - or be allowed to forget- what happened. But equally, I bet that amongst the people shouting "murderer" at the next game he plays, will be the odd convicted drink driver, who thinks he has the right to judge when in fact it was only by the grace of God that he wasn't in the same position.

Actively?  Gainsborough Trinity in the BSNorth.

I fucking love pre-season

You can - it's called being CRB checked.  Footballers in their contracts are usually expected to get out into the community - schools, businesses, youth groups.  How wrong would it be for McCormick to go into a Primary School to give the kids a football lesson?  Wrong on so many levels.

Didactic FC

yes but he didnt put a finger up their bum, it was a range rover.

Agreed, but those people in the crowd who are drunk drivers etc aren't necessarily representing your club, your community, your town,  to the rest of the country, are they?

If McCormick signs a deal and is your 'no 1' next year, thats the point.  A convicted child killer, and stress I do not use the word murderer, representing your town and your club?  Not on, is it?

And that makes it OK how?

He would proably be cleared in a crb check - not a danger to kids or vunerable people...

Sounds a good idea to me, he could go into secondary schools and warn them of the effects of alcohol too.

The bloke was stupid, reckless and and got punished, but demonizing? 

Sensationalism is what your post was. Nowhere does it say we're chasing him, which is a word you chose to use. Now please be a good troll.

Oh, do you know Dorset Red?

No it's probably not chasing now that you have got him.  Sad that a great club like Swindon has to have people like that on it's books.

Right.  :yeahright:

Fair play.

You should have seen his/her reaction when GT signed Craig 'convicted for assault' Nelthorpe last summer. Yikes.

 :popcorn:

First thing to say is that he hasn't actually signed. But it is difficult to know what to think about Luke McCormick. He made some terrible decisions that night back in 2008 that cost two young children their lives. What he did that night can at best be described as incredibly reckless and that will live with him forever. I can't begin to imagine what the victim's family have gone through. They have lost 2 children and their father is now disabled. McCormick is free to earn a living and can now look forward to being a father himself. You can understand why people feel immense anger about the situation.


But rightly or wrongly he has been handed his punishment and has served it. It is now the job of society to rehabilitate him as long as he shows genuine remorse for what he has done and is receptive to that opportunity. Whilst there is nothing he can do to "fix" what has happened I still believe it would be better if now goes out and tries to give something back to society through what he does best which is football. If he plays professionally and works hard in the community through coaching, promoting alcohol awareness and road safety then maybe, just maybe he can help prevent further tragedies like this occuring. And then at least something good will be able to come out of this whole absolutely terrible and heartbreaking episode.

Or Levi Reid, who in 2005 was found guilty of affray. (whatever that is)

It is never dull at Swindon Town, is it?

I just don't think I could bring myself to clap and cheer him if he was playing for us, surely there are other options out there.

What a club.

Well he ain't here anymore...

Still at least we don't have a Fascist in charge.

Timelord rocks, can we keep him?

Wahay!

 :fishing:

 :clap:

I almost wrote a serious response to this. I think I'll just leave it at 'Don't be so childish'.

True though.  At at time when Swindon should be celebrating, the club has been put into very negative press, for reasons that are above me to be honest.

Why are you so concerned timelord?

Dont want him at the club.

Regardless of the time he's done, the remorse he's shown, the fact he deserved a second chance or his goal keeping ability. I dont want him at the club.

Its bad publicity for the Football Club and its publicity we dont need and shouldnt really want.

In the eyes of other fans and the nationals - both of whom like to exaggerate a story and what not - we've gone from family club of the year to a club that employees murderers.

Oh and just because plenty of you (and other people) were also stupid enough to drink drive without killing anyone - that in no way makes it right! and its certainly not something everyone does.

I'm still celebrating

Blame Jonathan Tehoue for that. French Cart horse.

 I know this isn't a done deal, but could someone do a poll, to gauge strength of feeling. In other words how many would do a PaulD Mex etc and knock it on the head.

Personally I like Langers point, how could you cheer this fella...if it was Lee Hughes that would do for me, so I guess thois would be the same  :(

I'd like to think people could/would still attend matches. I've been going for over 20 years and have actively disliked various members of our squad in that time. No one has to buy a McCormick jersey, or sing his name... this sort of thing wouldn't force people to cease attending games I wouldn't have thought.

Then again, I did think the same about the Di Canio/fascism thing, and was wrong.

I thought the same, only to find out there are many delicate sould who follow Town.  Bless 'em.

I am 100% against even giving this guy a trail, but it wouldn't stop me going to a game.

Not sure how I'd react to him playing though, hopefully just sit in silence and seethe on the inside.

Sensitive subject and all that, but this cracked me up!  First time I have laughed out loud reading the TEF for a while, well done Mex!

For all of that can't see that Timelord is a pox fisherman, shame on you.

Oh, and murderer?  Behave!  Fuck me we are not talking about OJ!

I think Mex and herthab have summed up my feelings on this one pretty well.

A genuine question to those who think he should be sent packing... What job is it acceptable for him to do? Does every single employer in the country have the right to say he shouldn't work for them? Is it right that a person be denied a living once their prison sentence is over?

I sort of understand the argument about not wanting to chant his name etc, but I'd argue that Eric Sabin was much more detrimental to the STFC cause than McCormick ever would be. Negative press? So what. People said that this time last year, and it doesn't seem to have done any harm.

One that doesn't involve me feeling conflicted (or dirty) when I cheer a decent save by our keeper.

Denied a living? Not at all.
Denised resuming a career where he is idolised, predominantly by lads like the ones he took the lives of, yes, it's wholly inappropriate.

Next question...

What about if he makes you a decent coffee? Or builds you a beautiful conservatory?

Because I've got a hell of a lot of time for the Robins mate.  Saw them in the Premier 93/94 at home to Villa and when they played at Macclesfield last season. 

A thought for discussion: Lee Hughes' crime was far worse (leaving the scene etc) and he has been vilified... how many people who detest him and think he should never play, conversely think that McCormick should be allowed to return to the game? Or is it simply a case of forgiving and rehabilitating everyone regardless?

What would happen if (and I say IF) he signs, we draw the Y*llow cunts in the FA Cup (lets face it he'll only be no.2 IF he does sign and would only probably play cups) and he say I don't know saves a penaltyin the 93rd minute from Cuntstable to send us through...what would the reaction be?  :hmmm: cheer or boo the guy?

I don't tend to identify with baristas or conservatory builders as strongly as I do with those who wear the shirt.  You're a Town fan as well.  Surely you should understand that?

There is football in the community....also there are safety groups, who talk to teenagers about the perils of drink driving, by involving the victims.

This is honourable work fit for a genuinely reforming offender....it is naive in the extreme to think after a prison sentence, you'll walk back into a privileged position....think about the fella banged up for racist abuse of Muamba, fired straight out of his uni. Would you expect to walk straight back into your career? 

Surely the question is not what I would expect but what I would support? I know very little of the case, but I'd have him back as an employer if it was a genuine moment of idiocy and there was no likelihood of it happening again. Unless it was going to jeopardise my business (and I don't think signing McCormick would).

As for calling it a privileged position, yes it's a job that lots of people want and that pays well, but there are plenty of other jobs like that out there that take only half the amount of work and commitment many footballers put in.


I do understand that. Completely. But should my feelings, rather than the law (which I, as a member of a democratic country have a voice in) have an influence on somebody else's rights regarding where they can find employment?

I agree 100%. One of those rare occasions where a more dramatic member might have actually spat coffee over one of those seemingly water resistant laptop's that constantly get a soaking. :D

I absolutely slashed myself and it went all over my Sony Walkman Sport.


What if it's Adam Chapman who takes it?

To be fair it has bored me.None of you have the right or wrong answer you just think by writing a longer reply than the person you disagree with that you are right.

True that, this argument is just going to go round & round in circles.

Undecided really. Should he or shouldn't he, both arguments have their merit. Although I'm probably erring on the side of "He shouldn't"

He shouldn't, or we shouldn't? If he were to sign, who'd be in the wrong - player or club?

You're coming at it from the 'rights of the player'/employment law standpoint, where as I (and a number of others) are looking at this more selfishly from the standpoint of our own feelings, attempting - and failing - to get comfortable with having someone who has committed a terrible act associated with the club that we love.

You're never going to reconcile those two standpoints.  I don't doubt the rights of Luke McCormick, in law, to become an employee of STFC - and, frankly, I don't care about that.  I'm simply expressing a personal preference.

We shouldn't be signing him and he shouldn't be expecting to start over where he left off so easily. So bit of both really.
In hindsight I wish I'd just kept my trap shut

I'm not comfortable with the notion that you pay for the rest of your life because of one catastrophic decision but this is clearly a hugely divisive issue which I don't think we need right now. Will be interesting to see how the "In PDC we trust" brigade react when he gives us his views. :hmmm:

Pluses: Good, quality keeper proven in the championship/wouldn't cost a thing/would be a good back up and push Wes for the starting slot.

