Thetownend.com

Front page of the adver today has pictures of the proposed ground, and the council has asked the club to think again, ie it ain't happening.  Couldn't see anymore as I walked past the news stand, but anyone who can shed light on it go ahead.

did you really think it was gonna happen? not with that Swindon council!

Its about time we as fans protested against the wankers of the council!. :evil:

No, I never expected it to happen, the council legally can't give us things on the cheap, and we've got no money.  So unless a rich man or a joint venture can be found its scuppered from day 1.  That said to have it confirmed is still bad news.

its about time we as residents of swindon protested against the wankers of the council ..

The council dont do fuck all.

And I bet they put my fuckin council tax up!  :x  :evil:

It was rather inevitable.

has anyone got a link to the story? what have they given as the reason for it not being built? i cant get the adver as i'm in newbury at the moment.

fuckin council wankers  :evil:

oi le god you have a world cup game

i know i've just put the pics up.

just need you to turn it into a poll now.

cheers

It won't be on the adver site for a while yet, I just saw it all over the front pages as I walked through the station.

Don't get carried away with the Adver hype - all this is is that the club's current proposals are unrealistic and won't work. It doesn't mean that the whole idea of a redevelopment is unworkable, just that they need to go back to the drawing board and come up with some more sensible proposals (and financial figures).

There's a summary and a re-post of the article on the Trust forum at:

http://www.truststfc.co.uk/forum/index.php?s=22928f2144ca55aa74470a7a6e802211&act=ST&f=14&t=3856&st=45&#entry27662

Having just read the article and seen the plans put forward I must say its hardly suprising that theses plans have been rejected.The proposed green space that was supposed to be left isnt there,its taken up with starter homes.

The legal issues of giving the club the land around the CG to build houses on to fund 1/2 the stadium  are a major concern.

My biggest worry is that with all the councillers rejecting the proposal Mark Devlins comment is 'we still feel this proposal will go ahead' Talk about sticking your head in the sand.

Im afraid  the chances of the club dieing  or relocating are higher than ever getting a new ground in this borough.

Thanks for adding some meat on the bones Paul, I have to say the impression i saw looked better than I expected, with a bowl stadium, it doesn't look like they planned to keep any of the South stand to be honest.  Hopefully thay can come up with something similar with a better financial plan in the future.

fair enough, the council are hardly going to give away £25million worth of land for free.

its a bit short sighted of the club to expect that really.

That has made me angry now  :x  What is wrong with our damn council! They can spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands pounds on traffic lights (that don't work ie. Old Town) but aren't willing to help the football club of the town. Can they not see that the town will benefit as a whole.

Lets set Mex on them.  :)

I think the lands only worth that with house built on it.

which is what the council will do after we go bankrupt & the stadium is knocked down.

And both of the above points were well-known to the club - we told last October they had to leave the open space next to the athletics track (and Bob Holt publicly committed to do so at the Trust forum in January) and we've been telling them since the process started that there was no way they would get away with a proposal that involved a large-scale asset transfer. This isn't a "told you so", just a reflection of incredulity at the inability of Mikey D to actually take any advice whatsoever.

Not the point cuervo - as I understand it, they are not legally allowed to give the land away or even sell it for less than it's developed value. Otherwise, any shonky developer could just go to the council and ask for some undeveloped land which is worthless without planning permission, get the planning permission and suddenly have an asset worth millions. Which is what used to happen - developers made a killing for doing nothing, while council taxpayers saw valuable assets sold off for buttons.

Does anyone know and if so can explain how other "community" stadiums have been funded? and what the local council's role was?

Isnt teh area of the county ground only allowed for sports tho? I thought there was a clause in the ownership that it must stay that way?

I hope that when we fold, they have to stick by the covenant.  A nice sized bit of land with a shitty athletics track and a disused County Ground will be everso useful...

Good point about other community facilities, I guess whatever happens the council still has to own the site and garner the revenue, which in this case can't happen as it's needed to fund the development.  Often clubs have relocated to less valuable land and freed up valuable central sites for other uses, whereas we are trying to redevlop on a valuable central site.

How is it possibly the fault of the Council?? STFC asking to be given land for free and then build houses making one lucky deveoper very rich.

