Thetownend.com

Get fucked you tongans i am doing this.

3-0 win.

i reckon it will be off.as soon as the covers are off it will freeze

2-1 charlie will open the scoring then that torres gezza and vince will score the winner!!

That "torres gezza" is not available according to the bbc. He's off with flu apparently? Happy days!  :clap: Now if only he'd passed it on to Matt Tubbs!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/9260155.stm

3-1 to us, Austin (2) and Ritchie our scorers.

The game will be off, but if its not off it will go to extra time at 0-0 and then a lucky goal by us winning 1-0 Austin, 5,875 crowd.

It won't be off, saturday was far worse. The ground is actually quite soft

2-1 town.

3k max

Ive decided not to go, going to the pub instead

I'm going for a resounding 4-2 win! :P

Meh. I've decided I don't care. The prize is only Derby at home in the next round after all.

I think we might lose on penalties.

yes it's only Derby in the next round but it's a beatable team for us then to progress to the 4th round. a good cup run could inspire our league performances and push us up the table.

3.0 town tonight.

We're playing for a place in the 3rd round against a team from a higher division - in a season where our chances of doing something in the league are not currently looking great.  This game tonight is massive.

The ease of our cricket win has gone right to my head, so I'm feeling worrying optimistic about our chances this evening.

I am going for a 3-1 win to the Town with goals from Austin, Pericard and Prutton infront of a partisan crowd of 4,120.

For some reason I am really quite looking forward to freezing my tits off watching Town play someone like Crawley on a cold Tuesday night in December.

Is there a pitch insspection planned? Seems a lot colder than Saturday out there.

Don't forget it rained for a good hour and a half before kick off on saturday, so would probably feel warmer.

0-3.

That and the fact it was warmer; 4-5C Saturday and not the (predicted) high of -3C today.

So will the frost or the fog get it.

Cant see it being on, just too cold.

If it does go ahead Id say it will probably go all the way to fucking extra time and fucking penalties just because its fucking freezing. 1-1.

I dont even fancy going myself. So on that basis, a crowd of just 2600.

According to Crawley it's on

http://www.crawleytownfc.com/newsdetails.php?ID=1761

How low do you think we can go tonight?

I think it could be the worst attendance since Cambridge at home 2001.

Even our JPT games tend to pull 3500 fans.

how many are Crawley bringing?

7, maybe 8... not yet confirmed.

I'm hoping we might see Mr Frampton come on the pitch for a bit tonight as well! Thoughts...?   :hmmm:

Yeah, he wont be on the bench as hes cup tied apparently according to the OS.

Think I'll go 3-1

Pericard to score tonight and do the finger to the mouth celebration in front of the Arkells.

we'll lose 3-1

They've got that wrong surely. As Millwall havent played in it yet. Unless by fluke his half game at Orient was in the cup?

Frampton can't be cup-tied because the only games he has played in this season are at home to Huddersfield in the league, and the Yeovil game for us.

I expect it is Millwall not wanting him cup tied - that is going to be a bit cold out there tonight, not sure on the outside temp at the moment but it must still be about -1

Have made a late decision to go to this. Actually feel like we'll win tonight too - a close one though, 2-1.

Not been much above -3 all day over in Bassett.

Good man, it is good that you can give the ladies a rest tonight.  Where are you watching the game from young sir?

Currently saying it's minus 3 at the CG on my weather app.

Coldest game ever?

Reg whats the record ?

The first game at Crawley must have been close.

Dunno. I'll go wherever you guys are. DRS?

Port Vale at home when the fella we had on loan for a month paid for by the fans scored in a 1-0 win. FACT.

Big game tonight.

Would love to see us get to the 3rd round with a chance of getting to the 4th for the first time in a while.

DRS is closed tonight and after our forray into the Arkells for the Brentford JPT game I think we are going to return and hit the Town End pretty hard tonight.

Nah it was only -2 to -3c

It was -10c when I woke this morning but I do live 600 feet above sea level !

I reckon tonight could see - 5 to - 6c at SN1.

bollocks!  it was the one where at half time they said the match was in no danger of being called off.  then 5 minutes into the second half it was abandoned.  frozen pitch.

then the re arranged game still cost half price. conspiracy theorists maintained they played a bit of the second half because it meant we didn't get our money back! 

somewhere around 1990 I think.  reg?

Please note that I used the word FACT thereby making it 100% true.

No apology required.

Back on topic, I think we'll win tonight 2-0.

4,234 crowd.

Would love a nerve-free result tonight but can't see it.

2-1 win and Evans getting all angry near the end.

Ah, got the wrong end of the stick. Thought Town End was shut. TE it is!

Can't see the attendance breaking 3,000 tonight. Currently -3 in town.

If it's under 4500 I'll eat Mex.

I will be very surprised if its under 5k

Weather isn't stopping me. 3 pairs of socks, a nice warm coat, gloves, scarf. I'm fully armed for this one. Bring it on!

I normally do go to cup games but a mixture of being busy and pussying out of the cold mean I'm not tonight. Will be a low attendance, Crawley are supposedly struggling to reach three figures.

Minnows. Hope we thrash them.

I'm going for a clean sheet tonight: 2-0. 

Brass monkeys tonight so crowd of 4,761.

"Crawley 'til half 9" - Case in point!

Serves em fucking right...

Stood next to fat crook Evans in the Arkells on Saturday....wanted to push him down the stairs!

Watching us play Crawley once already is enough for me, I'll be in the pub.

I'm in the pub, some solitary pregame pints for me.

Crawley are the Non-League equivalent of clubs like Fulham, Blackburn and Wigan.  Status raised artificially by a wedge of cash from outside - and the interest in the club & attendances have never quite been able to keep up.  If Project Promotion succeeds, they will be vying with Accrington for the poxiest attendances in the lower leagues.

Edit:  ...which, incidentally, would be impressive if they had got where they were under their own steam (like Accrington have, or AFC Wimbledon).  Punching above your weight is an impressive achievement - mixing it with other clubs with greater resources than your own.  Not quite the same (in my view) though if all you have done is bought your league status.

 Grimsby I think.We were 1-0 up,Kevin Watson screamer.

I remember that game, Grimsby were down to 10 men as well, everyone was behind the Arkell's after ranting and raving........drew the rearranged game 2-2 or 3-3 I think.

As for tonight I've just got home from work and can't be bothered and none of the people I usually go with are bothering or the other season ticket holders who sit around me. If Crawley are struggling to bring 3 figures then I can't see it breaking 4,000 so it'll probably be around the same as the Brentford match.

Uh oh. From Twitter...

Crawley playing in red at the County Ground. Cup kit again...I still don't like the idea, but hey, if it's all we have to moan about not the end of the world.

Caddis is ill, Amankwaah starts, only change- Smith playing.

The teams are in -

Swindon Town: Phil Smith; Kevin Amankwaah, Scott Cuthbert, Sean Morrison, Michael Rose; Jon-Paul McGovern, David Prutton, Jonathan Douglas (c), Matt Ritchie; Charlie Austin, Vincent Pericard

Substitutes: David Lucas (GK), Alan Sheehan, Michael Timlin, Thomas Dossevi, Alan O'Brien, Lecsinel Jean-Francois, Simon Ferry

Crawley Town: Michael Kuipers; Pablo Mills (c), Scott Neilson, Craig McAllister, Kyle McFadzean; Dannie Bulman, Sergio Torres, Ben Smith, Glenn Wilson; Dean Howell, Matt Tubbs

Substitutes: Sam Rents, Danny Hall, Steve Masterton, Nick Jordan, Abdulai Bell-Baggie, Jamie Cook, Richard Brodie

Referee: P T Crossley

Caddis injured and is replaced by Manks at RB.

Fulham away (late 80's?)

Swindon to trounce these chavvy mofo's 4-0

I think we will win - 2-1
Austin and Pericard
Not many people will witness it, 4128

Bloody hell its cold out there. Will this survive the 90 minutes?!

Any chance Derby will have enough black on their shirts to force us not to wear the black kit on 3rd round day?

Digusting.

Only an idiot would predict a clean sheet.

2-0 to us.

Crawley to bring 112. It would have been 3000 but United are playing, it's cold, and nobody in Crawley knows the way out of Crawley.

Yep.....-10 ???

No not that one, it was earlier than that. It was midweek night game when home fans had the stratton bank. Which was a bit icey.

We're playing in black????

FUCK OFF!

For those of you that cannot make it, the game is being covered on BBC Five Live Extra

Orient

Splendid.

Phil King on 5Live SX sounding ridiculously biased. Good lad.

Apparently its -4 out there and could drop to -7! Lots of scouts in the stand, not good news.

Cheers for that. It's the same commentators, but the sound quality on World seems especially poor tonight. Much clearer on 5 Live Extra.

Not making much effort to be neutral on the national radio, good stuff.

May well have been, thanks!!
-------

Edit: False start at the county ground.

Why are people stressed at us wearing the black kit? I thought most people liked it?

I like it a lot.

But we wear red at home.

What Batch said. Some sort of farce involving the goal not being nailed down?

That Orien game is the one and only game I have ever taken a flask of hot drink to.  Abandoned around 50-60 mins in I think and the Bank was indeed icing over.

Evening folks... How have we started?

changing the identity of the club smacks of Franchisement.

Come on you blacks? UUUurrrgh.

I've noticed a couple of times this season the lino's point out one of the nets.

Why are we on 5 live extra when rangers, spurs and man u are all playing?