Negatives: Convicted of manslaughter, bad publicity, divided fans, (would it) affect his game if he played...along with the rest.

Whoever made the call for inviting him for a trial sure has 1 big set of balls!

He was never convicted of manslaughter.

What's his favourite cheese?

This one is starting to replay now, time to knock it on the head.

What will be will be..  nobody is right or wrong in this case, every opinion is right for that person.

We should just leave it at that me thinks.

Can't say I'm happy about this one bit as I'm a father and just to think what he has done to that poor family is unbearable plus if he does get a contract with us next season we will have to listen to the opposition fans throw all kinds of abuse at him and our club for signing him. I take my boy to the game with me and i dont want him to have to listen to it. The whole thing is just bad publicity and will draw a dark cloud over our club which is a shame when we have just had a fantastic season.

Death by dangerous driving*

He was jailed for 7 years and 4 months so for me his conviction is NOT spent yet. He is still on payback.
So he should not be even considered for a career with us before Summer 2016.

This is the first negative story we have been involved in for a while now and I would rather he didn't come to our club at all to be honest but he is a human being and he should be offered the chance to be a community servant until his conviction is fully spent. Perhaps he can help in the local community, then get a contract once 7 and a half years after conviction and he has , in the eyes of the law anyway, fully repaid his dues to society.

This horse has already bolted the stable. He has trained with the club and been given a trial so there is a willingness to take him on. Regardless of wherther he signs or not the club have decided it is OK to do so.
From his point of view ( whilst he may like to stay out of the limelight ( its what he does and its what he can get paid well for. He's a decent keeper and he needs someone to take him on to rehabilitate him until he moves on.
I'd like to hear from McCormick. If he's going to hand over x% of his wages to charity and work tirelessly giving anti DD messages then maybe it might work. I'd also like to hear from the familty affected - if they gave it the green light then maybe people who are anti should stand down.
I'm against this at the moment but I want to hear from the people directly involved.

Anyone hear JW's TEF drop in the BBC interview that on the website? Apparently there is a 'mature debate on thetownend.com' (or words to that effect).

If your reading JW, I love you.

I posted the link on a previous page

Smashing!!

Not comfortable with this at all.

I can't say much else.

Just to throw this out there again, but would there be such outrage if he was just under the legal limit? Just because that's what people are focusing on most so it would interest me.

And what I'm about to say will not make this right but this could have happened to any of you. I'd be highly surprised if any more than a handful of people could hand on heart said they had never done the following:

*Driven or attempted to drive under excess alcohol
*Driven at dangerous speeds
*Driven having had minimal sleep or driven whilst tired

How would you feel about never being able to work again? What if you were able to get the same type of work but at a much lesser level and with a lot less pay than what you had before?

 if they go through with signing him, get a shit load of backlash and bad publicity - for what? a back up keeper  ??? doesn't seem worth it

what happened to that david james rumour?

I've been unsure about this being a parent, but also understand the rehablilitory(sp) side, this post probably sums up best how i feel, and would ease worries for me if the things suggested here came to pass.

If anyone is interested, there is a good debate about this on the Plymouth forum.

http://www.pasoti.co.uk/talk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=66821

When it  was revealed  last year that McCormick had been granted a day release from prison,
Mr and Mrs Peak were very upset to hear this news.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1422783_parents-anger-as-drink-drive-footballer-who-killed-their-sons-gets-day-release-from-prison

I'd suggest that Mr Wray on behalf of the club, writes to them to explain the proposal of the
offer of a trial to McCormick.

Thisis is going into meltdown

"Ill cancel my season ticket if he signs"

Jesus christ.

Dont torture yourself

People in feeling strongly about something shocker.

Its an entertaining read, especially when half of them demonstrate they don't know what murder is

I don't read that shit site but the comments on here aint much better i'm sure. So many fucking saints,or hypocrites.

Half of the thick cunts cant even spell his name right, getting mixed up with mccormack which is naughty

@Batch, im guessing these are the same people who said they wouldnt go if paolo was the manager, yet now they would be first in the queue to perform fellatio on him

It's quite strange how nobody has contended with my post on the previous page.

The mum of the two boys has commented on fb's unofficial 'Swindon Town FC's' clip of McCormick in the station when he was nicked.

The fact people are saying he was totally shitfaced as well...
You don't need to be shitfaced to be twice over the limit.

they can't, or those that can are few and far between. You could have added phoning and texting too as that has caused deaths and jail sentences also.
Nobody has mentioned that he's in an open prison. The reason will be that he's done his time with no issue. Think it says alot about him personally

What was said?

I don't know who has said it. I agree I doubt many would go through with the threat.

Its a shame we have 19 pages on this topic. A shame the club even considered it.

Even of you take it down to purely football reasons we just need a #2 to cover Wes, which he isn't. Shit decision by the club all round. The end.

Like I was getting what I deserved.

Now cousins and grandparents are posting on that page

Presumably it's not positive?

Any chance of a link to the group, or even the name of the group?

Swindon Town FC Fans i think

Swindon Town FC is the name of the page.

It says swindon town fans on the avatar pic.

There are comments on the custody video

Understandably no. Swindon are just as bad as him according to the grandfather

https://www.facebook.com/theswindontown?ref=ts

I bet they regret naming their group 'Swindon Town FC'.

Their reaction is to be expected.

Wray was spot on when he said the sentence length could have been 20 years and it wouldn't be enough for the family.

And there we have what is wrong with that group,Why have they shown that video? Constantly dividing the fan base then justifying it by saying they are only doing what the club should be doing

The family members are posting on the official page as well.

A couple here :

https://www.facebook.com/SwindonTownFootballClub

We haven't taken him on, i don't think we will eaither now.....

Agreed DRS. Their attempt to sit on the fence (it's clear they're anti) has turned in to shit stirring.

That same group is also partly responsible for the Connell bubbake party IMO

All this bullshit makes me want to give him a chance more.

Agreed.

I was undecided to start with, but the more I read of some of the awful comments made by some the more I think he deserves a chance. We all do make mistakes, some we get away with, and some lead to the worst outcomes imaginable.

That's an extremely good suggestion. However, I suspect the answer as to how the parents would feel is in some of the quotes in that article you quote and the cousins' and grandparents' anger on the Facebook page. And I think Wray knows that, despite his sanctimonious lipservice to the family in the media today. Which is why he won't write to the family, because if he genuinely were to ask the family he won't get the answer the club wants. I'd love the club to prove me wrong, prove it's not just lipservice and take the family's views into account as alanmayes, chalkies and sutton have suggested. I think we'll all be disappointed.

I'm sorry to say this but I don't think the views of the family should be taken into consideration here. As they, quite obviously, are 100% completely overwhelmed by emotion. I don't mean it in a nasty way, but just as a family member of a victim can't get involved in deciding a jail term for a rapist/murdered/drink driver. Emotion has to be taken out of the equation entirely.

If a sportsman were to kill a member of my family I'd never want to see that individual succeed in anything they do ever again, but that's not to say I wouldn't expect them to live their life when they had served the time the law of the land decide is a suitable punishment.

That's a fair point janaage but it's not true to say
their views are now often taken into consideration in deciding jail terms via Victim Impact Statements.

I want to say something along the lines of what jaanage is saying, just not quite sure how to word it.

Okay I may have not fully explained myself, what I meant, in a round about kind of way is, there's a reason why judges decide on court cases, and people emotionally tied to the case don't. Emotions a bloody hard thing to control and decisions, actions and words are sometimes hugely effected by emotion.

My post isn't meant to be anything but a rough statement of my take on things, it's not meant as a technically accurate post, as Flashheart says it's tough to get your words right in such a sensitive situation.

So?....his actions resulted in deaths and you cannot compare with yours.....if you swish a knife at someone and nick his arm you will get a prison sentence....if you swish a knife and it cuts there throat and they bleed to death you will get a much longer prison sentence....that is law and fact not luck.

We all deserve a second chance in life i have been given a few....not sure i would have got them for drink driving and killing people though.

That's not the point

The point is that we all do stupid things, even good/caring/intelligent people do stupid things.

It was fortunate that I didn't kill somebody. Does that make me a better person? Or does McCormicks lack of good fortune make him a worse person than I?

In the eyes of the law...and most definatly in the eyes of the family of the deceased.....and in the eyes of most footy fans(if he plays for us) it makes him a worse person than you Flashheart.....since time has begun peoples actions have been judged by what actually happened......not like in your case what actually DIDNT happen.

So a lack of good fortune makes somebody a worse person?

Ain't having it

And ' in the eyes of the deceased' is a moot point. If there was good fortune, there would be no deceased. How many people walk about thinking 'He's better than him because he nearly killed my kids but luckily he didn't'?

Fair enough :D

Like I said earlier, there is no right answer here, it depends on what a person has encountered in the course of their life.  Every opinion is right to a certain extent.

Sooner or later we are going to have to get on with it.  What will be will be.

...and I still agree. Have you made this shorter for DRS' pleasure?