Undoubtedly it was SBC's fault for the Tipstad but blaming the council for the club's complete lack of commercial common sense is unbelievable.  :-))(

Just for the record, I did not say ' I think it will go ahead anyway'. My quote was along the lines of we still believe it is a workable plan, but until we understand fully the thoughts of the council  (and we have not received anything from them officially yet) we cannot respond properly. Lots of politics in play here as you can imagine, and it is not helpful to say that people have simply not listened to what they have been advised. These proposals are based on some direction we have been given. If, at the end of the day the council do not really want the club to stay in the borough,  which is what we would prefer to do, then we will need to consider the other opportunity presented to the club which would see us move out of the borough (but not towards Newbury!) We sincerely hope the all-party working group is not a smokescreen and will actually work toward finding a way for the redevelopment to happen.

As a badlly thought out idea - Could the council not just retain ownership of the land, but still redevelop and reap the profits? STFC would still not own the stadium but could run the facilities on behalf of the council and share the profits?

If we are to move out of the borough, i'd like to know how much exactly. A few miles out wouldn't be that bad but any further and it's basically a new club.

So there is a back up plan?

Im sure you wont tell but where is this opportunity presenting itself?

If you cant be exact a compass point will do :D

Fair play to him for coming on here and saying! Devlin your our only hope, hopefully you can sort out this club

I know it's not what you want to hear but I can't say too much about the other site. I would reiterate however that we do not wish to move out of the borough. Incidentally in the submitted proposal the council will still own the stadium, and we will still be rentpayers, but at least in a stadium that will help us to generate the extra revenue to help us not only survive but maybe even prosper. I hope this little bit of information helps, but I don't want to prejudice our case by getting involved in too much public debate prior to receiving the thoughts of the council.

Cheers Mark, fingers crossed.

The answer I expected but it was worth a try.

Feel free to Pm the real answer I wont tell anyone honest :D

BTW, a new regional stadium for the South West situated in Swindon is in the Draft Regional Spatial Strategy out to 2026. From what is said above, this surely must be a route worth pursuing. There would have to be regional government funding available to achieve this, probably through the South West Regional Development Agency. In the case of a council -  i.e. publicly owned - facility, perhaps this could meet the funding gap? It has to be worth an email, Mr D?

[email protected]

Lets hope that SBC see the light, pull their fingers out and start supporting the club! Keep up the good work Mark.

If the other site is talked about, all it will do is give the Nimby's more time to organise protests etc. and jeopodise the club's chances.
These things are best done in the closed circles until they become a reality, then bring in the fans and the rest of the world.
Until then work away behind closed doors....

swindon town fc,should stay in swindon.
there is no excuse for having to move out of town

Cheers Mark D. You must have a sore forehead talking to the council, all that banging it against a brick wall.

When the time comes, can you let us out of towners know who to lobby and how to approach it. I guess our voices will be muted by the fact we don't live in the borough.



I agree and I expect that to be a very last result - i.e. if we don't do it then we go under. I don't actually know where the borough boundaries are and so how close to Swindon the club could still be.

In any case, until the county ground development is completely dead it is a waste of time talking about what ifs.

I know the council arent interested at all but i dont want us to do a Wimbledon/Franchise style situation.

Ive always thought a Joint intiative with Bath Rugby club would be a good idea ... with a new stadium somewhere between here and Bath .. where exactly im not sure

But then that would either be too far over here for Bath, or else would cease to be Swindon Town Football Club. For Christ's sake, Bath are already trying to steal our greenbelt for their Uni, now you want to give them our football club as well? [/b]

So there is another site identified then? How far are these plans advanced? As in have the club spoken to developers about this other site? The landowner? The planning authority?

Correct me if I am wrong people, but the answer must be somewhere near Chippenham!

Can't go East because we encroach Reading's catchment (League rules have changed to stop clubs moving to new towns, especially looking at impact on other established teams).

South would be a development nightmare with no real large scale stuff likely until you get to Salisbury if you are lucky.

North - Oxford and again no big Towns to attach it to with the infrastructure to support a large development.

Chippenham district - still Wiltshire.  Not too close to Bristol, ripe for a bit of further development, being a mini Swindon if you like.  It does also move us closer to Bath RFC who are desperate for somewhere else due to their own development restrictions (not even allowed a permenant stand on one side).