How do we know that Crawley didn't simply turn up in Red?  I mean Steve Evans is a cunt and all... :wink:

I think you are right on Orient. Jan 1991 seems bang on. Thanks. Its been driving me mad for years!

Nomnomnomnom gag.

Vic says a touch over 3K.

Lorient 0 Droylesdon 1.

Hi-just got in from work-how we doing

Fine thanks, you?

Wearing black eh? Not a fan of that... did the board learn nothing from the Wembley reaction; most fans have a penchant for us playing in traditional red, and rightly so.

Under some pressure at the moment

Nil Nil still... Throw the radio on, and if you're not local to "the town" it's on 5 live too...

fine thanks shit day

Isnt this part of the sponsorship deal with Samsung? We wear this kit for cup games? Am i making this up?

fuckin black kit. Fuck you board. Im putting the Ashes highlights on.

Yeah, think thats the idea behind it. A flawed idea at that.

5 Live extra. Sky channel 0144 if you don't have a DAB radio.

Some minor team on 5 Live.

Is this radio 5 extra on freeview?

Oh dear

Channel 706 apparently, if available.

http://www.freeview.co.uk/Channels/Radio/BBC-Five-Live-Sports-Extra

An we are 1-0 down. Yippie skippy.

Uh- Oh

Bugger

Oh dear oh dear. We sound absolutely hopeless.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/5livesportsextra/commentaries/

Fucksticks!

good play old boy :(

smith done by a smith

So it begins...

We've had a dreadful start - they deserved it to be fair.

Fucking hell
               Wilson sort this out :no:

JPM! 1-1!

Woo-hoo!

1-1 JPM, great ball from Rose.

thank fuck for jp

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssss :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'm feeling glad all over

We are going to win after going behind  :beers:

Nice work JP  :clap:

Good man JP.

9 each anyone?

Phew.

Woo

Sounds like a proper cup tie, end to end.

Is "vulnerablist" a proper word?

Well, if we're going to win now we will need to do something we haven't done for (nearly) a million years and that's come from behind.

Although I guess technically we could draw and win on pens which probably doesn't count.

We only conceded because Pericard was off the pitch.

Some part of me is enjoying the 5Live Sports extra listeners getting the insightful "get in there!" after our goal. Neutrality be damned, convert the masses!

I'm loving the way Phil King keeps talking about 'us' or 'we're doing this' - sod neutrality, let's have a bit of good ole fashioned BBC pinko bias

"That's a great challenge from Amankwaah, and Torres is still down injured"

Good work Kev :D

Why on earth is he referring to Torres as having a "Flu like illness"

Did he have flu, or is this a euphemism for something?

Aids i think

GRIDS

That goal makes up for McGovern being a completely useless fucktard in the original tie.

And I can't believe my comment on Page 1 only drew 2 (mini) bites.....Must.Try.Harder.

Where do the official match stats on BBC etc come from? McGovern has scored a goal and their keeper has had to make atleast one save (when he pushed it round for a corner), yet apparently we've only had one attempt all game.

A free kick on Michael Douglas ?! You what Phil ?!

Pinch of salt with their stats most games.

I did read it and thought 'What a cunt' but I thought everyone knows that anyway so didn't bother posting it..

Fair point......

Fouling him is really out of order, the poor fucker is not well at all.

Think we could do with half time as we're sounding a bit hopeless and is all Crawley

So glad at the moment I'm not there, we are getting battered.

Unless the pitch freezes during the break...

The lad is class.

2-1. Charlie Charlie Austin. Obviously.

Did Vic suffer a minor stroke whilst commentating on the goal then?

Great commentary! Not a clue what happened there.

Charlie Austin is a goal machine.  FACT.

Madness more or less his first touch

Yes come on Swindon :beers:

Well done Charlie 8)

Comedy gold on ITV at the moment... Corrie and the big gas explosion/tram crash

That Pericard fella seems to be having a reasonable game.

Nicely done Charlie, yet another goal!!

Austin is insatiable.

Austin scores from a pericard flick...

We're still playing shit though - well from what Vic is describing anyway

Possible Douglas red oh fucking hell.

Douglas has been a naughty boy by the sounds of it... could be walking.

Douggie is OFF. Oh bollocks.

Gone.

Red????


Fuck Douglas  >:(

Doesn't sound good, although the commentators say he got the ball. RED CARD. Bugger.

Great  :badmood:

Shit sticks

Sounds a bit like that Plymouth lad who got sent off, got the ball but went in hard enough for it not to matter.

You'd expect some sort of leniency based on the pitch but if our commentators think it could have been off it was probably nailed on.

Oh dear... we always miss him when he isn't running the show

It's ok, we've still got Michael Douglas.

Ferry on Pericard off should be half time swap

sadly true

Same old Swindon
Same old Swindon

Pericard's played well by the sounds of it... keep the big man on I say and stick with 4-3-2.

If the game gets called off, does the red card stand? :D

We have angered the football gods and we have had to make a sacrifice :)

You're best player should do it.

Ha ha bbc stats have douglas as a yellow.

Only sensible option IMHO.

BBC live text has Douglas only receiving a yellow card!

fucking modern game, you can't tackle anyone these days

Well if it was undeniably one foot then why has he gone? Dougie never does himself any favours with refs but you just cant tackle properly any more it seems.....

I would keep Pericard on, he's enjoying these conditions clearly, cant take Charlie off either, so I'd go three in midfield with Ferry on for Ritchie so that we go more narrow..

Vidiprinter knows:

SENT OFF: Swindon, Douglas, Serious Foul Play (45+2)

Now adjusted to show a red for Douglas

More worried that Dougie will miss league games. We're nowhere near as good without him.

It's quite possible to break somebody's leg with one foot. Perhaps you should actually see what happened before deciding if it was the right decision or not?

Still yellow in the text.

Lets face it, if Phil King thinks it was a "possible" red it must have been stonewall.

Orient down to 10 men as well...

Right sod 2-1 can we have the match abandoned now please so that the Douglas card doesn't count

Well obviously, its' also possible to break somebody's leg with no feet too. My understanding is that his leg isn't broken either.

Thanks for your advice, I'll bear it in mind when making decisions in future...or like everyone else that uses forums on matchdays...ill draw my opinions from other sources such as those in an informed, authorative position like commentators and my mates who are at the game..

Stupid challenge and totally unnecessary, would have been a yellow without the crawley players reaction though.

The commentators have said it was a possible red, and you didn't mention your mates at the ground, you based your argument on it being one-footed.

Frampton snowed in in Kent according to Fitton, what a pussy. I bet he has a Land Rover as well.

Fucking hell get a room ffs.Every thread

come on swinsea

We can beat these crawldon bastards!

Timlin for Peri Peri.

Good!!

Swinsea till I die

We'll get more as they push forward trying to get an equaliser.  You mark my words....

A gem from Phil King during the break. "The Crawley manager will be pleased at the way they are playing, but disapointed to be losing".

No Shit.....

Nice to hear that Smiffy is playing well.

I agree.  Straight red will mean a 3 game ban as well.  Just when we were looking better in midfield as well.  

I see Michael Douglas got another mention...

sheenhan for ritchie

Has Ferry upset somebody or is he injured? Im suprised that Timlin gets in ahead of him.

Midfield general.

Last time he wasn't in the side, we had McGovern and then Timlin in the middle with Prutton. Now Ferry's fit, hopefully it won't have the same impact

The jewell in our nile crown.

Come on Swindon - you have to play better than this if you want to keep the lead

With this frozen pitch I'm surprised he wasn't Falling Down all the time...

Got a basic instinct when it comes to playing midfield

Steve Evans making friends.

Any other way and we'd be falling down.

Soooo as a team notorious for letting in late goals, our plan seems to be to try to defend for 45 minutes?  :headhurts:

The fat cunt

We've lost our D-Fens ive midfielder.

Someone has a mobile phone nearby according to phil king

No shit

I mean what are the odds of that?

Anyone know who Phil king played for??

Own goal off Rose fer fucks sake.

2-2.  OG.

Thats gonna be that then

We do not need Extra Time.

Ffs

FFS fucking cunts.

Rose puts us in the shit. Not intentionally obviously.

And now Austin departs. WTF?

And I'm worried that won't be the last one either! Sounds like Crawley are all over us...  :headhurts:

Donkey raping shit eaters  :badmood:

Marvellous

Austin off, Dossevi on. Erm.

Austin off for Dossevi... Crawley to win this.

Oh dear-dig fucking deep now Swindon

Where was Michael Douglas during this for fucks sake??

Gonna be War of the Roses now.

I'm surprised it hasn't happened before to be honest

Austin off?

WHAT.THE.FUCK?

TAKE AUSTIN OFF?

We have cleeeeeeeeeeeearly thrown in the towel?

*DISCLAIMER*

Unless he's injured.

I blame big Vince. If he had scored a first half hat-trick as expected we wouldn't be in this shit.

[url width=250 height=184]http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u226/TheTurnipKing/Random%201/ChewbaccaDefence.jpg[/url]

this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Can it be we've thrown the towel in?  FFS we should at least be able to retain the ball and pass better than this fucking lot but we haven't had a look in if the commentary is anything to go on.  As was mentioned before, how the fuck can we hope to defend for half an hour when we can't defend for half a minute when it gets to injury time...jeez!

Attn 2995

2955. Owch.

We've used all our subs you dumb shits

2995 people turned up and paid £20 to watch us get walked all over by Crawley. Idiots!