Berniman's Point: Redux

:)

Yeah, couldn't be bothered to find it and cut and paste!  :D

1st time on here I have been agreed with twice by the same person, about the same thing on the same thread. 

I am breaking all sorts of records today!  ;D

I'm off, and hoping that this thread doesn't go on too much longer for the next couple of days having the same conversation, I want to be talking about stuff like Steve Lomas, Cheese and Manatees.

I disagree with you, about something

I can't be arsed to look through all the previous posts, but here is a question and reaction I overheard earlier...

If he had spent years training and practicing to be an accountant before the accident, would it be right to expect him not to be an accountant again upon his release?  In this particular case the culprit is a footballer by profession, and upon his release he is understandably looking for a job that he knows and is trained in.

Sorry if it has been posted but some balanced argument on here.Suprised me actually.

http://www.footballforums.net/forums/showthread.php/286997-The-Fascist-Takes-On-Double-Kid-Killer/page2

Very much how I see it also

You disagree with everyone about something!

Come back to me when you have thought of something!  ;D

I am still undecided on this one.  If McCormick wants to join the club so that he can earn a good salary and just play his football then I don't want the club to touch him with a barge pole.  If he's coming out and plans on working his arse off in his free time giving talks to various groups about the dangers of drink driving and then saves some lives (although we'd never know) then he should be given a chance.

I want a statement from the player.

1)  he's served his time and can get on with his life as he chooses (if anyone thinks the sentence is too short, then don't whinge but campaign to change the law)
2)  I don't know if he is a decent bloke or not.  LM has committed a crime with tragic, fatal consequences and I would think prison followed by terrace taunts and throughout a guilty conscience will be quite sufficient without his having to become a full time anti drink driving campaigner
3)  Other clubs and businesses employ ex-cons, notably the Pox, who have employed the lag-midfielder, Adam Baldwin, who drove dangerously and killed a pensioner.  If McCormick manages a degree of dignity as an STFC player (unlike twat Hughes) then it is not STFCs job to impose extra punishment on a pro footballer
4)  I was happy with Smith as a no.2 but let's wait and see on quality. Happy to back PDC and Wray on their squad building and Smith was never key

Correction:  I referred to Adam Baldwin of the Pox - it should be Adam Chapman.

Have to say I feel a bit uneasy about this; is it a wise move for a family orientated club; it's dividing opinions abd will have an impact on the clubs name.

Whilst I would concede that he will need to rebuild his life after his release; should it be in such a high profile sport, where if he is sucessful (and he was highly rated previously) his name will appear in papers etc.

One interesting comment I noticed from the Sun report was this

Amanda, 34, whose husband Phil suffered a broken back and neck in the crash, said: “It never seems to stop. The minute we think we are getting back on track, we are told something like this. It’s like being hit in the stomach.

“One of McCormick’s main points in his plea was that he will never play football again — that was obviously completely wrong.

(Link Below)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4335182/Mum-of-2-boys-killed-by-disgraced-goalie-Luke-McCormick-hits-out-after-learning-he-is-poised-to-join-League-One-Swindon-Town.html

If this is correct (and I say IF) why has he accepted a trial and why have we offered him one.

One thing is it's only a trial, the club may decide not to offer him a contact

You should give it a go, that shit wins you leagues.

Is this a statement that he will never play football again or an assumption based on his conviction?

Don't know

According to the report it says it was "one of the main points in his plea"

This was from the mother of the victims

You can only make up your own mind

The moral issues of what he actually did have been done to death and are not the kind of issues which people are liklely to change their views on.

Moving on from that, I would like to know what the Club actually stand to gain by signing him?

The down sides are obvious: Massive negative reaction from Town fans in particular and the public in general. If/when he signs, the media will be over it like flies around shit thanks to the 'PDC factor'...and so on.

The up side is...errrr....we get a back up goal keeper. If it was a potential 40 goal a season striker you could understand it more (whether or not you actually agreed with it)

I have been accused of hypocracy by saying that he should be given a chance to play again but not at Swindon. This is bollocks. Just because I think he should get a chance to play again, it does not automatically follow that Swindon should sign him.

If, for argument's sake, a Conference team did not have a keeper signed up for next season, in McCormick they would be getting a player in a position of need who they would not have been able to get under normal circumstances. So you would have a much more pronounced up side with nowhere near as much negative publicity as Swindon would get. This type of move would make much more sense for player and club.

The Club is in danger of getting itself into a really messy situation over a player they have no connection with or obligation to and who isn't going to make any noticeable difference to the squad.

I don't get it.

If i was advising the lad, i'd tell him to make a low key return in the bluesquare/north/south - in a kind of creeping back into football way, and work his way up within a few years. Less stick from fans to begin with and by within a few years  he's with a high profile club, the dust would have settled a bit (regarding his return to football).

But what is wrong with having strength in depth? He may push Wes that little bit more, and keep him on his toes. That can't be a bad thing surely?

Because there are a hundred other keepers they could sign who do not have McCormick's baggage.

Personally, if I was in McCormick's position I would be after my agent to get me a move to Thailand or some other obscure place and get the hell away from the UK altogether.

Best suggestion I've seen/heard so far was a mate of mine who said well, OK, if he wants to resume his career, he's done his time and all that and that's how he earns his living, but it's too high-profile, too soon to go straight back into the pro game in the UK because it's right in the family's face. So why doesn't he go abroad, decent second-tier side in Spain maybe or in the US? He could still play a decent standard, rebuild his career plus do something outside the game to demonstrate some commitment to rehabilitation/payback. Then come back over here if he still wants to in 3-4 years, demonstrably a changed person. That would also allow something much closer to the 7 years of the sentence to have passed, would perhaps have given the family some extra space. Out of sight, out of mind and all that

That struck me as a very sensible and sensitive solution to what's clearly a difficult conundrum FWIW.

Fuck me sideways I agree with Leefer

I don't buy this - the guy has been banged up for ages, you'd have to assume with no training or match practice for that length of time, you will never be as good as you once were. Especially with the physical and mental stress he must be under 24/7.

I agree with this. We've now heard from the family and they're not happy. Please don't rub it in their face and sign this guy JW. It's a fact he's due for early release, so let him go somewhere as far away from the family as possible (Tazmanian league perhaps?!).  Enough damage has been caused already.

Good to see our colonial blood is going strong.

Off to Norfolk Island he goes.

Have a look on yellows forum, apparently PDC is looking for the limeliht

In contrast with most lower league managers, surely he already has it?

I had a look on there yesterday, out of curiosity.  The reaction, to be fair, is very muted.  Perhaps understandably, given that they have a very similar situation with Adam Chapman.  Glass houses, stones etc.

Some people have been saying he should be doing charity work rather than playing football, except they weren't happy with him working in a charity shop either. No matter what he does I doubt they will ever be happy about it.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3651087/Shamed-soccer-star-Luke-McCormick-who-killed-2-boys-in-drink-drive-smash-in-charity-shop-on-day-release.html


I believe he is being released on license which has conditions attached to it, including having to get permission to travel outside the UK and to maintain contact with their probation officer. So working abroad is unlikely to be an option.

I still don't understand why we need another goalkeeper. Regardless of everything else, I'd rather we strengthened other positions.

I dunno, I still think we need a keeper, perhaps not this fella though.

The trial works both ways, you never know he might decide against a return to professional football.

It's not fucking rocket science is it, we have just let our no.2 leave as well as Mark Scott leaving us with a kid in the first year of a pro deal and a mad, useless Italian who will be gone by the end of the summer as he is clearly not part of Di Canios plans.

Good lord.

Your argument that "it doesn't automatically follow that Swindon should sign him" is MASSIVELY flawed because no one is saying Swindon should sign every ex-convict, are they? 

You great big hypocrite, you.

The more i read the comments on the facebook page the more empathy I have with LM.

I just dont understand why it has to be Swindon that wants to open the particualar can of worms, much rather some other club

Crikey.

How many games did Foderingham miss last year? How many times did we have a goalkeeper on the bench? In my opinion Foderingham is good enough, reliable enough and fit enough that we can risk having a young pro on the bench or bring someone in on loan in an emergency.

I'd rather see the wages for a number 2 goalkeeper (who won't even get on the bench) spent elsewhere.

And if needed we can loan a goalkeeper at short notice

Next season we are back to 7 subs, so a Sub GK would be on the bench most games next year I would imagine.

Oh, are we? Good news, i didn't see any sense in the drop down to 5.

Didn't realise that. In that case, I retract my point about wasting wages on a keeper who won't even get on the bench!

I still maintain that McCormick (or James or anyone else for that matter) isn't as important as strengthening up front and left-back.

The aim for next season seems to be a top 6 finish and a top 6 squad has good, reliable back up in every area. A dependable goalkeeper for back up and to push Foderingham is needed.

Other areas should take priority, a left back, central midfielder and forward should be first on the list but we would be stupid to go into the season with a kid as back up. Luckily it seems that the club think so too.

Wray has said he won't be offered a contract, seems a bit pointless to take so much stick in the media if we aren't even going to consider signing the bloke.