Wootton Bassett is the answer - demolish it and build a mega-stadium in its place!

if we ended up over chippenham way i could see it being the end of stfc and the beginning of a wilts.county team.

In my view even Chippenham is too far.

Just outside Wroughton on the Avebury road.  Old RAF site, or farm land opposite.  Just inside the Swindon Borough limits.  It'd be bloody cold up on the hill during winter but a great view of the town during night matches.

Id be happy to call our team Bath/Swindon if it meant the club continued instead of folding .. we have to be realistic

WTF?????

Dunno about you, but I currently support a team called Swindon Town, not "Greater Wiltshire Franchise" FC. No thanks. There is still scope to do a decent redevelopment of the CG - just the plans need to be properly thought out, and some lessons learnt from the Shaw Tip fiasco and this latest escapade.

I was thinking the same. But how many Nimbys would say it was a blotch on the landscape?! I personally think that the m4 junc 16 is the best.

Not saying that I'd like to go there, was suggesting it was a potential place they might be looking at.

I Like Piemonte's idea, and have added some meat on the Trust and thisis sites.  If the club are not the owner of the ground then the argument about giving them land doesn't wash - the Council can be the developer.

I was raised in Calne and started watching SWINDON Town.  I support SWINDON.  End of.  A transition into a "Wiltshire County" club would destroy the heart of the club.

Cheers RobertT, I've always known I'm that a genuis :wink:

any linkage to your expanded ideas?

*puts fingers in his ears*

lalala, i'm not listening!

Hull’s KC stadium is the best example of a community stadium development.  

I’m pretty familiar with it as I actually worked for Kingston Communications up in Hull (stadium sponsors) at the time it reached completion.

Hull City council invested approx £42 million and could do so as they not only retained full ownership of the site but integrated a large amount of community facilities for the residents of Hull within the project.  This allowed the cost to be entirely justified as it was not going to benefit solely the football club, a private limited company.

The land the KC is built upon is pretty low grade/low value but by the same rights the CG site is governed by the sporting covenant, which dictates what it can/can’t be used for.

As far as I can see the proposed development is pretty similar except that private housing on the site is used to essentially fund the building of the stadium.  Similar to the KC I’d then expect the stadium to be run by a management company but ownership is still essentially retained by the council.  

At the end of the day we then have all the advantages of a shiny new stadium that should have fewer overheads to operate and additional facilities providing income through different sources.

It's pretty much the only way we can go without a serious amount of cash or ownership of a site to trade off.

Bit unrelated but I’ve read mention that the site includes first time buyers properties, can anyone confirm?  If this is the case then it seriously strengthens our hand when it comes to justifying the project.  There’s a specific housing initiative that I can’t name off the top of my head specific to Swindon plus the Government’s first time buyers scheme.  Having seen similar developments in other areas take advantage of using first time buyers to get a site the green light it is encouraging.  Plus again to a degree it justifies the building of commercial property on council land as it’s in the ‘communities’ interest.

Not seen the article or plans so wouldn’t want to comment but the infrastructure certainly sounds like it’s in place.

No fucking chance! :evil:

This is all there is at the mo, Dazzza - without seeing the original brochure:

"THE proposal includes redeveloping the football stadium, the cricket ground and the athletic track alongside the construction of a substantial number of starter homes at no cost to the council.

The new housing will comprise a combination of one and two bedroom apartments and two and three bedroom townhouses aimed at the first time buyer market."

Agreed, Bath fucking Swindon!  :fag:

A bit more detail on the housing here dazzza, doesn't really expand too much on TalkTalk's posting mind


http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/swindon/news/SWINDON_NEWS0.html

Many thanks TalkTalk.

No mention of private open-market housing, which is interesting.  I thought there would be a fair bit involved as it’s usually where the bread and butter lies in a lot of developments with the first time buyers used as a trade-off to get the green light.

Problem with first time buyers they are sold at a reasonably low capped rate, which can mean they sometimes get crammed in on sites to get the full commercial value of the land.

The Council will not be able to change the land use so that they can then build houses, it's illegal, otherwise the current administration would be buying relatively worthless farmland all around the borough, granting planning permission and then selling the land at greatly inflated rates thus generating huge income for the Council at the detriment to private land owners and the green belt.