Bollocks 2955 get scrubbed up Mex...

Haven't we used 3 subs? Timlin, Sheehan and Dossevi? So why are they talking about bringing O'Brien on? Do you get 4 now in FA Cup or something?

We're fucked....  :cry: :cry:

No we have used all our subs it's just the commentary team are shit

 46% Crawley Town 54% Attempts on target
Swindon 3 Crawley Town 7 Attempts off target
Swindon 0 Crawley Town 5 Corners
Swindon 0 Crawley Town 9 Fouls
Swindon 9 Crawley Town 3

Either it's a cunning ploy or the lads have got some explaining to do at full time.

Fear not!  73% of all stats are made up...

Its not over yet lads-come on Swindon :doh:

Dossevi offside. Quelle surprise.

Has Vic mentioned that Phil used to play for Aston Villa, Sheffield Wednesday and Swindon yet?

Need to pump balls to Dossevi and get him to fall over a bit just outside the box - 'Mon a Rose freekick!

[url width=366 height=554]http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2008/07/1520.jpg[/url]

We could still force an upset.  Come on Swindon.  Make us proud.

Think he got it in at the start.

This is the first time I've experienced Vic as don't usually get Radio Swindon here...fuck me everthing people say about his commentary is true he's useless. He can't even count how many subs we've made and Phil King aint exactly inspiring either.

Sheehan misses a chance... our first in quite a while

Fucking Vic, thought that was in

FFS. They are getting closer and closer.

[url width=256 height=256]http://www.gamesprays.com/images/icons/28dl_icon1213.jpg[/url]

We should be losing about 6-2 by now by the sound of it.

Has Prutton touched it in the last half an hour?

Fucking hell come on Swindon

Same old shit.

Get a win against a good team and everyone is optimistic.  Then we play a team 2 fucking leagues below us and we are back to our normal shitness

I know we've had 10 men in the second half, but I can't remember the last time where we just have been battered like this, first-half too, by a non-league side as well.. when Gillingham beat us 5-0, we sounded like we had more of the game..

Phil king is a retard surely?

Crawley look like they have more players than us? (something like that anyway)

Good point, I forgot he was on..

Hahaha! Phil King is a big fucking knob.

Why the fuck doesn't Wilson get our fourth sub on?

Thank heavens for inconsiderately timed conference calls, feel sorry for the hardy 2995. This is what you get for allowing the away side to wear your home colours. It's kit karma

Orient saved themselves in the 89th minute, 2-2... but are down to 9 men for extra time!

There can't be many league sides out there with worse Cup records against non-league sides.  Fucking Crawley.  Let it not happen.  Please.

:nod:

They are the anti-Swindon

Black Tuesday has been a bad day for Swindon.

3 red cards and 5 other bookings at Orient.....

Our 3k looks good compared to orients 1300.

this is difficult to listen to

Crawley nearly get a third, save from Smith, Crawley still attacking.

We sound remarkably second-best tonight.

How is Smith not MOTM?  Sure JP scored but Smith sounds like he's made several great saves.

Sounds like Phil Smith should have got STFCs man of the match really!!  :hmmm:

Let's face it, we're boned. we have no answer to Crawley it seems  :cry:

Lost count of how many times I've heard "Great save Smith"

That's what I was thinking too
We could be losing by a lot of goals if it wasn't for him

Its not easy being a Swindon fan

Hahaha we're so shit! Ho hum. You reds!

3 more minutes. Heartbreak territory.

I can't take any more of this... c'mon Crawley put us out of our misery!

Argh they are so fucking dumb we've used all 3 subs.......sorry if I sound like a broken record but this is getting pathetic now

Still going on about another sub!

It's like listening to a long, hard, slow & painful death

"You wouldn't want to use up your last sub bringing a keeper on". No, especially not if you've already used your last sub

Come on - last minute

Testify!

At least Pericard isn't fucking ginger....

Oh dear god. Another 30.

I'm off to do the washing up to cheer myself up.

Big tune

Good point made by Phil there... it's never easy when you "go down to 11 men".

Down to 11 men

Thick cunt

Fuck this I'll check back in 30 mins or so.

Is the commentary always this bad then?

We lost on Penalties. Hope that saves you time.

Cheers batch that'll do for me

You sound confident that we can hold out for 30 mins!!  :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Your right tho, almost as tiresome as Phil King's continuous mispronounciation of Dossevi, we've had him for 6 months now....

This is a good day!

woah, I didn't realise we are playing at home in black to a team wearing red - what the fuck? Didn't they learn anything from the Wembley debacle?

I pity the poor, poor bastards who have to sit there in the cold for at least another 30 mins.  Let's hope they don't see penalties or we could see a few of the older crowd killed off.

If we had hope, it would hit the post.

Really?

Par for course. I thought Vic was getting better but tonight its right back to WTF is going on whenever either team attack.

I don't really care about the name mistakes/number of subs used. I suppose the latter is kind of crucial mind.

Going to sleep,  Come on town.

This is fucking painfull. And I'm not even listening!

This isn't exactly shocking: our team play a pretty technical style and as we all know teams which play a technical style suffer when the pitch is frozen and they're playing a team who play a more pragmatic style.

Now, maybe if we had undersoil heating we'd not have the problem of a frozen pitch, but the physical opposition isn't something that we can overcome without changing the playing staff.

Now, in my opinion we'd benefit from having striker who could hold the ball up.  Either a big lump, or someone like Mooney - who wasn't small, but did an excellent job holding the ball up and pestering opposition defenses.  Basically, a proper replacement for Paynter.

I'm off to iron a couple of shirts. When I return I fully expect to be losing.

I hope Phil King gets fucking frostbite.

Ha, ha sounds like Vic's had a word in the break. Made a point of saying we'd used all 3 subs

How can this side beat Huddersfield, Southampton and the Wednesday and yet be second bet to a non-league outfit?  Surely, confidence, fitness & hopefully skill should favour us?  God, I despair

4-2 now at Orient and 9 a side.....not that anyone cares mind

I know I shouldn't, but that last bit did make me laugh

You talking about that Dovessi blokey? From Goto?

That's the 'joys' of the FA Cup for ya!

Orient now 5-2 up.  Bastards.

I think the 'joy' is rather lost on me at the moment

You're right Phil, you could say they have 11 players.  Twat.

Fuck sake, those stats on the BBC website make shocking reading.

Likewise!

Presumably the same way we do to Dagenham, Rochdale, Yeovil etc

15 shots against just 4 for us... and we're the fucking home team!  Pathetic.  I blame the black kit.

It is good to see the Orient have paved the way for our humiliation to stand alone :)

Never knew Phil had played for Sheffield Wednesday, Aston Villa and Swindon Town... why wasn't I told about this earlier?

Apparently our best chance is via penalties. We're fucked then

Thanks for that, i didnt want to check. Shocking stats, truly embarrasing.

Its embarrassing, frankly. I await the explanation, win or lose, with interest.

I'm dreading Steve Evans interview after the match.  Even when his teams get outplayed he's always convinced that they were the better team, have more chances & should have won by miles. Maybe he'll have a seizure & die with all the excitement of it all - that's about all keeping me going

I particularly like the live text of the extra time, from which it seems that FUCK ALL happened for over 7 minutes.

I hope he starts giving it large about his spells at Exeter and Torquay or maybe perhaps his 5 games for West Brom?

Someone get down there and pull the fuses out on the floodlights.  Save our embarassment.

Why didn't anybody think of this before?! Anyone live close enough???

There are 2995 pretty close at hand.....

Remember when it happened pre-match against Brentford... That was a cold night too.

The ironic thing is it's actually a pretty decent defensive display by the sounds of it...

one of the great rearguard actions....wonder if it will continue for another shirt ironing absence?

Never had a humiliation so long drawn out

I wonder how many are actually still there, listening to this I'd have just walked off to get the early train I think.

Did we concede 2?

I think they're cunningly trying to kill Phil Smith.

I'm mightily glad I didn't go today.

Its ok he mentioned his spell at kidderminster

How are there still 15 minutes left? This is incredibly painful.

Phew.

I think the ice has got into my internet - it's gone slooooooooooooooooow - USA must have switched on. We are meant to be getting fibre optics next spring - not sure my old brain will work that fast ::)

Phil King says we didn't get over the half way line in that half, now I'm mega depressed..

Can't take anymore of this, i'm off to fucking top myself...

I'm expecting Albert Pierrepoint to arrive any minute.

Get to Pizza Hut

The sending off is a ready made excuse.

Can I join you - goodbye cruel world

What the fuck does he know.........

And the frozen pitch

Well Vic knew this would happen, whats the point in actually playing the games then....just let Vic decide.

May I be the first to blame Marcus Cassidy? If he'd just have done his job a little bit less well, we'd have no problems at all and our captain wouldn't be out for four games.

About now, I don't feel so bad that I couldn't afford to shell the £20 out to watch this!  :headhurts:

Like it, now thats a proper scapegoat

Can I say,even though I'm not there,"what a pointless substitution,Timlin for Pericard"?

Cassidy Out!

I keep forgetting that they charged £20. Ouch.

Is he a lazy fat useless lump of lard then?

Anthony Marshall has said that Crawley are playing a 2-1-4-3 formation

He isn't, but if he was, that would mean we wouldn't be in this mess. Triseros, if you read this, buy Marcus a burger or 10.

Is prutton still playing?

He's biding his time. You'll see....