Skynews reporter on twitter.

He's done his time as prescribed by the legal justice system.  Rightly or wrongly, he's been freed at a relatively young age and is able to go back to football.  If he doesn't return to football, he'll struggle finding employment with a prison sentence on his record and presumably few other skills.  I don't have a problem with him returning to football.  It was a tragic accident, and something which will burden his conscience for the rest of his life, but it was just that, an accident. 

Lots of people have gotten into a car when they shouldn't have and have gotten away with it.  McCormick was unlucky, but did play a huge part in his own downfall.

I, like others, would query the necessity of this signing given he's unlikely to make a major impact on the First Team.  I sincerely doubt he'll sign after the furore caused.

This debate has been done before, and Lee Hughes is back playing football.  So should McCormick.

In fairness, regardless as to whether the club were thinking about it. They never, ever stated (to my knowledge) that this was in view of a permanent deal.

Of course, that was the assumption though and Wray could have stated this yesterday.

Surely a trial is always in view to a permanent deal?

I don't believe they would've released the statements they have if this were true.  Unless of course the backlash has scared them off.

@ Walrus, so was it an accident that he got behind the wheel of his car knowing that he was pissed? Was it an accident that he ignored his friends who begged him not to drive? No is the answer, so it wasnt an accident, it was a major fucking wrong choice by him and him alone, and how was he unlucky? he was pissed!

I for one am delighted that he hasn't signed as I think we just don't need the hassle.

This thread has been interesting reading though, really shocked how many people on here have never broken the law and led entirely blameless lives... there is hope for the world yet.

Probably.

Either way, NIMBY's can relax, Batch can breath once more and we can all go back to the way it was with our beloved 'bad boy' manager.

:)

I did wonder to begin with why we'd need to trial a player that's been training with us already.

Foggy, you're talking shit! It was an accident. He didn't purposely go out to try and kill them did he?

See, we are a nice family club after all (Re The Sun), especially when we realised the outrage/backlash it caused

No, but he purposely drove that car

I skulled some pillock on the golf course last week, I purposely propelled the ball forward with my 3 wood, does that mean it wasn't an accident?

A decision he took when his decision making skills were seriously impaired.

Thank you for your input, nicely debated. Probaby not but i wish that people would stop trying to make out that he didnt know what he was doing or the consequences of his actions.

Knowing you dave probably not :-)

It's a tough subject and everyone will have different opinions. He knew what he was doing, granted! But, he also didn't go out to kill anyone!

I've read through the topic and a few people have driven whilst under the influence - me included! It doesn't make it right but we're all lucky to get away with it. Sadly, McCormick, wasn't and he's paid the ultimate price for it.

The condequences for his actions will live with him forever.

This is very true, and i hope that he is genuinely remorseful for what he did. I guess it is easy to pass judgement on him in the heat of the moment but i would like to hear his side of the story

Nope, just means you hit a shit shot :) !!

Unless of course he was stood in front of the pin.........

Depends - were you aiming for him ?

More of a fluke, perhaps?

Of course it was an accident, unless you intended to hit him

Well this puts a bit of a different complexion on it for me (in terms of what the club are doing). But the fact we aren't going to sign him was clear as mud yesterday.

However I don't and will never think he should be out so soon. My opinion of the man is unchanged.

In this instance no but I must stress I have the ability to do so if I desire.

So the victims family are angry about it,well there's a surprise. I don't blame them for hating the bloke and all the rest that goes with it, but you are hardly going to get a balanced view from them.

He has been punished as the law and justice system sees fit in this country. I would steer him away from the public eye to be honest but that is his choice. Hypocritical fans screaming abuse at him wont be anything like the hell he will be living through every day.

Think the club rate him and see him as a good enough keeper to push Fods for the no1 jersey.

FFS McCormick destroyed that family because he was a selfish footballer who thought he walked on water and would get away with anything.

McCormick is SCUM, end of.

Just think what Swindon is turning into - a Fascist manager and a child killing goalkeeper.

you know him then and all the details about him and the incident?
Talking utter shit fella.
Di canio has been here a year too. Get used to it or do one

Fuck off back to your Tardis

You're changing your tune.

We were a 'great club' 24 hours ago.

Just because you say 'end of' it does not make it fact.  It means you reached the 'end of' your argument and you are not going to change your opinion.  If that's the case there is no point in you making further comment.

Yesterday you were entertaining.  Today, you're becoming an irritant.

You've said your piece now...so please, run along.  Plenty of other sets of fans out there who, doubtless, will be desperate for one of your lectures.

Have a word. Debate this admittedly contentious issue based on your personal feelings and morals, fine - like 99% of posters have done over the last 26 pages - but why extrapolate it based on baseless speculation for the sake of making the same sensationalist point yet again.

Yeay!  He's back again today.

It's as though the news he won't be signed has put an abrupt end to some peoples' (or at least one person's) opportunity to express moral outrage, that's just not on.

If we take this bloke on I'll not spend a single penny or go to a single game until the person responsible for signing him leaves the club. Absolutely disgusting to be linked with this guy. Lets see if Lee Hughes fancy a transfer while were at it. I wonder what position Anders Breivik plays?

Who does this guy support?

He's a right winger.

He

Is

Not

Going

To

Sign

Permanently

For

Swindon

Town.


RE: Anders Breivik: Di Canio wants to focus on UK based footballers.

Is that some kind of constipation strike?

On the subject of drink driving, some interesting comments in here about people having done it...

I am a little older now and am a lot more responsible, however, did it a couple of times when a little younger, and certainly not proud...I think my worse was 3 pints, not a lot, but bad enough....or it may be the case that my worst offence was driving in the morning after a heavy night, but that's harder to quanitfy...

Two questions...
1) anyone worse than 3 pints?
2) What was Mrcorminck on, anyone know, in pints please, not units or mg/m3 or whatever the fook...

He does have a good strike rate, however.

McCormick was twice the drink drive limit the next morning so I'm guessing the night before he was shit faced.

Considerably more... suprisingly only blew 70 but alot of what I had drank I had lost over the day,

Reports on the trial said he was seen drinking until 2am, the crash happened at 05:45am. So yes I imagine he was shit faced.

McCormick would've blown that as well. How did you feel, in terms of cuntedness? (I'm just curious, I'm not trying to rationalise what McCormick's done.)

Pretty boozy frankly

Wray coming up on Talksport soon.

Legal limit is thought to be 4 units = just under 2 pints of piss weak lager. So therefore McCormick had about 4 pints of Fosters in his system when he blew. However, you process about a unit per hour, so therefore he would have lost a bit before he got taken to the station and gave a reading. Also some people can drink more and be under the limit and others less, you can’t really quantify it in pints or glasses of wine.

If you’ve driven the morning after a heavy session, say at 9am when you stopped drinking at 2am, you’re going to be miles over the limit.

This Adrian Durham fellow is 'interesting'.

Good luck Mr. Wray...

Whats being said?

He's not on yet. Could be a while by the sound of it.

I've never listened to talk sport before, thought i'd switch on to listen to what JW has to say. These two talking now are idiots, did they just suggest joey barton get a job in a bank ???

I'm new to this TalkSport malarkey.

They talk like hysterical internet posters.

TalkSport poll is currently,

-Who would win out of a fight? Peter Schmeichel or Roy Keane?-

 :)

Has JW been on yet?

Nope.

No

The way that Durham is calling for the sacking and career end of Joey Barton, you can only guess that Wray will be torn a new one.

 :popcorn:

That's just Durham doing his usual 'Troll' act. To be fair, he's usually alright when Chairman etc speak to them.

Fair enough, I'm aware the controversies of Durham but not listened to him before this afternoon.

Keane, no question :)

28 pages and counting....

Depends on the rules - Peter Schmeichel is a big guy.

Here he is

Durham has indeed toned it down.

Jeezer is nailing this

Sounds like McCormick will be nothing more than a figure behind-the-scenes. If this was emphasised when the news was leaked then I don't think it would have caused as much of a response.

How familiar are you with the internet and football forums during pre-season? ;)

Well enough Barry and yes there was also going to be a bit of a debate.

That said, I think there's a big difference between an offender joining club with a view of playing in front of thousands of fans to that of an offender training with the club with a view to using his football ability to work in the community.

Wray did a good job, certainly no 'sanctimonious lip service'. Durham focused on the notion that he was going to become a professional footballer despite Wray focusing on community (along with Spurs fan who called in).

Fan on the phone saying he's returning his season ticket because of this. Missing the point of what Wray was saying throughout his whole interview.

Joke!

Some people really are morons. We haven't even signed him, it's only a trial and besides we have now said we won't be offering him a contract although I suspect that's just been said to play down the uproar a bit.

The club have released an official and free video of Jezza basically saying that he (McCormick) is not here to be signed up.

They have posted it on Facebook and the the majority of respondents on that very Facebook post are expressing their disgust at us signing him.

By Jove, one wonders about humanity at times.

I can't stand the FB page. So many morons comment on there.