Some people would argue that this sale of assets would be in the greater public interest i.e. capital to build library, art gallery, social housing, even a football stadium.

I do know that the Council will be able to sell assets in the near future and will have a capital fund for public buildings, however, would the average household in Swindon rather see a state of the art library or a state of the art football stadium, our attendances should be able to tell you the answer to that one.

Add to this that the council is skint (much like the football club) and aiming to keep Council tax rises down in the face of huge extra burdens form central government then it will be very difficult to persuade democratically elected councillors to build a football stadium ahead of buying new books for schools etc.

Hull City Council become very rich after the sale of Kingston Communications and are probably a bit different to SBC (saying that Hull City Council is rated the worst in the country) which is maybe how they afforded the capital to build a new sports facility??

I think Wootton bassett maybe a good idea but are North wilts Council going to be anymore sympathetic than SBC?? All councils face the same funding problems, just look how public services are going down the drain everywhere.

Cheers chief.

Looks like it could really go wither way.  The argument seems to be that the club would benefit to the tune of £25 million, which provided the council retain overall ownership of the site is not strictly true.  Again harps back to the argument of ‘community facility’ against ‘improved accommodation’ to benefit a private business.

All depends on the exact facts as that article doesn’t really tell the story I’ve read elsewhere today.

Back to Hull again the unfortunate difference is that the whole City was incredibly united in backing the scheme from the word go.  

I’ll always remember talking to an old dear well into her 70’s and even with all of the facilities she was unlikely to ever use the site yet she paid for it (well her tax did) and was still incredibly proud and positive about the whole thing.

Part of the problem seems to be that the CG isn't too bad a ground, we have no terracing, 2 respectable side stands, nothing is falling down too much either.  Compared to a lot of recently redone grounds ours ain't too bad.  To the untrianed eye, the non regulars of the Town it is hard for them to see the need for the stadium, even less so the additional facilities and secondary income streams that it could bring.

only getting a new stadium to increase revenue right?

Don’t quote me on this but I’m pretty sure the potential release/sale of the Goddard sporting Covenant was negotiated during Shaw, at least in part which would allow the change in use of the land.

I’ve no idea just how much of the land surrounding the ground the Covenant protects but in parts it gives us some room to negotiate as our potential demise/runner leaves a gaping big site with very limited usage.  Unless the council finds a new tenant to pay the 100k+ annual rent on the CG then it faces the significant loss of income and faces having to pay the up-keep and maintenance of a large site.  

In theory (and it's a big-un) turning down the development actually could cost the council a fair bit of cash not only in lost revenue through rent but technically they wouldn't get away with a derelict stadium on site for to long (provided it’s lands end or bust for the club) before it had to be replaced then you're talking demolition costs without recuperating cost on any commercial development as the land’s protected.

All this presuming the club don’t expect the council to make up that missing 20 odd million in funding!   :|

Again though I’ve no idea just how much actual protection the Covenant gives us individually as a club or the actual use of the site in the future.  If it specifically protects Swindon Town FC and is bound to do so then it’s a big plus.  Anyone know?

They've not been fully shelved yet as I don't believe they are the last plans that were submitted...

so thats the end of Swindon Town then! i hope the council realise what they have done! they can all fuck off!  :fu:

Guys, calm down. Despite the large quantity of ill-informed Adver hype (note the story's written by their news/politics reporters who don't know shit about the football club) all this really means is that the current proposals in their current form are unlikely to progress. It does not mean that there is no chance of redevelopment at the CG, or in Swindon, just that the club need to come back with more realistic proposals (in terms of not expecting such a large asset transfer as part of the deal). A deal can still be done, just not on the terms the club proposed in the outline plans they submitted in August. Don't let a few local journos looking for an over-excited headline put us all into a depression that we've got no choice other than to watch the club go bust or leave the town.

As much as pauld may be correct, you can't help but feel disappointed and annoyed as  you see SWINDON TOWN FC looking at relegation and a struggle for actual survival as a club at all.