Oh shut up Phil - "we're still in the competition"  - by the skin of our teeth

Not heard his name for the past hour!

At least we are almost equal on number of free kicks conceded now

So it's not that we've played bad, it's just Crawley have played well................ummm ok

Is that the Phil King that played for Aston Villa, Wednesday & Swindon?

Clearly we should boo him off the pitch at the end of half time after his forking expedition

The funny thing is, he only played a few league games for Villa but he scored in the penalty shoot-out and all of a sudden he was in Match magazine.

Ferry is better than Prutton to answer my own question.

New road?
[url width=200 height=164]http://www.lunacynet.com/league/images/s1_tubbs.jpg[/url]

3-0 defeat on penalties anyone?

There we go.

Yay.

Ah well

you're hoping

3-2 Crawley. That just about wraps up a fucking disaster of a game. I can only hope the Austin sub was tactical.

Fuck

And still we can't come back after going a goal down

There it is!

Bunch of cunts

FUCK OFF

we are fucking SHIT

Well thats me done then, we're shit and should be ashamed of ourselves.

Put out of our misery

Complete and utter clusterfuck. Goodnight!

They deserve it.

Let us sweep this ugly little moment under the rug.

So he knows about penalty shoot outs then?  Great!

Just got in. Oh fuck, we weren't that good then

 :gay:  :gay:  :gay:   :gay:  :gay:

OH FUCK OFF!

Mentally this team aren't up to it simple as that

Crawley.

Oh Jesus.

That's one embarrassment too far for me-Danny Wilson,your time is up I'm afraid.

Haaaaaaaaahahahaha! Same old Swindon - Put us through so much misery, then totally fuck it up at the end. Fun

FFS, went to get a cuppa and the same shit happens. Again.

Yes we are down to 10, but we have been dicked by Crawley and conceded 3 fucking goals. Our defence is fucking shit.

Wilson can fuck off, I  don't want to hear that cunts voice for several days.

Time to post things to cheer people up.

Slap Stuart Baggs anyone?

http://app.livetalkback.com/slap/

Time to go Danny :smugfu:

Spares us the embarrassment of showing the nation how shit we are at penalties.

I've got the football on the radio on in the kitchen, the missus has got last night's Corrie on in the lounge. It's Catastrophe Central round here

Less than 3000 fans

Captain sent off, 4 game ban

Austin went off, potentially injured or baffling sub

Out of the cup to Crawley 3-2 when our keeper was the best player on the pitch.

Unmitigated disaster, I'm fucking off back to the Cricket forum.

Doris Day, Melinda Messenger, XTC, Billie Piper our boys took one hell of a beating

Cue fat cunt gloating-I feel that is the worst thing about it

27 pages. How many will there be when I check this at work tomorrow. I reckon it might be approaching 40.

At least we got money from the first game being on telly. Every cloud and all that!

Glad I decided against spending £20 and freezing myself half to death.  Doesn't sound any less than we deserved according to the commentary.  Quite frankly would rather have gone out in the first leg.  Now we've got Douglas with a 3 match ban, Austin possibly injured, the humiliation of being beaten by a non league side at home and their fat cunt manager gloating!  

No doubt Wilson will blame the sending off, but we'll never know if that would have made a difference?

So yet again a good result one game is completely undone in the next.  Bullshit!

Seconded......so struggling in the league, out of all cups way before targets. It's not been the greatest of seasons has it.

Phil Smith is the only one that can hold his head up, the rest should be slogged with the festering underwear of 90 year old oxford fans

The biggest blow to me is losing Douglas for several matches

Don't be a dick

Time to back the manager

Sell Austin for 3 million and give £1.5 million to either Wilson or new manager to build new team

Complete. Utter. Joke. I've fucking had enough of this shit.

Season realistically (if not mathematically) over before Christmas?

I'm not calling for Wilson's head, but its been a disastrous season so far.

Hey don't rule out an 'exciting' relegation battle

Bye bye Danny.

So long chap.

It happened to Malpas, youre not immune from it

I'm one of those people who don't like to comment really if i have not been to the game but tonight i think i can honestly say that this is just fucking pathetic now.

It's just false hope after fucking false hope. We ned a centre half yet the only cunt we can get can't be assed to fucking turn up half the time.

An absolute clusterfuck compared with the highs of last season.

I think most people have been backing the manager up until now, but there's only so much everyone will take.  It wouldn't surprise me if the decision was made as soon as the final whistle blew already and he'll be gone by this time tomorrow.  A third round home tie against Derby would have been a nice little money earner which has just been blown.  I can't see Mr Fitton being too pleased about that!

Bastarding PA playing Always Look on the Bright Side of Life.

Cheek.

Oh crikey I'm in for some abuse....  We're not far off the playoffs, mathematically we're still in the hunt.  On the pitch, we're miles off.  We did just hammer 2nd place 2-1....   :D

I think that really is the issue, especially without Douglas (let alone Greer)

They'd better ask Danny some proper questions tonight, none of this "Poor you there's nothing you can do". We just got outplayed, no, trounced by a Conference side.

Best of fucking luck to the club selling those half-season tickets. Season's over.

I noticed that too! Were they taking the piss or what!?   :badmood:  glad I didn't shell out £20 for that display...

This season was supposed to have been pushing on.

Instead were out of all cups and in a relegation battle.

This is shite.

Sort it out FFS.

I know it went to extra time, but twice the number of pages than Saturday?  Miserable bastards!

No one went to the game tonight so were all posting on here instead.

Balderdash.

Well speaking personally, I didn't post on Saturday cos I wanted to keep out of the great Pericard controversy. As he got an assist for Charlie's goal tonight, presumably he was one of our bright spots? <ducks>

Yes and we also beat Southampton, Huddersfield and Colchester, but subsequently lost to D&G and Notts County!  As proved tonight, Saturday's result means absolutely nothing when you concede 3 against a non league team.  Pathetic.

Oldham away on Saturday, we'll get bugger all there either.  Then we slip back down near the relegation zone again.  

Austin will be gone in January and we'll be in a real mess then.  Pericard and Dossevi up front - can't wait!

Yes, it's doom and gloom time again folks  :(

and we are all miserable whinging whining horrible cunts

They'll hide behind the sending off.

The game was 33% longer, accounting for 33% more posts.

Bollox.

And we red unless absolutely necessary (and yes I know it's more than that, but it still fucks me off).

Goals                     Swindon 2 Crawley  3
Possession              Swindon 46% Crawley Town 54%
Attempts on target   Swindon 3 Crawley Town 10
Attempts off target  Swindon 2 Crawley Town 6
Corners                  Swindon 0 Crawley Town 10
Fouls                     Swindon 11 Crawley Town 10

Shame it's not about who committs the more fouls

What the fuck is all this "Danny has to go" shit?  He sent out a team that should have been capable of putting the chavvy Crawley shites out of our misery BUT they didn't perform.  As most of them did the business against Sheffield Wednesday you've got to ask yourself what the problem is?  It's no good getting yourself mentally up for competing with the best in League 1 when you don't stamp hard on the necks of fucky little outfits like Crawley, or Dagenham or Histon etc etc.  There is no ruthlessness in most of the team, they seem to have either a delusional belief they can defend for 45 minutes or they are too scared to go on the all out attack to get 2 goals ahead.  Players like Austin and Douglas are ruthless and do understand exactly what they are about but the rest just lose it far too often.

Don't underestimate the jinxing power of Kit Karma

Good post

Somebody has just gone and emailed the BBC slagging off Phil Smith. The same Phil Smith who just spent 120 minutes keeping us in the game despite being injured for a lot of it?!!

I missed that. Heard the one about having 9 men, but I think that one meant Smith was injured.

I believe it's already been mentioned earlier in the season that some of the people who txt in are not the brightest

Yes, that one. Anyone would think people are fucking morons. I wish they wouldn't read texts out before Wilson talks so I don't have to listen to that shit.

They started off by saying he cost us the game

Deep down, you've missed it, just admit it!

Right now, I'd rather listen to the window-lickers

Oh right, missed that bit. Tards.

On account of getting back late from mid Wales later than expected i missed tonight's match.
Didn't see that defeat coming tonight....after Saturday's good result as well.
Douglas need to take stock as well as the manager.....captain should be setting an example.
Tired and totally pissed off.

think Sky had Smith down as conceding the own goal and if I'd been relying on the Sky updates I'd certainly have blamed Smith.

I'd have blamed Prutton too but he wasn't playing

Didn't go, but what was all this about the Crawley keeper inciting the Town End?  Telling people to fuck off and go home!

The text lady just raised a smile by describing us as a "Jackal and Hyde" team.

No...that was Pericard ;D

I'm guessing the atmosphere tonight wasn't up to much?

Jackal and Hide, shurely?

Brilliant

Has there been a post match interview yet? Are they doing the "locked in" spin?

No, Hyde. And don't call me Shirley.

Sorry, this is just obligatory at the moment.

Haha

I bet it was just like wembley!

Still waiting. I'd have a lot to say if I was Wilson.

I think that's an entirely artificial distinction. 5 points off the play off's with 69 points available is our situation both "mathematically" and "realistically".

After 19 games of last season Southampton were 20th and 12 points from the play-off places, and their season didn't end until the last week.

Yes we can all be pissed off, but the idea that the season is over before the middle of December is just silly.

Bunch of useless cunts even when we had 11. Playing for penalties? Incredibly pissed off, don't think sacking Wilson is the problem, we have no leader on the pitch!