He's now been likened to Abu Qatada. (It means no worries)

I thought Dorset Red had chilled a bit with old age  ::)

Jeremy Wray?

McCormick.

Although Jezza is equally as disgusting and Evil.

Its all getting a bit ridiculous on the facebook pages, people cant read or listen to the fact that we ARE NOT signing LM and are continously slating the club for signing him. Also seen some blaming the club on his short prison sentence?  :crash:

Fuck me there are some right fucking idiotic pricks around.

Amen to that

People are perfectly entitled to air their views but when they ignore everything that was mentioned before just makes me angry... and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

[url width=400 height=301]http://images.wikia.com/looneytunes/images/a/a2/Hydetweet.jpg[/url]

Really?

Yep :facepalm:

One bloke said if you accidentally misfired a gun and it hit someone that would be murder.

Jesus wept.

I also hear JW had a hand in 9/11

Look at this beauty, he goes to the University of Baghdad by all accounts.


Soldat Soldattin Just seen the ITN News, with the murdering scumbag that killed those two young children, and the smug vermin that represents the club. Love to see what would happen if the children that died were his kids, would he still feel the same I wonder?  :no:

There's all sorts of stuff going on behind that one

Facebook has become a pedestal for mongs. Never before have so many unintelligent idiots been able to get their attention seeking point in front of so many people.

Yes, the Jeremy Kyle generation really is in full swing on there, never had a fb account myself  :toocool:

With age I am learning to embrace the mong factor of the internet rather than shun it, it's a fantastic source of amusement that should be taken full advantage of.

I feel like Gervais playing with Pilkington, only I have many more Pilkingtons.

When you put it like that you have a very good point. Twitter has a fascinating breed of windowlickers that can provide hours of fun, although some from here seem to come across well and offer some good debate  :clap:

It's ripping the club apart now

Rosso, love the avatar: "She used to give me roses"

Lizzie!

I wish she would again..... Wonder what happened to Lizzie B?

I thought it had a touch of Planet of The Apes about it

 :girlgiggle:

Sky News current headline "Swindon Town defend drink drive goalkeeper"

Regardless of anything it's turned into a little bit of a PR own goal for us unfortunately

I blame those no-goods at BBC Oxford.

I did unfortunately. I deleted it irrevocably though, so now I'm allowed to cast scorn from my ivory tower.

I see Mike Parry (whoever that is) is tweeting bollocks on the subject now. He states our owners are horrible people for wanting to sign LM. Nice to know he knows his stuff.

They knew it would.

Yeppers

Although I don't think this was their ulterior motive

Just seen the JW video on STFC player, thought he came across very well and something very ballsy to do...as he states it could all have been pushed under the carpet...so fair play for JW coming out and providing an explanation!

Aint his nickname Porky? Fat Cunt :I'm a complete mofleakin Deak

I've never heard of Mike Parry before, but whoever he is he appears to be an absolute cretin. Hardly surprised to see he worked for TalkSport with comments like this...

Mike Parry is a grade A cunt. If i could be bothered to remember my twitter account I'd let him know so  :)

Its such a shame a summer of what should be celebration has turned to this. Hopefully it'll blow over when word gets out we aren't employing him.

One thing though, why was/is he going on pre-season tour. Or was that radio report not true.

Mike Parry is a fucking nob, him going on about child killers. Bit rich seeing as he is a scouser

Am I right in remembering that both Pook and Nicholas were done for drink driving while at the club? Apologies to both of them if I misremember, but there but for the grace of god go they.

Leslie Grantham, the bloke who played Dirty Den in Eastenders killed a taxi driver prior to him getting into acting. Mike Parry must have been livid.

Whilst the reactions of some people are completely OTT, the problem is that mud sticks.

It's why we should have steered well clear of this from the outset.

I hope it doesn't, but the negative publicity could easily put off companies looking at sponsoring the club.

This.

I dont think it will tbh, people thought that would happen with Paolo being put in charge and we have some pretty decent sponsors

I don't think we are a big enough club for this to have a truly detrimental impact on us. You read the headlines and yes it does look bad with the way they are wording them but like all stories, they fade away.

For me, long term, I can't see people going "hey look Swindon Town are playing, you remember when they allowed a guy, I forget his name, whose drink driving killed two youngsters train with them over a summer just after he was released from prison. Scumbags."

Notts County have survived despite employing Lee Hughes, we'll do the same when it eventually blows over.

Or even Oldham who took him on while he was still in prison!

Once the England team start getting up to no good this will all be forgotten!

Why the fuck have they even thought about giving him a trial...........there are lots of decent keepers out there who dont have the baggage.

Tried to stay out of this tbh until all sides of the story had come out.

I think most agree that although he deserves a chance etc but i cant help wish in a way that this was happening elsewhere.

The one thing that does get me more than anything though is that i can't help but feel the club really should of gone about this a different way,i think for all the good our board has done it was a pretty poor effort to not at least contact the victims families first ad at least let them know what we are doing rather than find out through misleading headlines.

I don't get why this should be the club's responsibility. Isn't there some kind of victim support system which should be keeping the families up to date on what is happening? Either there isn't or they haven't been doing their job properly as everything seems to come as a surprise and shock to them. Which is also surprising as he isn't being treated any differently than other prisoners being released early.

It doesn't help having certain sections of the media spinning it for dramatic effect, I'm sure it helps their sales but it isn't helping the families involved.

I agree with jonny. I don't think STFC have done anything harmful to the family - it's the media who have misrepresented "facts" and created hysteria.

I just think moraly that the family club of the year who happen to sponsor the very charity that was needed on that tragic day would of had the decency to let them know or at least not wait for this to be leaked out the way it has been.

The Family Excellence Award is an accolade based on the matchday experience judged by a 'mystery shopper'. It's given to multiple clubs but we were just the best out of the bunch in L2. It has little to do with anything else (I think) and it certainly wouldn't jeopardise any future assessment if the club signed Luke McCormick (which we're not).

I've listened to Wray's interview, yesterday I stated I thought he just wanted the player regardless of the shitstorm. Today after hearing his second interview and clarification I think he is sincere in what he says regarding rehabilitation. So I guess I owe an albeit indirect apology there (I'm sure he's following this thread). Still don't agree with his opinion mind.

Whats mike parrys twitter?

Want to have some fun.

@mikeparry8

Parry was late to the show wasn't he?

How long will it take before he blocks you then? I give it until lunch.

Wont be able to get on there until this afternoon, in a meeting all morning

He'll love that. He's a shock jock and people like you are all just grist to his mill. If you really want to upset him, ignore him

He's basically a fat noel edmonds isn't he?

Jezza reads the TE Forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :clap:

Now he is threatning to quit

Who?  Jeremy Wray, Like McCormick, Mike Parry or Noel Edmonds?

Whilst I strongly do not share his views, the last thing I'd want is for him to quit.

100% Agree, i think he is getting pissed off with it all

Fair play, Batch.  You have taken a steady line since the news broke, and, whilst I disagree with you, that is the nature of a controversial issue.  Very few people on these pages are ready actually to listen to what's going on and publicly change their view.

The real problem is that we have all been dealing with second/third and fourth hand information and gossip, especially from tabloid style media people who will always do everything they can to make trouble, especially for people who have been convicted of serious crime (except when its their media practices, of course, then its everybody else's fault.)  We just get the headlines to go on.

The fact is there are processes involved in releasing someone from prison, and it does include informing victims.  It really is not the business of anyone other than the authorities to get involved formally in that process, quite simply because it is so controversial.  As shown, the family of the two boys, absolutely understandably, resent McCormick's release...full stop.  Nothing will change that.  They opposed him getting a job in a charity shop, so they were bound also to object to him training with a football club.

The club were approached.  It was not their idea.  All prisoners on day release are found opportunities to see how they adapt to life 'outside'.  The club, with a strong sense of community and social responsibility (a feature of STFC  which I strongly support and admire) felt they should respond positively, but clearly consulted within the club as they should have done.  the controversial part, really, and about which it seems they had considerable discussion, has been to imply that he might get a contract at the end of the process.  That is clearly still not decided.  If the view is that he should, after everything else is taken into account, I personally would support that decision; but I fully understand and accept that others see it differently, and judge the club's reputation differently.  Sometimes (not always) having the courage of one's convictions (pun not intended), against public opinion actually stands to gain street-cred, even if that is in the longer-term.

As for the lad's family, I just hope that those with responsibility for victim support are working hard with them, privately, to help them and support them through this horrible time, because it is they who have the responsibility to do so - its not good enough just to leave it all to blood-letting in the media, and for STFC - who only responded to an official request - to take all the sh1t.

They actually read half of my email out, glad i didnt have a rant now.

Is there a Jeremy Wray appreciation thread running?

There should be one

What is being said? unfortunately at work with no access to a radio

Jeremy Wray "On a point of principle, if i dont have the majority support on this i will back down from the club completly and step aside on a point of principle"

Lose Wray, lose Di Canio.