This news is just another worrying thing contributing to the depressed state of football in Swindon right now

Hell, yes. It is all part of a pretty depressing/worrying picture on and off the pitch but don't be conned into thinking things are as bleak as the Adver headline writers would have you believe. Just don't want to see anyone giving up because of an over-hyped local paper headline, is all

I think people are so pished off with the lack of progress - it's been years now! Unfortunately SBC haven't backed the club or the fans so I think many of us will do the same back to SBC.

in all honesty, im not really suprised. SBC seem to be totally uninterested by this football club, which is a shame. i'm struggling to see any positives that could come of any of this.

http://www.swindontownfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/News/NewsDetail/0,,10341~748244,00.html

Club response - new threats of moving out of the borough included.

I just seen that! Very interesting!

Well perhaps North Wiltshire or Kennet will be more welcoming.  I think a move to somewhere like Bassett wouldn't be so bad. It'd be either than or no club at all.

I guess it looks to me now like a move from the borough or no club at all - North Wilts council, please save us!

Swindon in my opinion has always been more of a regional club in a way for me, because so much of our fan base comes from outside the town.  Still, I can't/don't want to really contemplate watching STFC somewhere else.  Just outside I could probably cope with, would be much like where new stadiums are these days anyway.

Anyone know MK Dongs and Bolton aside how many clubs actually live outside of their patch nowadays?

Cheers

Within Swindon nothing major will happen that is slightly controversial whether it be a new ground for ourselves, a university at Coate or a large development on the front garden. It is simply because the majority on the SBC Parliament seats are too close so no councillor is prepared to risk upsetting a proportion of the electorate and therefore loose their seat.

Swindon as a town will remain with the same poor council services and lack of development until councillors are prepared to put personnel gains after what may lead to the benefit of the town. It is the simple problem of politics in this country today.

Sadly there is a massive risk the club will die due to the personnel gains of a few mediocre politicians

I think mediocre is being a touch generous thereJLP

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Grimsby play at Cleethorpes I thought
Man Utd play outside the City boundary as well, they fall within Greater Manchester though.


These are both historical ones though, so don't really count I suppose.

Was it Hartlepool where a supporter dressed as the mascot and stood to be mayor in order to make a point in regards to the club. I am sure he got in and have a feeling that he lasted a number of years in the role.

I am not suggesting here that a fan stands for parliment on the simple case of the ground/football club as I feel that such protests can do more harm than good. What would be of intrest is for someone to stand for a seat as an independent with the simple wish and desire to improve services available for the people of Swindon. Mke it clear from the start that not every person will like everything that they will do/support but at the end of the day they would like to improve the town as a whole.

The football club/ the lack of the libuary adn the Mechanics intstitute sums up SBC in a nut shell

come to Calne and name it Calne Town FC.  :beers:

hmmm, how far does the borough extend around swindon? not living near swindon i'm a little confused about all of this.

is the borough what was renamed 'thamesdown' a few years ago?

bingo. no wonder this town is such a joke to outsiders.

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Not me I'm afraid and I will happily hold my hands up and accept I cant spell despite having a degree. I blame Microsoft for spell checkers

It was indeed. I believe that up to about a year ago he was still in office, as I recall an interview on Radio 5 Live.

Pretty much, yes.

Although, Devlin was on Points West at lunchtime and said they'd been offered an "opportunity" outside of the borough.

I'm just writing the story for News Online at the mo ... basically they've been offered something outside but only a few miles, so could be North Wilts, Kennet, Cotswold or Vale of White Horse ...

Also, Devlin said (but not on-air - on the record, though) that is was a groundshare.

Looks like they have a backup plan that will see them still more-or-less in Swindon but not in the borough.

Groundshare?! Any clue as to who?

It's probably Bath rugby club isn't it?

Who has a ground within a couple of miles big enough to stage League Football?  Anyone?  I guess it would mean building on their site, or are we talking Bath joining us in the new stadium.

Basett?
Even Chippenham sounds a little bit too far on that description but that's still my hunch as the only place willing to dig up green space.

The obvious location would be Hunt's Copse....although its in the BoS, but outside the built up area...

Devlin said it was outside of the Borough so that option is out ...

My guess would be sharing with Bath, personally ... but you have to ask how far down the M4 we would go before we weren't Swindon any more.  The same logic applies to Bath.

*cough*Gloucester*cough*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/4485860.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/4485860.stm

Hardly 'a few miles outside town', is it?