Slight change of note, but did anyone take a look at what happened in the Leyton game in the end??

55 mins in:  2-0 down and down to 10 men against Droylsden
90 mins in: 2-2, made it to extra time
120 mins:   8-2 win!

6 goals in extra time Wtf?! And the last 3 goals were all scored in 3 minutes!

I hope you are right. i just see no indicators that we are able to string a few results together and stop conceeding goals. Maybe Frampton/transfer window will provide the answer.

We're a long way off looking like last season's Southampton though aren't we? We're our own 10 pt deduction this season

Did you see how many other red cards there were Luke?

And yes agree, I am in the "Wilson In" camp.

And yes, 4 reds total. Must have been a hell of a game!

Maybe the players have locked Wilson in the dressing room?

Clueless. Can we try using the midfield next time?

For the record, I'm not writing off our season nor am I calling for Wilson's head...

But it's beginning to feel like the Malpas era on here all over again.

Hope you are hungry.

Just spoke to my dad who's just got home rather cold and exceedingly peed off.  He didn't reckon Douglas should have been sent off and that it was a good strong challenge.

He said that as soon as we went down to 10 men we played far too deep, which continually invited trouble.  Surely Wilson should have seen this and got them to sort it?  Smith apparently kept us in the match throughout the second half, so not sure why people are blaming him!

Austin signalled to the bench he needed to come off.  Aside from Pericard's flick on for the second goal, he was completely disinterested again.  All in all a shite nite all round!

Has Wilson been on yet, I can't be bothered to listen.

Just got back. Awful game, we were never in it and didn't deserve one goal let alone two - the half time scoreline completely flattered us. We looked jaded and a far cry from Saturday. Dunno what's up with the team but half of them couldn't be bothered.

Thought the red card was given due to the overreaction of the Crawley bench. After that we sat back even more and didn't even try to contend until about 80 minutes into normal time. We held on for dear life all the way from the kick off of the second half. Smith pulled off some great saves and Crawley could and should have been home and dry by then.

Smith - Complete howler let him down from a great performance (had a couple but got away with one) but made some brilliant stops and was struggling with an injury.
Morrison & Amankwaah - Pathetic.
Cuthbert - The best of the defenders but I don't think that says a lot. At least he got stuck in.
Rose - Not very good, but did set up one of the goals with a great cross. Didn't help that Sheehan was nowhere to be seen half the time.

McGovern - Clear man of the match. Ran his bollocks off for the entire game and had some nice touches. A shame the rest of the midfield was so diabolical and didn't support him.
Prutton & Timlin - Only got stuck in when it was too late. Stood off the opposition and were afraid to do anything. Crap.
Douglas - Slow, shit and uninspiring. You're supposed to be the captain for fuck sake.
Sheehan - Didn't even try to run. Clueless. Cunt.
Ritchie - Tried hard and ran himself into the ground early in second half. Didn't do anything of note, but he's not the sort of player who should be hustling the centre of the park AND the wing (which is what he was having to do).

Pericard - Won some headers, held up the ball and a nice flick on to Charlie but also a few clumsy touches. Wasn't helped by a poor midfield.
Austin - Class act, ran his heart out again and is really too good for this team.
Dossevi - Ran a lot, often not towards the direction of the ball. Couldn't win a header or hold up the ball but by that stage the midfield were so far away it wouldn't have mattered.

Crawley - Bunch of cheating shits. I really hope Evans gets his comeuppance one day.
Ref - cunt.

Unless we play great within the next couple of games then I'm not going to travel miles and spend money to watch more shit football in the freezing cold on boxing day as I was intending before I watched this game. 

just warming up after getting back home. That was shocking. crawley were better than us even in the first half. We just didnt look interested and our passing was awful. We were too negative from the off and bar JP Austin and Smith none of them looked like they gave a toss. I spent 16 pounds on that shite and im pissed off. Im sure 2800 odd other people are as well. It reminded me of the Malpas days.

Thank fuck there is still a foot of Snow in mid Wales,meant i didn't go...a friend has just rang me and is close to tears....he is numb but that is on account of the frostbite.

Good post cheers Si

Granted, I was just looking for an extreme example to make the point that with over half a season left to play, and the gap between the top of the table and the bottom smaller than I can remember for ages, the idea that the season's over is just a bit of a meaningless knee-jerk.

The interview..

Wilson is angry with goals we conceded. It was never going to be easy but they put us under pressure and we didn't deal with balls into our box. The first goal was difficult to take. We were fortunate to go 2-1 up. The sending off had a major effect on the game, but we should have held on for penalties instead of losing concentration.

There was a great incentive for winning today and the players didn't put in the hard work or at least we haven't handled the physical presence well. We didn't deserve to win the game but we should have been stronger. We didn't handle the way they played. We got overrun in midfield, we didn't clear balls into our box. We were nervous and didn't show any composure - the senior players should have calmed things down.

Douglas was in control of the challenge and got the ball and the referee's decision was influenced by the Crawley players and staff. We weren't sitting back, we were being stretched. Crawley was never going to be an easy tie. Maybe we should beat them but you can't take away how well they played. Smith made some good saves but he shouldn't have had to.

We've played well against some good teams this year and we've still got a lot to play for this year. We're sorry for this display and need to put it right. The players will have to stand up and take some hits on the chin. Hopefully Charlie will be ok for Saturday because we can't do without him. It seems like we're too reliant on him - he needs some assistance.



Hmmm

Wilson "Angry"
Chalk and cheese from Saturday.
They started well and put us under pressure

[Was 2-1 a surprise lead?]
They kept hoofing into out box and we didn't deal with it. Yes we were fortunate.
Sending off a major factor, but thought we'd weathered storm......

[Jackal and Hide?]
Been problem all season. From some individual we don't get the consistency. Not doing the leg work.

Not saying we deserved to win the game, but not dealing with certain situations (paraphrased).

Didn't handle the physical side. Midfield overran. Didn't clear ball from box. Didn't show composure from Saturday. ....Experienced players didn't calm situation down.

[Sending Off]
Made contact with ball, ref influenced by players and opposition management team. Fair tackle but follow through was what was penalised for.

JD is big miss, but he needs to show restraint in those situations. But difficult because he won the ball.

[Sitting back and waiting for pens?]
No. Working very hard with 10 men and were stretched. Crawley are a good side not a normal "non league" team. Will they be non league next season.

[Phil Smith made good saves]
he did but he had to as there wasn't anything in front of him...

[Caddis]
Flu

[Where next? Fans are angry. How to put it right? How to convince them]
Look back at how we can play. Can only  say sorry and put it right next game

[Austin]
Groin problem. Hope he's not out for Saturday as we can't do without him.

[Too reliant on him]
Maybe, always reliant on top scorer....need 2 or 3 of them to do well.

blah blah blah

You are right of course but if we can't indulge ourselves with a bit of meaningless knee-jerking on nights like this, what's the point?

I did say a couple of matches ago there is an air of Malpas about this season, there doesn't seem to be the team spirit of last season. Timlin argued with Wilson and Shirtflif a lot during the game for example.

I don't think a change of manager is the answer but something isn't right.

So he didn't inspire then...

Thanks for the write up.

Steve Evans is a whinging fat cunt.

Time !!!

If we'd won, this thread would have only been 19 pages long.

That's always been the way though hasn't it.

Same old, same old.  Is he reading from a script he's used before?


You don't say.  The rest of us have known that for the last 4 months! So what happens in January when  he leaves.  We'll be relegated without a doubt!

yawn yawn fucking yawn

Danny is playing on a fucking loop again

I think it's quite telling, the players aren't performing and the manager isn't thinking it will come good by itself. The players are really letting him and the fans down.

Why do you think that is.  Has he possibly lost the dressing room for whatever reason?  If he has, then he has to go, surely?

I don't think he's lost the entire dressing room. I think certain influential players though.

I don't think he's lost the dressing room or we'd have been stuffed by Sheffield Wednesday.  But the question you pose is really difficult to answer without being on the inside.  Does the fault lie with the manager because he's got bad strategy, tactics and motivation or is it the players who lack intelligence and belief.  Anyone on this board that's ever had to run a team in whatever sphere knows that there's a point where the team have to perform on their own and there's fuck all you can do as leader to mitigate that performance.  You can try and influence it but in the end they stand and fall on their merits.  If we got a new manager in, they would issue commands and still be faced with the same reaction Danny gets ie: big clubs they are up for it: little clubs they couldn't give a shit.

I agree with what you're saying, but we didn't experience this problem last season and the majority of personnel is the same.  What the bloody hell has changed so drastically?

Tongan power still exists as it was an extra time defeat.

Crawley are a bunch of tossers, got Douglas sent off with their reaction and changed the course of the game.  That said, we got pretty much what we deserved, sat far too deep for whatever reason and we should be capable of playing better than that with 10 men.

Yoyo performances are worrying.   Wilson not seeming to have much idea what to do about it is worrying.   I'm not in the Wilson out camp though

Can't we just rub this season out and start again?  

It's a rebuilding season ready for next season, need to keep telling myself that.

Wish I hadn't have stuck £50 on us pre-season to get promoted though!  :doh:

The only answer I can come up with is Greer, Paynter and Ward but we've been over that one loads of times.  I've watched Danny at the County Ground shout at the defense to hold a higher line and they remember for about 5 minutes then promptly carry on hoofing it as before and falling back too deep.  It doesn't feel right giving Morrison a slagging as he doesn't have the experience yet but there's no doubt most problems are going to stem from the middle of defense.  The only Swindon team I remember being truley stellar was Glenn Hoddle's 1993 and we weren't that great in defence but were brilliant going forward.   I know this doesn't help but the 2nd bottle of wine has just disappeared...