Exactly, a ready-made excuse for a PDC exit

You have to respect his principles, but I would hope he doesn't make a rash decision. The club looks to be making real strides forward under his stewardship and were he to continue for a while he could help to build something really special.

I don't think this should be a resignation issue.  Just makes me all the more frustrated that we got involved with this in the first place.  How the fuck have we allowed Luke McCormick to become our problem?

But people shouldn't be held to that kind of ransom because their set of values are different from the clubs. Though I need to make it crystal clear this was not what Wray is trying to do (he was absolutely not saying back me or I walk)

PS Mr Wray, you made the call now deal with it and move on, not run away. OK I don't agree with you on this issue, but this club needs you.

Cannot believe this thread is 34 pages long!

He did say if he doesnt have the majority support on this he would step down

Yes he did, but I think that is very different from saying "back me or sack me", i.e. he isn't asking people to change their mind, more stating he would go if it is deemed a bad call (and that includes the opinions of sponsors and the footballing world not just us fans).

Mr Wray said he had no time for people going off on one threatening to rip their season ticket up. Would his quitting be anything but the same thing from the other end?  I guess it depends if he though his resignation would benefit STFC, which I don't think it would.

I don't think Wray is looking to leave, he's far too ambitious and level-headed to end his tenure now.

But Wray is a major factor behind Di Canio's Swindon Town career and if this issue rumbles on he might just go. I'm still of the opinion that this will blow over in time though.

No one should allow this issue to rumble on.  It's a side show, and one that we had every oppportunity not to get involved in.  We are, potentially, 12 months in to a growth period for the club that could secure a brighter future.  The ground is ripe for redevelopment.  We have a young, ambitious manager.  Throw all that away for the sake of a row about an ex-Plymouth keeper who has never turned out for us?  I just cannot fathom how JW would allow this to jeopardise everything else he has had a hand in achieving...and everything he could achieve in the years ahead.

I can. It's big news at the moment, so why woudn't the most popular forum of the club concerned not be discussing it?

Wray has to stay. His calmness under pressure and his decision making has been spot on this last year. A fantastic chairman in my opinion.
I think he is more important to us than any other individual at the club,Any player and Di canio included.

Fair point Batch, FWIW i agree with you whole heartedly on this

I agree fully. I'm just addressing the worst case scenario and by that I'm referring to Swindon Town and nothing else.

 Opinions are like assholes everybody haz one.   :eek:

Let's not generalise..

http://news.asiantown.net/r/18257/Chinese-man-born-with-no-anu--115---doctor-created-a-hole-so-he-squeezed-faeces-out-with-hands.html

I think the condition is called Imperforate Anus.

Haz?!! What the fuck is that?

It's gangsta, recognise.

We are on Jeremy Vine at Noon by all accounts

Great. I get the impression that Jeremy Vine loves to stir up a bit of shit, so I'm sure he'll have some fun with this.

He plays it pretty fair to be honest.

I know he does like to get a balanced view and so invites debate from both sides, but he's equally good at poking both sides with a big shitty stick.

He has to play devil's advocate, to an extent, to get a debate going.  But, as arriba says, he does tend to be fair.

I'm gonna tweet him. anyone know his thingy?

@thejeremyvine

ta

Who asked us to take on McCormick anyway?

Was it the FA? I have a hunch it was, as something was mentioned about LM speaking with the FA about coaching. If the FA did approach us about this, I think they should do the right thing and stick their head above the parapet also.

They will still fine us

Didn't his agent approach the club based purely on geographical grounds?

I think Wray was pretty clear about why we got involved in this. We're a community club and they take this seriously, which means playing an active role in the community. They were approached to help rehabilitate an ex-offender and as a community club they felt that getting involved was the right thing to do.

Here we go......

How's the interview going?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
not great for us as a club and even worse for the player imo

The guy (Derek Ballantyne?) who was first at the scene put a very emotive point across, poor chap started crying, cant imagine what that must have been like really. Only a short pre recorded snippet from JW then a woman from some reform group.

Its fair too say that millions of people hearing the chap cry wont have won us any new fans.

Still going on now, some lady from swindon on the phone now, arsehole Parry to follow apparently

Minor shareholder on now venting his anger towards the board

I'm listening.

It's frustrating to listen people dwelling on the idea of 'signing' this man.

Ex swindon lad Gilbert o sullivan on now. Coincidence?

This whole topic is interesting to see and hear people's views on this subject.

What was the chap who got done for rape? When he gets released will there be as much controversy? No he didn't kill anyone but he knew what he was doing.

It's a difficult decision to make, and who-ever makes that decision to sign him/give him a job will have big balls to do it.

Let me put this to you. He is well known player. If he trains as say a tradesman and he turns up at your door would you turn him away as you knew what he did?

  I like it

This is so depressing.  We said earlier in the week that this would be divisive, and so it is proving.  Well intentioned, but also completely avoidable.  Feels as if we've been mugged.

Having seen what is happening, I hope the penny has now dropped with McCormick and that he leaves promptly - before any further damage is done.  If he does, this could blow over in a few weeks.

Who is he? Came across as a right cock.

I imagine McCormick's participation at Swindon will end like it did when it began, very quietly.

Remarkable to think that this wasn't 'discovered' for five months.

I can't help but feel as though another party (the FA perhaps?) have lumbered this on us and are hiding from the flack themselves.

If it was any company beyond Swindon Town and those who represent Luke McCormick then I would suggest that it would probably be the PFA.

I was under the impression Lukes agent asked around a few clubs, with the PFA saying they will support him when he is released?

So was I. I was just entertaining Flashheart's opinion because it's a valid point.

I personally doubt The F.A. had much input but I would not be surprised if the union were being kept up to date.

Very valid point indeed.

With it being a Friday a statement from somewhere could be possible

No, JW explained this on Radio Swindon this morning (it'll be on iPlayer later apparently, well worth a listen). He's in a prison nearby (think it's Leyhill Open prison in Gloucs but can't remember where I read that) so we are one of the closest pro clubs so it was the Probation Service who approached us as part of the standard preparation for release stuff. I'd imagine they also approached other nearby clubs (Nam, Villa, maybe?) as well but got told to do one by them. But I'm just speculating on that. But it wasn't the FA anyway.

Surely that changes the complexion of the argument a bit, haven't heard that emphasised in any of the other media coverage. If the club has just responded to the request of a local government organisation - while I appreciate and respect that given the nature of the crime involved it doesn't sit well with some people - it's hardly an egregious error of judgment that should cause such a vicious backlash against the board?

I don't think this will have any effect on the club beyond publicity - which I don't think is negative from a sponsorship stand point (brand awareness is all they really care about and all publicity creates eyeballs, which, when all is said and done, is what matters to sponsors).

I would also be shocked if something like this stops people going. It's all hot air and merely stoked by the polarised opinions around them.

Sure it's a bit shit from a fans perspective as we've all got a different opinion and all know we're right, but like everything in the world of the media circus it's forgotten about in a nano second and once the media forget, the people forget.

I will eat my bollocks if this has any detrimental effect on the club. (Providing he doesn't sign, which although this has been confirmed, some people still seem to think there's a contract waiting for when he's released.)

I'd read that it was his agent that contacted the club. However, even if they didn't contact the club the prison and probation services would have been heavily involved - they would have to approve the placement, the same as they would where he lives and he'll have to keep in regular contact with them. He would have had to get special permission to go abroad on the tour as well.

Think a lot of people see him being released as the end of his sentence when it isn't, he'll just be serving the remainder of it (with restrictions in place) in the community. You might not agree with it but that is how it works.

I think all of this highlights the difficulties society has with the criminal justice system and vice versa.

Criminals don't 'rot in hell', they get released from prison and return to life outside of prison. Unfortunately, it seems, clearly, that many people find it hard to deal with the whole of the criminal justice process.

An offender gets tried, convicted, sentenced, serves time, gets released (if appropriate) and returns to everyday society. We (society in general) don't seem to be able to deal with this scenario.

Can society ever get to the level of maturity (for want of a better word) where sentences for crimes are understood and accepted, and considered justifyable punishment, and then progress to the next stage whereby the criminal who has served his/her punishment is accepted back into society with the knowledge that the past cannot be changed nor forgotten, but with the intentions that the future can be influenced as possitively and productively as possible?

I don't think STFC is doing the wrong thing with regard to McCormick. However, I would question the length of his custodial sentence as being a suitable punishment for the appalling crime he commited.

I guess some people will only be satisfied when Sharia law is introduced into the UK and the likes of McCormick are unable to resume footballing duties as a result of his left hand being chopped off...

Perhaps he can become a politician. They're a bunch of crooks.

I just can't believe the turn this has now taken.   A completely avoidable situation has now turned into a possible reason for Jeremy Wray to quit, which would be a disaster for the club.

 If there was genuinely never going to be any chance of Mccormick signing why was the word 'trial' used? This to me infers seeing how somebody performs over a period of time with a view to signing them permanently if they do well?  If it was made clear from the start this wasn't an option, maybe the backlash wouldn't have been so severe?