Yeah just about to say thinking about it the league wouldn't let us, and I don't think they'd allow Chippenham either.

Basically, we're not gonna have a club to support.

I dunno. Off the top of my head, Bassett seems like a good plan especially if they put it off J16 away from any housing. There's hotels and light indutrial stuff there.

It's away from the NIMBYs as well, which suits both public and club.

J17 would be less ideal but perhaps still acceptable - the trouble with that is the impact on the current team in Chippenham. Can't think they'd be too happy UNLESS they are the ones offering the groundshare.

Who knows?

'Deputy Chairman Mark Devlin said the club could move "a few miles outside the town" and ground share in a similar way to Huddersfield and Reading FC'.

I didn't realise Huddersfield and Reading groundshared with each other!!

On the ground share front it could only really be a Rugby club as there is no point moving in with another football team. Gloucester or Bath. A shared football/rugby Stadium half way between Bath and Swindon???

i think it's chippenham. they were looking at a new ground a few years back but that went wrong so my guess is there. as long as the seats are Red and they have easy access travel from Swindon then im not bothered

aren't Bath planning to redevelop the rec though?

Chippenham is looking a good bet in respects to my previous post, plus they dont have a league club so not affected by football league rules. Stadium close to the M4 would be my guess. I certainly wouldnt have problem travelling to there for Swindon games. Even more happy with it as Swindon Council will get fuck all from it! :beers:

me too. i wouldnt mind it in Wooton Bassett becuase even though i dont drive its still quite easy to get to

Possibly, but there isnt much room to develop there either as its right in the centre of town and restrcted space on two sides of the current ground (sound familiar???)

i wouldnt mind chippenham at all tbh

does indeed! wherever it is i just hope its near enough to Swindon to still feel like Swindon Town FC

It will always be STFC. but remember a huge proportion of our fans come from outside of Swindon (Chippenham, Malmesbury, even alot of places in Ox***dshire) Alot of the poulation of Swindon arent from here originally and couldnt give a toss about the club.

 Unfortunately what SBC get from it is a chunk of land they can sell off for development......Thamesdown Transport will probably lay on subsidised buses to The Madejski from the car park.

Isnt there an old covenant on the land saying it can only be used for sporting uses anyway??? which could be part ofr the reason that the redevelopment of the CG idea has been scuppered.

 Covenants although inconvenient can be bought out. The reason the scheme is a no go is that the club is skint.... and wants something that it can't pay for....its a sort of Catch 22.

 Next phase will be to see what Plan B is......I doubt there is one and fully expect to see the plug pulled before the end of the season.

plan b is the move "elsewhere" though isn't it?

Has to be Bassett way or towards Highworth surely? Would STFC really move as far as Chippenham?  bath Ruggers could move down this way. Isn't a London Rugby club (is it Irish?) play at Reading?

i would of thought so rich yeah..as i just said on thisis surely we are eligble for the council right to buy :D  :D

Yeah, London Irish.

They obviously have a plan B -- unless Devlin was lying, which I doubt.  Would be a silly thing to do in these circumstances.

 But the Plan B stated so far makes no sense.

A face I wouldnt tire of punching.
Fuck you very much, North Swindon torys!
http://www.conservativesintouch.com/uploaded/files/northswindonintouch_com/JT-headshot-aug04.jpg

Has anyone actually got pictures of the proposal that they rejected, saw a picture on the adver website but it was tiny!

Makes sense to me. What don't you understand? They've been offered an opportunity outside of the borough. I understand that much. I don't understand the specifics, but that's because we've not been told them yet.

Yeah, really clever. Have a go at about the only councillor who actually backs the club. Nice one.

I'm with Reginald on this.  If plan A falls down on the CG site how or more importantly who would cough up both the land and the green to develop on another site?

Certainly the legality remains exactly the same with cashing in on the current site more so if it benefits a club not even in the Borough.

Question on both plans is who is actually funding the £20 million shortfall?

Going full circle how would Shaw have ever got the go ahead if it was reliant in part on development on the CG site?  Precedent already set perhaps?

Agreed, from what i can read into it he is the only one backing us.

I think Swindon Tartan Army is just a bit of a cock, don't pay any attention.