Oh dear, I hope you haven't got work in the morning?  :)

That's bollocks.

Good managers (in any walk of life) have a way of getting inside heads. Whether it's their personality, charisma, charm, professionalism, reputation or  whatever, they have a way about them that inspires and motivates. The very best managers recognise that people respond in different ways and spend time honing the right mix to suit the individual.

You can add salary incentives and bonuses as well, as they play a part in the jigsaw, but top managers inspire and motivate by naturally getting their employees to like / love them and to want to do their best for them.

Wilson did it last season but is struggling now for some reason. As they say, football is a results business. If results ain't right, something has to give. Whether thats a couple of signings to inject some bollocks back into the side in January, or a change in management, I'm sure Andrew Fitton will make the right decision.

FWIW, I don't think Wilson has lost the dressing room. Maybe one or two 'senior' players have become a tad complacent lately though? Maybe its about time he rattled a few fucking cages in the dressing room and reminded some of them who, exactly, is boss?

Tell you a player who has turned it around in the last two games though - McGovern. This makes me hope others can do the same and for a long period

Well. That was dreadful. Cup games always provide the lowest moments.

Good to see the reds go through tonight

Terrible performance. FWIW i agree with the sentiment that not all is well in the dressing room, i was talking to my old man about this tonight and we think that the team spirit we had last year has totally gone from the squad.... i know winning creates a good atmosphere but was losing characters like Greer, Paynter and even Easton who have been there and done it, who were all good pro's, have a big affect?

I just think the body language of some of the players says alot, Douglas didn't even acknowledge the fans after the sheff weds game and seems generally quite quiet and disillusioned to me, fall out from Greer leaving? I don't know maybe i'm clutching at straws here. I just feel that we have good enough players but not a good enough squad mentality.

I still think Danny is the right man, i just wish someone would put a rocket up the squads arse!  :beers:

I've noticed this a lot in the games where Morrison and Cuthbert play together in the centre.  Dropping as deep as we did tonight is only going to invite pressure and make the gap between defence and attack enormous.  Tonight, we should have been pushing up a lot higher...they had no real pace up front, but it made it easier that every time they advanced with the ball, we kept backing off and backing off.  Any time that we did get the ball and tried to play it out (aka a hoof) it just did not stick and came back, which is another difference to last season - the ball stuck up front and did not come back as quickly.

To a certain degree, the decisions made by the ref did not help matters - none of the players were really sure what would happen if they put in a reasonable challenge.

Hope Derby really stuff them in the next round - absolute cheating wankers to a man. Had to laugh at their CB; elbows Dossevi in the face in their first challenge together, then starts bitching when Dossevi catches him with a sly knee to the back later on...tosser.

All i have to say is Steve Evans and his assistand arre fat, moaning, whingy cunts.

The ref has their cocks so far down his throat to notice.

Absolutely infuriated with last night.

Debbie Does Dallas???

agreed. for a relatively small time club they had a lot of fella's trying to wind up our players by throwing the ball away etc.

the subs yesterday were mental. timlin and sheehan looked as if they had only played football at under 10 level then been put into a professional game.

crawley's game play was lump it and pick up the second ball, which their number 7 did most of the game as he just dropped off. what a fucking annoying game

£20 is mental, even before if i had anything else to do i would have not gone
black kit? stupid

it's one of those games that makes you fall out of love a bit more with football. you usually think of the "conference" teams as made up of postmen etc but those lads were just cunts, managed by a cunt management team. our chief cunt prutton was missing for nearly the entire match so we just didn't match them.

I know that we have to justify having a third kid, but pisses me off when we let other teams wear red at our place. Our colour is RED not fucking black. We let MK Mongs were red to "celebrate our league cup" although the black and teal had nothing to do with the league cup and last night let Crawley wear Red. I know its the least of our concerns but our colour is RED not fucking BLACK!!!

We're obviously contracted to play in the black strip in the cup.

oh dear, things arent going great are they, do you know how i know this?

i have only realised we were playing last night just now, thats not good is it?

im not aware that crawley have a away kit.

Oh good! At least that's out of the way now.

Well to be honest, it's the least of our problems isn't it.

Enough about the kit already!

We were crap from start to finish, at least when Pericard was on he was actually trying to hold the ball up so others could try and get position, when he went off at half time we had no idea what to do, and then with Charlie doing his groin left us with no one who could be relyed on to score, but we just didn't have an answer to Crawleys tactics of being bully's, going down at every opportunity and shooting from distance every chance they got - when we gave them the space time and time again.

We did not learn, the worrying thing is that we was clearly being overrun from the start of the 2nd half and we allowed them to do it nobody was trying to motivate the players to get back into it (ok, they should need to) even Wilson was quiet, if a team get's physical with us we can't handle it and always get beat - we need to be able to deal with physical teams not be a push over as we can only play 1 way and if we cna;t do that we don't know what to do.

Something needs to change or this season will be a season of struggle, we need a leader on the pitch to start with and a decent experienced centre half and another striker that knows where the net is, January transfer window cannot come soon enough, unless we leave it until Jan 31 as Wilson cant get his targets...again

Fitton's policy of buying younger players to nurture and then sell on at a premium is fine but we are crying out for a few decent experienced pro's to help the younger players, let's see some or we may end up with a repeat of Crawley quite a few more times yet this season.

  

I'm not going to go on about it like others have, i'll just say that the best team won.
They outplayed us, wanted it more than us, played it around the park well and created more chances.
If they could finish they could've scored a fucking hatfull.
Fair play to them.

I know alot of people say about this Fittons poilicy of buying youth doesn't help but if you look at it Wilson has actually bought in more experienced players than youngsters.

Wilson has been backed with funds but for some reason has not spent wisely.

lets hope there is a half decent striker on show tonight we can sign!

I dont see what the problem is. Its only a game.

We even had the lead at one point

Most excellent

If you're on about the Samsung thing, that's off.

they said it was will on last nite???

I think people are underestimating how much of a factor the Douglas sending off was. Yeah he wasn't playing great, and it was a clear red IMO, but I think if had 11 on the pitch for the whole of the 90 we would have comfortably seen out the game and the STFC world would seem a lot brighter.

I have'nt bothered to read back through yet.....so heres my viewpoint.

At 6pm i really didnt know if i could be bothered, with the cold and high ticket price, Non league, Evans a fat crooked cunt etc etc.  But in the end a shitty text of Mrs Flash meant i decided to go.

The best part of my evening was the Jumbo Hot dog outside the TE and their knob on the bench getting hit with the ball......and that was it.

They pissed all over us from the start.  Took a deserved lead.

We scored a bit against the run of play and then shockingly took the lead after they could of been out of sight.

At 11 v 11, it looked liked 12 v 10. At 10 v 11 it looked like 12 v 8.

Havent seen any replays but if Douglas went in with his foot raised then he off......

The ref was weak (he DID NOT lose us the game) and Crawley lapped it up. feigning injury and pushing,tripping, taking free kicks out of position and from rolling balls. What did we do? Match them? No! We rolled over and fucking died!!!
Yul Briner on the line was just as fucking weak and Evans loved it.
Ref only found his whistle in ET by then it was too late.

Austin got stuck in and thats probably why he was taken off but he wasnt the one we needed to show some steel......just where was the midfield? JPM and that was it!!!??

Our attitude was summed up by the dirty challenge on an already injured Smith on the 90....terrible late challenge and not one of our players ran over to kick off with the player, as Crawley had done all night. Just.....left it....and Wendy the ref did nothing...that really fucked me off.

Smith - Calamity howler again but did make a couple of great saves.....he was fucked at the end.

Prutton??????  What was the point of him getting changed tonight....fucking dog shit from start to finish. Im sorry Herthab old son but its now the 8th of December and NO CUNT should be raving about this wages thief. If Pericard goes the boo boys might open their eyes and see a real waste of space.   Ferry might as well ask for a transfer if Prutton is keeping him out of the side. Nearly as bad as Nalis but at least we worked out early that he was fucked and dropped him. This Twat just keeps getting picked!!????

JPM MOM for me and would of scored another if the block had not come in at the end.

Wilson fucked up the tactics big time (apart from taking Austin off, who looked like a red card waiting to happen) and then had no where to go when it all went wrong.

Dossevi ran around alot and tried but its never going to happen.

ONCE AGAIN (like Brighton) we played a side that can play good football (cos they did at times) and were physical.....we matched neither!!!!and lost.
Dont the players and Wilson ever learn.

With all the tea cups that dressing room should of looked like a Greek Taverna after that shit....i bet it never happened.

Forget 'surging up the table' and look over your shoulders because thats going to be our season.

If Austin goes in January we are royally fucked.

Time for some rethinks me thinks.

Train ticket for Oldham already purchased.....so im going......Things can only get better.

Fucked off Flash.....

Pretty sure he was talking about the Champions League matches, reckon there will be a quality goalscorer there for us to scout.

Didn't seem too much of a problem until 40 mins. Got back into it and Crawley didn't seem up to much. Playing 75 minutes with 10 men was always going to tough, especially when we were playing a formation of 8-1. For the 2 minutes that the midfield did pressure their man they panicked and we won back possession. But they did it once! Then spent the rest of the game inviting Crawley on to them.