I think Wray is a superb chairman, but he surely must have realised even taling him on trial, wouldn't go down well in some quarters, so why take the risk?

It's also interesting that Plymouth washed their hands of him as soon as he was charged and there's clearly no interest from them in helping his rehabilitation?  

Why couldn't we just have a quiet summer basking in the glory of promotion as champions and looking forward to next season?  

Agree with that, JTR.  As I alluded to earlier, the Chairman needs a way out of this now.  It's not fair.  He seems to be shell-shocked; completely surprised at the reaction to a gesture that he made with the best of intentions.

The only person who could provide a way out is McCormick himself.  If JW retracts the offer of training/a trial with STFC, he looks as if he has been forced in to a U-turn.  If McCormick pulls out himself, no-one loses face.  The player must realise that there is no future for him here, or at any other club at this level.  He needs to do the right thing, leave us as we were and then keep his head down for a while.

Having read and listened to a lot, this whole debate has made me want us to sign him now if i'm honest.

As an anti anti gesture? Or because you have changed/ made up your mind?

Even if it resulted in Jeremy Wray standing down - surely not?

I'm with Ardiles, hopefully Mccormick himself or his agent will put an end to this.  Considering Mccormick now has a child of his own, I'm sure he wouldn't want his family to be targeted with abuse etc.  If this continues to play out in the public eye that is more than likely what will happen (and I don't mean Swindon fans will be the instigators).

No, I think I have genuinely changed my mind... maybe it's sun stroke! Wray should tell all the lynch mob to kindly take their custom elsewhere, I think this was a genuine humanitarian gesture, and I've started to feel for McCormick as there it's nothing he can do but try and rebuild his own life - no crime in that.

Tweet of the day

Tans‏@tansstfc1983

@mikeparry8    weight watchers.

 :clap:

Fair enough.

I don't think Wray should, will or has ever told people who don't agree with him to take their custom elsewhere though. Disagreeing with a point of view doesn't make anyone wrong.

I know, i was referring to the hysterical minority who would boycott and generally cause a scene, not the reasonable fellows.

Putting aide the emotive nature of the subject and both very credible arguments for and against giving McCormick a chance to train with the club.  Surely common sense would dictate this was always going to be every tabloid paper and radio station’s wet dream?

If Wray felt that strongly about rehabilitation and offering him a chance to train on probation then we should have released a clear statement of the club’s intent rather than keeping it quiet and waiting for the inevitable bollocks that has been in the press the past couple of days.

From a personal perspective I was against giving McCormack any chance to succeed in a role which thousands aspire to.   Playing football is a privilege and while it’s a mistake many of us have made two young lads lost their life.  I don’t begrudge the man a career and the right to earn a living just not in such a privileged role.  

After a lot of the utter rubbish I have read and heard I am now all for signing him up and making him club mascot.  

Another victim of the hate mob will be Alan McCormack. Oiy, aren't you that child killer who plays for Swindon?

Porky blocked me.

All i did was tweet 'weight watchers' to him

Haha told you it wouldn't take long

Just asked him if he's listened to Jeremy's interviews in reply to his spew up one

That bloke is a shock jock and a cretin. Do not feed the troll.

I was being gentle to start with, he probably won't reply anyway

Being discussed on 5live now ....

Jeremy Wray is on now.

Jezzer on now ...

Is it really necessary for it to be discussed on Radio 2 and Radio 5 on the same day, and on Radio 5 more than once? Nolan on 5 Live now is unlikely to be good, a relentlessly Mail-ist tone in choice of themes and level of discussion in my personal opinion.

Am not listening right now.

Is it really necessary for us to be still going on about this at all?

When we people understand were are not signing him? Seriously Jezza has mentioned it a good 4 or 5 times now but they keep coming onto that point. Some of the questions have been ridiculous.

Even people from Swindon are getting this wrong aswell...

They are getting angry about a hypothetical situation

Apparently it's fucking easy to become an electrician, especially if you're a convict.

This women isn't the brightest...

I'd tell Michelle to stop being a thick cunt, shut up, and listen.

WE ARE NOT SIGNING

Shredded their season tickets........

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick: :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

This is going to get to a point where if he does not come here wray will walk.This is slowly destroying all the last years good work,good intentions meant or not

So what radio station is this on then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_five_live

It needs beating into Michelle that he isn't signing

She raised a good point if he had signed. He hasn't and won't be cheered on by her children though.

Even then, I wouldn't bet against McCormick being better than the majority of our keepers between Digby and Fods

I think it's more a case of them pulling their hair out in frustration really, at least that's what I'd be doing. Doesn't necessarily have to be a long term thing.

I thing Jezza should take heart that the outrage in this case is represented by Michelle, who is blatantly not that bright.

Michelle, I can't believe we're still on about this, give us a break will ya

Some people are only looking into this one way, this guy will come back into the job he loves and will become idolised. He won't, he definetly won't. Jezza is simply offering a mean to try and right a wrong. The guy from the Guardian made a great Example, Tony Adams served time after a drink driving incident and came out and set up a support group, yes he didn't kill someone but he could of, what he did was as stupid as McCormick's incident but was lucky no one died. This man is idolised as an Arsenal legend. Chapman at Oxford got next to no media attention and is heavily involved with Oxford but gets no mentioned in this argument. It's simply Swindon offering a guy a chance to give back to a community from horrific mistake. If no one is allowed a second chance in life then thats ridiculous.

This story has dragged on far too long, and has got way too much attention.

That's because they've been charged.

The boiler example

What?

I very much agree

Look at Lee Hughes too, drink, cocaine, killed, did a runner and out after three years...after an initial debate he routinely gets reported for scoring a late winner here and there and his role as a footballer is NEVER now questioned by the sanctimonious Beeb.

The reality is that this is today's moral outrage fone in fodder - it will blow over.

If the Beeb is going to campaign to change the law so that victims' families (if all agreed) can control where someone works after they come out then all well and good.  That's a bit boring and unlikely too though. 

Otherwise the sensationalist mingers shouldn't wind up the victim's families even more only to dump them and move on to the next story to get the phone lines buzzing.

Totally agree with this.  If I'm honest, I'm not sure this is going to blow over as we hoped.  It's drawn too much media attention and far too many people have poked their nose in with their views.

Even if Mccormick was to pull out himself and end the issue, Wray could still quit over it.  What happens if he does quit, will Mccormick still come here?  I would guess not rendering the whole situation even more pointless.

'm becoming very concerned.

Sad but true.

Not sure what he expcted though.

There are 8000 town fans, and an issue like this is bound to harvest the full set of opinions.

I fully believe these opinions would be replicated anywhere in the country. So my opinion is if Wray is disappointed we don't all share his views then I think he has not only missread Swindon fans, but society in general.

Fwiw I can stomach the situation as proposed with reservations. I don't want to expand on that for obvious. Reasons

Jeremy Wray has been brilliant for this club....many fans share his views many dont.

I feel there are many Goalkeepers on the scraphead as good as him if not better.... ironically one has just left us who could have been an ideal number two for another year or so.


This keeper is a steady keeper with a decent pedigree but in my opinion there are keepers out there as good as or better that the club could have gone after.

Anyhow i thought it was Paolo who signs the players he wants so Jeremy Wrays personal feelings should have no bearing on this matter really.

This is why I can contently believe that this arrangement was more about rehabilitation than being a member of the playing staff. Wray would certainly have the final say in that respect.

It's the fucking pointlessness of the whole saga that gets me.  This should never have become our problem in the first place.  Makes you want to pull your hair out.

As I've said before - the best way out now would be for McCormick himself to voluntarily withdraw from the club.  He must be able to see that this is going nowhere.  Then the issue simply goes away...and Jeremy Wray can get on with the task of taking the club forward.

If everyone shared that view McCormick and others would never be integrated back into society. We'd have more re-offenders with less being contributed to society.

I committed a drink driving offence nearly 5 years ago. It was stupid of me and I was punished. Although I didn't crash my car or cause harm to anyone I potentially could have done. Some people said I should have been banned from driving for life. Let me tell you that the ban I got was punishment enough and I also attended a driving & alcohol awareness course which was worth my attendance, though I really can't believe the DSA doesn't include a whole section of driving theory on alcohol. They do for speed and have even started adding in some basic safety checks into the practical test. Why not alcohol/perils of drink driving?

Due to being able to get on with my life and career, the tax, national insurance and student loan contributions made each month due to my earnings are 2.5 times that of 5 years ago. If I had not been lucky enough to live in our society this wouldn't be the case.

If you never looked to rehabilitate anyone and let the public decide the length of sentences then you'd probably still be locked up for pinching a packet of sweets from the shop when you were 8 years old. It's human nature to let emotions rule and somewhere one person will be more upset by an offence than another. These people often scream loudest.

I will say however, that I feel McCormick's sentence was lenient and I'm in no way stating that the things above are as bad as McCormick's offence. But that part is over with which is what Wray is trying to explain and that's not the club's issue.