Can't complain about the result as Smith as made 2 or 3 blinding saves and they've hit the bar more times than we've had shots.

For me - and I know I've been banging on about Vince lately - but taking him off in that situation was probably the biggest mistake. As I said elsewhere, we knew Charlie was injured, just take him off instead.

Their management is a joke and I can't see them getting away with that much next season should they manage to complete project promotion.

Oh well.

i heared there is a bloke worth watching tonight nasri i think his name is. i feel he is worth a scout please fitton! :D

He's too old.

Now we have the game out of our system a couple of things

It looked like we were the non league team in our poncey black kit. Kept thinking we were doing ok then realised we were not wearing red.

Austin did well, Smith made a couple of good saves. First half hardly saw us down their end apart from the goal.

Douglas was a definite sending off, why people were chanting “you don’t know what your doing” ill never know. Dougie wasn’t going to change the game. We could have had 15 players on the pitch, we had that “big club” mentality and thought all we had to do was show up and we would win.

Timlin did ok in bits, JPM was good, Prutton was largely absent as usual, Would have played Ferry in the middle, he plays with a bit of passion, Why did we buy him if we wont play him???

None of our players seemed to want to go forward, we would get the ball and lose it right away because no one moved forward and we had no options, we had acres of space on the right and everyone just stood there.

Good to hear Phil Smith being a bit vocal for once, always criticised him for this but clearly he is trying to rally the troops at the back.

Overall we didn’t seem to give a shit, players need a good kick up the ass. We lack leadership on the pitch, Cuthbert is too quiet. We miss that calm older head to get the players together and get it sorted. Maybe we need a new defensive coach to come in??

After Histon and Crawley I have decided not to go to another Cup game where Town are playing a non league side, FUCK THAT!!!

I couldn't figure out why Prutton was dropping so deep all the time. For someone that usually gets in peoples faces he was very timid. Almost seemed like they were thinking "well, it's only Derby" Depending on how results go in the league over the next month, maybe it's better we are out the cups!

Seasons a write off.

Fitton needs to Back or Sack Wilson in preparation for next season.

Personally I think backing him is by far the better option.

Agree with this. Seems so much more comfortable on the RHS of a 4-4-2. Playing at the top of a diamond or in a midfield 3 makes him totally ineffective for whatever reason.

As for the bigger picture...

Having had time to calm down having been fucking furious last night I think I'm more perplexed than anything this morning.

I'm obviously disappointed with how the season's going so far, but there have been a number of exceptional performances in amongst the shite.

It has been done to death on here about players that departed over the summer and the effect that has had on the side, but it boggles the mind that a team largely the same as the one that was almost unstoppable for long stretches last season could be so inconsistent this. I don't know where the problems lie, but surely the talent is there for us to be doing better than we are.

Were we just lucky in some of our results last season? Have teams 'worked us out'? Not sure, but I just know I feel bloody miserable about the way things are going just now. Still, long way to go and I hold out hope that we can still turn things round by the end of the season. Just hope the attendance doesn't suffer too much as that isn't going to help the prospect of any transfer/wage funds.

Sorry for rambling on a bit, just needed to get it of my chest.

Things will improve in April.....end of season.

I'm going to get a back or sack wax based on the outcome.

Come on back! (so to speak)

If the club want to sell out and play in the away strip at the CG next season then they can shove it. I wont be paying for any home FA Cup games.

***Hypothetical alert***

We somehow manage to get to the third round of the FA Cup next season and we play Manchester United at the County Ground. Both clubs agree that Swindon will play in Black and Man U in Red prior to the match.

So this would stop you going?

For me I don't care if we play in bin liners or skins, it makes no difference, I go to support the team, red, white or black.

Why can't we have a differently sponsored, limited edition, red, cup only kit?

Because then the complain would be: ripping off the fans, what's the point?? Why not just use our normal red shirt?

Which tbf, are probably legitimate complaints atm...

Yep.

When the club looked like it might fold I always said if we had to set up a new club I would support it with everything I had if 1) it played in or near the centre of Swindon and 2) We played in Red.

Not interested in anything else. Not interested in South Marston Supermarine. If the club moved to a motorway junction that would be the end of me and STFC as well.

To be honest I was undecided about going last night, but when I found out we were playing in black that made my mind up. If the club wants to sell out and mess around with the identity of the club then they shouldnt be suprised if it has an impact on the loyalty of fans.

Agree 100%

But the board have already backed DW in the summer, we spent far more money that we have for a long time and we brought in proven players on big wages. Unfortunately DW miss-spent the last majority of what he was given, and seems unable to get the best out of the current bunch.

I am fed up with Wilsons negative, 'sit back' tactics when we take the lead, and we used them last night when we were fucking drawing. Only one side wanted to win that and Crawley deserved to win by more, they made us look like a conference side.

I knew we were in for a long night when he took off our most creative midfielder for a defender. What was he thinking?

Derby would have been at a guess, a gate of around 9000. We have had all of the bigger teams at the County Ground already this season - I don't know where the next big gate is coming from, and the Derby match would no doubt have been a decent earner. I can't see us getting another crowd of over 8500 again this season. The board are lucky that we have a high number of season ticket holders.

What Spencer said above: back Wilson with some money in January, or sack him.

It's a bit off topic, but it's not by luck that we have good season ticket numbers.

Agreed, season ticket numbers and attendances having been rising slowly but steadily over a number of years in fact!

Also, 73% of facts are made up on the spot  :hmmm:

Wilson was well backed by the board in the summer, He could have bought an experienced centre back but chose to buy Caddis and Ferry instead, He never replaced the players he should have and it's all down to him, He should be sacked in my opinion as he has no-one to blame but himself, Why back him again in January? He has already made big mistakes, I'd rather we gave someone else money to spend.

Wilson was well backed by the board in the summer - proof? All I saw was ess than 400k or whatever it was for multiple players?

He could have bought an experienced centre back but chose to buy Caddis and Ferry instead - Wilson went on record at the time to say they were looking for an experienced centre back, but were struggling to find one. Totally contradictory to what you have said here. You have no proof to suggest that Danny found a "Gordon Greer" but decided not to sign him...

Why back him again in January? - Oh where do I start on this one...
1) Saved us from relegation in 08/09, guided us to Wembley in 09/10
2) January transfer window opens in just over 3 weeks and closes in about 7 weeks. Does that honestly seem like a descent timescale for the board to appoint a new manager, and for that manager to deal in the transfer market effectively? It took 6 weeks alone last time for the board to find our current manager
3) Even if we did get a new manager, we're not relegation fodder, but can't see a new manager guiding us to Wembley without new blood at the moment, so what good would bringing someone in at this time do? Would it not be more prudent to wait till after the Jan window, confirm nothing happened and then stick budgie in charge temporarily while you look for someone, and regroup for next year?
4) Fuck it, i don't care any more... sack everyone!  :smugfu:

On a more amusing note, my boss put money on Crawley to win last night and was disappointed today as he thought we had drawn 2-2...I  regrettably pointed out that we had in fact, managed to lose so excitedly he dashed off to check his Betfair (he got about 27-1 for Crawley to win when they were 2-1 down).  According to the betting terms, the bet is only valid for injury time and not extra time and penalties. Sucker!

I dont think Caddis or Ferry are mistakes. The problem is we didnt buy players in the areas we needed them most.

Yes, a centre back would have been better, but if we were ever going to make Morrison into a Football League player, this was the season he had to step up.

I think they sit down and discuss every signing and make sure its part of the philosophy of the club. The only real clanger weve had is Alan O'Brien.

and Rose - how the fuck was he going to shore up the defence. Great free kicks, good delivery at times and a good throw in but defensively absolutely bollox.

He's not great, inconsistant and too soft. But he has managed to keep Sheehan out of the team. How I dont really know, because Sheehan is by far the better player. But not a total failure.

Wouldn't mind seeing Rose on the left wing. I agree he always looks shaky defensively, but good lord he can cross a ball and take set pieces- I don't quite understand why he's the one at the back when Sheehan has been on the pitch with him.

I like the bloke, but surely Vincent goes down as a 'clanger'?

I'm not sure where Sheehan was playing last night, the amount of space they had on the right hand side was very alarming, and was how the winning goal came around. Would like to see Rose left midfield but Ritchie can't really be dropped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s

I don't think Sheehan knew where he was playing last night either. He was fucking awful when he came on and actually made Rose look 10 times better than him. He just didn't look interested at all.

Just seen the highlights on Points West. Yeah Douglas went in 2 footed and didn't get much of the ball. Think I can see the refs point of view on that one sadly. Didn't get as much of the ball as I thought he did.

Just saw the Douglas challenge....shocking....Wilson shouldn't be defending that kind of stuff.
And the Booboo by Smith for the equaliser......may have had a good game...but shocking too.

Top stuff Leefer, you've restored my faith in the TEF....presumably the shitehole Tiny Clanger spotted on Earth was Crawley?

Tiny Clanger....sounds like a rap artist with a two inch dick.....lets get down with Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny.

Sorry to resurrect this, but has anyone else had a problem playing the highlights on STFC player?

Why would you want to? In fact, there's highlights?

Not on player but it doesn't work on the Iphone app either.

You could be right ... all the other vids play, just this one stuffed.

After a long exchange of emails with Customer Support I got this:


Sorry for all the inconvenience caused to you but all FA Cup games are only on view up until the midnight on Friday of that week.  This is down to hold back rights.

So that is why you cannot view this game.

Best regards,
Web support


Saved me from self harming I suppose.

Had a client Chtistmas lunch today with suppliers, one of whom was a Spurs fan...called Steve.

Steve: OK [Ardiles]?  How are you getting on?  Wasn't going to mention Crawley but...

Ardiles: You just have.

Bastard.  I have approx 15 years' worth of acquaintances for whom I am the 'Swindon fan'.  They share in our successes, in a completely patronising fashion.  And when we fail...the bastards.  Do they milk it.

Suffice to say that Steve is now no longer focused on his side's Champion's League exploits...and now fully appreciates that we took 4 points from them in 1993-94.

Class acts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12462959

He got arrested for doing that!?!?!? Bit harsh!

i wish you fuckers wouldnt keep bumping this thread back to the main menu

As if the memory of that classless cunt of a manager of theirs doing his silly ricky gervais dance on the touchline isnt enough

Whatever happened to free speech? As a society are we so rediculously soft that we let things like this get to us?

What did he say? If he's mocked the munich air crash, being arrested is being let off lightly. Sick

This is definitely not the sort of thing that the police should be arresting people for.

Would I deserve to be arrested if I made a hilarious youtube video of me making brum brum noices whilst turning an imaginary steering wheel with Candle in the wind playing in the background?

People make jokes about things like that all the time. If people started getting arrested for similar things there'd be no one left unarrested.

Do it and find out.

:D

I actually non-intentionally mis-typed Do as Di when I typed that originally.

Now that's irony.

Hope the stupid fuck gets a kick in from a hundred Mancunians.......if your going to make a song up about the opposition theres no problem untill you bring disasters or death into it  ...............how would we react if Oxford fans made a song up about Jimmy Davis.......enough said.


Its OK untill it happens to someone who as Town fans we remember with pride....then the people on here may understand how the police may view this as incitement..............not as a joke.

Yeah but it happened about 50 years ago Leefer. People make jokes about almost everything nowadays and there is nothing too shocking anymore. If it had've happened last week then yeah lock him up because that would be highly insensitive, but it was almost 50 years ago so it shouldn't be that shcoking.

Airplane gestures, from someone in Crawley near Gatwick, what a fucking waste of everyone's time.

Yup, that would be fully merited. But it's a complete waste of police time. I only posted the link initially as a "What a twat" kind of thing and he deserves everything he gets, but surely the coppers have got better things to do?

This.

The guy's clearly a tool for doing it, but I don't see how it's a police matter?

Fair point but I was brought up in the sixties and it was always a very big deal as was the Ibrox disaster in the seventies.  Leeds fans have never stopped going on about Munich in their songs.  Mind if it gees Man U into sticking 10 past Crawley and obliges Man U fans to beat the shit out of the Crawley lot then so much the better  :)

Well its shocking to the people who it affected,if you dont like Man U there are plenty of ways of winding the opposition up.....its sick and there are plenty of ways to wind up opposition fans without resorting to this
Whos to say there arn't relatives in the crowd of those who died.....dont try and make a case for this twat.
As i said maybe people would feel different if away fans came here singing about Jimmy Davis or something similar.

Reeves4 england.....40,000 Man U fans may see it different to you......thats where the police decide to stamp it out now rather than have a bad feeling...............just for once i feel its the right decision.

If it's a problem pull the video and get the bloke to apologise. Arresting him is an absolute joke.

Mounumental dickhead but people should be able to say whatever they damm well like

So if someone taunts Forest/Liverpool about Hillsborough on Youtube the police shouldn't investigate or arrest them........get the bloke to apologise?.......what next sorry ma i knicked your purse...........really sorry about that darling.

Fact is EVERYONE knows how the Man Utd fans are provoked about Munich.....this could/will lead to trouble.....the police know it so they are nipping it in the bud now................good on them.

You say that leefer, but isnt there a martin aldridge song that swindon "fans"' sing?

It is a disgusting thing to say/do, but i'd be more worried were we living in a society where we could be pounced upon by the police for our utterances. This kind of behaviour is best stamped out by people shunning the person involved and maybe then they'd get the message and reform their outlook on life, but police involvement, certainly not.

Yep.....not me though.

Everyone to there own.................just dont whinge when the police come knocking thats all i am saying.
If you are going to go public on such events as this dick did...........expect a knock on the door.

Not saying anymore....not saying i am right...just saying what i feel.

Thats fair enough mate

:)

We live in a free country....apart from Slander, Libel, illegal incitement, anything the old bill want etc etc

Slander and libel are civil cases aren't they so the old bill wouldn't get involved anyway?

Incitement and harrasement are rightly criminal offences, causing offence isn't.

Well the publicity generated is only going to fuel whatever trouble there will be more. I watched the video, if the website I viewed it on hadn't pointed out who was doing the actions I wouldn't have seen them, it's hardly a one man in-your-face explicit crusade to upset Man Utd fans.

Let's be honest, how many of us have cracked jokes about dead celebrities and the such? Next time you send that text off to your mate or make a comment in the pub you better watch out who's listening.

BUT...you are not free to do and or say what you want...FACT

No.....pissing on a police car and calling plod a cunt will prove this :D

Nope.

In my mind there's a difference between freedom of speech and freedom from responsibility for what you say.

Say for example if a newspaper knowingly printed loads of untrue accusations about someone (say claiming they were a rapist or something), shouldn't the person be able to hold them responsible for loss of earnings if it meant that they could no longer get a job?

Or if I was in a pub and started telling the landlord he was a horrible cunt shouldn't he have the right to deny me service?

On the other hand if the police started arresting you for criticising the state then that's obviously something completely different.

On the agenda for future governments will be a new police....a proper internet police who will have the power to arrest and warn people of their conduct online....its only a matter of when...not if.

Wikileaks and to a degree Facebook along with other nutter groups will see to this.

Wikileaks is more of a freedom of information issue, which is another thing. In my head anyway.

The bloke is a cunt for mocking the dead / taunting MU fans. Bad taste, no respect etc, but getting arrested for making a plane gesture in a video? How's anyone going to prove that he did it to cause alarm or distress, which is what they'll need to do to get a conviction?

Too many easily offended wankers nowadays. I heard a bloke on the radio today claiming that he's offended by the kids TV character Rastamouse. Reckons the program makers are likening him to a Rastafarian Mouse and that people mock him in the street because of it..... Wanker! :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Maybe he's made of grey wool, has an enormous fucking nose and a massive tail? In which case, I'm not surprised he gets mocked in the street but suspect the TV programme is the least of his worries

Anyone remember Man United fans reacted with fury when Fjortoft did the airplane in front of them in the 2-2 draw in 1994?

Who pays for the police to go round nicking people who make airplane gestures? We do.

Yup.

ignorant fools!

Can this thread be renamed?

I keep seeing:  Swindon Town V Crawley Official Matchday Thread, and it's bringing back shit memories.

I seem to remember the 1000+ "red cards" (A4 paper) being held aloft during that game because of their poor disciplinary record running up to that game.  :D

Are those who work in the police force exempt from paying taxes then, or are you just being a bit silly again?

I think you are. It's not like the police pay for their own salaries in entirety is it?

The blokes been charged now, and off to court he goes

got a suspended jail sentence. Joke.

Just goes to show that justice in this country is not even handed, its a question of who the media wants punished.

If i read it correctly then not only did he do the aeroplane simulation but also held up his fingers to spell out 1958. The first one is stupid the second is completely fucking dumb. Whereas I've normally got a bit of sympathy for fans, in this case the guy wanted to bring attention to himself and did so. I don't think he can complain too much and he's made himself a target for a few loons.

http://www.thisisgrimsby.co.uk/news/Crawley-boss-Evans-making-Blundell-Park-return/article-3130536-detail/article.html

Second paragraph.

Of the highest order!!!

The bloke's an absolute knob but this never merited police attention much less wasting how many hours/000s of pounds in the courts system. And a suspended jail sentence for being slightly less funny but significantly less offensive than Frankie Boyle? Ridiculous

agree completely.
it was a stupid offensive act but fucking hell he aint actually hurt anybody.
those nut job muslims spout whatever hatred they like and get away with it.
the lad in question here was just stupid.

Mohammed Haque, 30, of Bethnal Green, was cleared of the charge. Both men had been accused of burning three oversized poppies on 11 November in Kensington. About 20 men at the demonstration joined in with shouts of: "Burn, burn, British soldiers, British soldiers, burn in hell." The crowd continued: "British soldiers - murderers, British soldiers - rapists, British soldiers - terrorists."

£65.

So if someone goes on Youtube tonight and takes the piss out of the Hillsborough disaster....you know mimick a bit of suffocating etc for the Liverpool fans to chuckle over we should just leave it?

Can guarantee there would be uproar in Liverpool.......love em or hate em the Manks had every reason to see this twat be investigated.

Thats not to say i dont agree with your comparisons on the events today....shocking.

Personally i would put them in some stocks and let the public laugh at them.....and that would include many a muslim who will be insulted by there behaviour.

Its a question of distinguishing stupidity and genuine malice.

One mans stupidity is another mans malice.

The penalties should have been the other way round. £50 for the stupid Crawley fan. 2 years suspended sentence for the people who hate our country.

Spot on. Well, the stupid Crawley fan should never have gone to court, but given that he did, 50 quid would be about right. Whereas the poppy-burning scrotes a suspended sentence would be far more appropriate, especially given the likelihood that they will do it again. Suspended sentence might make them think (if anything can)