But it is not pointless. Potentially damaging and problematic - yes, because of the extreme emotions involved and the inability of people to comprehend the whole picture. We can't all shy away from problematic situations when they arise.

At least STFC / Wray has the balls to confront a very difficult situation, and one which just goes to show how society cannot seem to cope with the question of the rehabilitation of convicted criminals back into society.

Wishing that tough situations simply go away isn't how life is. McCormick and other offenders still exist post-custody and society has to deal with them in a realistic way. Hopefully in a way that is beneficial to as many people as possible.

Wray should stay true to his beliefs, not quit, and if crowds fall to 4,000 next season, so be it. What he shouldn't do is pander to the ill-informed, those who don't want to listen to his reasons, and those who shout the loudest.

I never said he should not be rehabilitated.  But there are many, many better places for that rehabilitation to take place than a (relatively) high profile football club that is very much under the media spotlight...as we all know.

McCormick was a footballer prior to the incident in which he killed the two boys.  But just as the family have had to accept changes to their lives, I think it is entirely reasonable for McCormick to expect to make some changes to his.  He should not automatically expect to resume his football career immediately on his release...and we, as a club, have no obligation to provide a means for him to do so.  Just my view.

Or for Di canio to say he doesn't think he's good enough for our squad

If he did so, he would not be acting in the best interests of the club, which is his job.  We're a football club, not an arm of the social services.  And as for 'pandering to the ill-informed', rather arrogant, wouldn't you say, to cast those who disagree with your personal view - many, for very well thought out reasons - as 'ill informed'?  There is no right and wrong here - just a lot of differing opinions.  That's why we now have a divided fanbase.

Ardiles there are many, many ill-informed people out there.

Jezza said repeatedly last night that we are not signing the guy, but the callers completely ignored the real issue and continued with their rage against us signing him.
im

If they want to disagree with the issue about us aiding in his rehabilitation then so be it, but how the fuck should he be expected to listen to people that are unwilling or unable to consider the real issue?

I been watching this thread with interest as it kind of effects me because my wife lost her mother to a drunk driver,I 100% agree with the post above about him being at a high profile club but I do believe that the bloke needs to get back into society and work again but not at something he loves doing which is playing.I also agree that his jail term was way to short as he was a grown adult and knew about drinking and driving and what harm it can do.

People will have different opinions on this but would soon change their mind had it happened to one of their family.You can always forgive but never forget.

I believe he is acting in the best interests of the club by reaffirming its position as part of the community in which it is based, and taking on community responsibilities. LM is a footballer, his union and his profession are taking responsibility in dealing with him as an individual and, hopefully, helping society in general. I think it is the best place for him, rather than dumping him elsewhere.

I did not intend to appear arrogant, and I apologise if this is how it read. Some of the media responses to this and individual members of the public's responses to the situation have been ill informed. For example, STFC is not signing LM.

I do think there are rights and wrongs here, especially when factual errors have been made. However, I whole-heartedely agree with you that there are a lot of differing opinions, and rightly so - society is never going to agree on matters such as sentence tarifs, rehabilitation etc.

Fanbases will always be divided about something, be it the value of a certain player, whether a fascist should be appointed as manager, etc etc. I think it is good that a topic such as this can be discussed to this extent and with a huge level of honesty and openness.

If anyone else is considering shredding their season ticket-Ill give you a tenner for it.

Hope  you dont mind me asking.What is your wifes view

I'm with Ardiles completely.  The whole situation around rehabilitation would make sense if he was our player before this happened.  He wasn't and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Plymouth didn't even wait for the court case before cutting all ties.  Why should we risk  alienating an element of our support in order to assist with something that is bugger all to do with us? It's not worth the upset and hassle it's caused and the longer term consequences for the club could be disastrous.  I'm more concerned about that than Luke Mccormick being rehabilitated and if that bothers anyone I'm sorry.

Another point which may have been mentioned and I've missed, was that he also had no insurance, which actually makes the final outcome of drink driving on top even worse imo.

If we are rehabilitating the guy, whether he is good enough for the squad is irrelevant.

She thinks he should be able to work at the club but more behind the scenes so it's out of the public limelight.Her story was not the same as the drunk driver was a hit and run which makes thing's different.

Maybe it hasn't been mentioned because it isn't true?

Does not agreeing make me ill informed? I've heard his argument and although I changed my stance on what the motivations were for bringing in McCormick, I still hold my belief that it is the wrong thing to do (though I'd never not attend games on the issue, even had we signed him).
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One thing that has nagged at me, the media reported McCormick was off on pre-season tour with the squad. Was that report false?

They must have assumed that he was going on trial, saw we were going to Italy on a tour and must of added 1 and 1 together.

Oh, come on

He's not saying people that people disagreeing with the rehabilitation issue are ill informed. He's saying that people still raging against us signing him, for example, are ill informed. They are ill informed because that is simply not the case.

Yes, perhaps Plymouth would have been a better place for him, but I don't know whether this was investigated/offered/declined. I also have no idea about the locational considerations for this kind of day release scheme. I don't think STFC and Wray are doing anything wrong and I admire them for confronting it. Like all of us, I hope it does not lead to a disastrous outcome for the club. If it does, I won't be laying any blame on Wray.

Your views, and Ardiles' views aren't bothersome to me, so no need to apologise as far as I'm concerned.

No not at all. As Flash has said, there have been ill-informed, ie factually incorrect, statements made despite what Wray has said.

You are perfectly entitled to maintain your view that what STFC has done regarding McCormick is a wrong decision. I've nothing against that.

Not sure about the tour thing.

How do you work that out?.....there are lots of prisoners ready for Rehab who need rehab.....are they invited as well?

As far as i am aware no pub footy footballers serving time have been invited...so of course it is relevant.

Sorry, read it the wrong way.

Ad how many of those has Swindon been asked to assist ? I'm sure you have the facts to hand.

Leefer. How many amateur/pub footy footballers have football as their trade?

I'm with you completely on this subject and can relate to your own experience. You've made great points in this and other threads on this subject and they have not been picked up on. People should be taking notice if they are not.
 I would be locked up with the key thrown away myself. People can reform(which is what it is about)

As the case has been in the court and the sensationalist attitudes to it are there for all to see you make a good point about the difficulty in getting work.
Employers will look at his record and dismiss him immediately for a potential job.

Point taken.....but if you believe the club are doing this just for rehab reasons then they are taking a dodgy line in my view.
As  have stated in my opinion some crimes mean you pay the ultimate price with regards your future employment.
Maybe time inside could have been spent training for a future career.....he hasn't got one in pro football i dont think.....some people will see that as sad....some will see that as a price paid for doing something as devasting as he did.

I think we can all agree on the fact it is a very hard subject for an easy answer.

I agree with your last point.

I really don't see why you would have to change career because you have been to prison.
Does that apply to all careers, or just football?

Personally if had been done for drink driving killing two and maiming one i wouldn't want to stay in a trade where thousands each week were pointing at me and screaming abuse.
Not good for me....not good for my team mates.....not good for the club.
Many prisoners come back to there former careers....but the difference is they are representing themselfs and a company wher as this guy is representing a whole community....and that community pays his wages in tickets so they have a right to not want him(like me) or want him(like you)..it is a real toughy.


As i keep saying just my view.

And he has chosen not to change of career, which has to be his choice.

FWIW I suspect he will very shortly drift into non league or head abroad to try and stay in the game.

What was wrong with Cheltenham, Bristol, Oxford, why Swindon. We should be all talking about how back to back promotions was going to pan out. Makes me detest this guy even more if that was possible. Whether he signs or not I don't give a damn. If it was a fitness thing just find a gym somewhere. If McComick wants to do something good then he should leave.

Si, I don't always agree with every post you write, but that one there is a cracker. Well written with an excellent point. Fair play to you.

The NIMBY arguement is very tiresome now

I'm trying to understand why he chose us. But for the record no I absolutely don't want this scumbag at our club or my back yard!

That's exactly how I see it as well.  To Si & others highlighting the importance of rehabilitation...I don't think anyone is arguing against this.  But we are strongly of the view that a football club like ours is not the place for this to happen.  It's a more nuanced point.

McCormick needs to keep his head down, apply himself to something productive and work his way back towards a useful life from there.  Trying to do this with the cameras trained on him for 10 months a year is not going to help with this.

How do we know that isn't his intention?

Why would this happen?

Keep his head down how?

When he was on day release a year ago he worked in a charity shop. The Sun sent someone to take photo's and video him, then contacted the family for their comments for an article.

Whatever he does isn't as relevant as you think, the family said pretty much the same about him working in a charity shop as they have about him training with Swindon Town. If the media think there is a story they'll have a camera there no matter what he is doing.

The events of the last few days tell you everything you need to know about how his being at STFC has (and will) attract media attention.

Do you think the cameras are going to be at the training ground for 10 months?

Think it already is. Google is listing only 6 news articles in the past 24 hours, compared to 1700 in the last 7 days.

Though it will blow up again when he is released, then tail off after a week.

You're right. We don't know.