Only one factor seems to be in the Club's favour.
If SBC is intelligent enough to realise it's complete cockup with the Mechanics Institute, and the trouble it has caused them, following many earlier and present failures to enable preservation of historic sites, perhaps they might see the spectre of STFC playing elsewhere, being £100,000 p.a. rent worse off, and a ground and buildings disused and no good to anyone.
Presumably SBC would be saddled with the costs of buildings demolition, although they belong to the Club? Then there is the sporting usage covenant, how would SBC get round that and remove and develop a festering eyesore?
Oh I forgot- they don't mind! One to add to the Mechanics and  the old Locarno! Let it fester away!  ( Feeling bitter today.)  :evil:

 Every reason to be Normy....I don't though because all the issues you quote and a string more, led me to think that with the involvement of SBC nothing could possibly happen......its now up to the Board to put up or push off.

 Think we may move to a clearer picture by spring,.

Plan B is moving out of the borough, but not as far as the distance Franchise travelled (approx 60 miles).

I honestly think this is a case of Devlin trying to play hard ball.  Not sure if this plan b is a serious one, or whether we're just calling the councils bluff.

Can't see us being in much of a better position relocating away from Swindon.  Unless it's very close to the borough boundaries.

 I know what has ben said, but this is the bit that makes no sense...outside the Borough, but rules changed since MKD limit it to sonmething like 20 miles.

 Not towards Newbury....to share with another sport..  what is there within 20 miles.

 If we've no money to develop the CG how have we got money to develop elsewhere....especially as there'll be no STFC favourable development at the CG.......leave it a few years as an empty shell and it'lll become an ASDA with a mega car park.

Apaprently there are 3 companies ready to invest and develop, but we need the councils backing first.

I'm sure the rugby club in question will come to us rather than the other way around.

Sorry I just hate Tory's!!!

My mistake, I must have misread, I thought he was one of the ones complaining about the stadium plans.

As for the £20 million shortfall, Listening to Mark Devlin on wiltshire sound this morning there are several "financial institutions" willing to jump on board. Probably simila to how Wemberlee is bing funded by that german bank (and no I dont mean Bertie Vogts)

Sorry for making an honest mistake! :fu:

:kisskiss:

Ill let you off then!!! ha ha ha  :surrender:

I think that the land inbetween Cricklade and Blunsdon is where they are looking. I've nothing to back that up, it just makes sense. NWBC rather than SBC, most of the land is privatly owned by farmers I'd imagine.

Good transport link with the A419, not far from Swindon itself. I could be wide of the mark but it would all make sense to me.
_________________

anyway, back to the point, Listen to MD this morning he seems to ahave answered all the questions. SBC wouldnt just be giving us the land, they could be co-owners of the new facilities and will be getting money bakc from that. Alos their worries about our side of the funding seems to be covered by the fact that there are several "financial institutions" wanting to get involved in the project once it has the go ahead. Devlin said these offers were "pretty much guarenteed".

Haven't i seen that somewhere before :wink:

The key to the development as I see it is to make it a partnership whereby we raise the cash, the council does the land, and the profits of the development are split as such.  Therefore the council can make money by way of an ivestment, and we all know how much SBC loves money, and the club receive secondary income streams too.  External investors could be along the lines of chains of health clubs who can put their facilities in the development.

No, all original content there :|


 :wink:

As someone who's lived out of the area for over 12 years, I don't have much current knowledge of Swindon local council affairs.

From what I've read in this thread, I must say it's all a bit worrying to say the least.

I know I'm putting this in very simplistic terms, but how can a town the size of Swindon NOT have a football club in the town. Redevelop the CG and both the club and council benefit financially, surely.

Seems to me a few councillors need their heads banging together.

(apologies for intruding on an important discussion, and not knowing what covenant is  :oops: )

Covenant is a legal restriction put on a pice of land by its owner limiting it's use, for want of a more simple escription.  they have no time limit, and have to be negotiated out of with wads of cash if they are to be broken or changed.  Many pre-date cars etc and the construction industry would really like maximum time limits put on many of them.

Appologies if someone explained this earlier.

Sussex I think your simplistic and external view is spot on, yes we need a club, and IMHO some sensible developments could be mutually benficial to all concerned, but there's a lot of ground to be covered first.

Sorry, but that just won't fly with the auditors, never mind the electorate. Fact is the current plan involves SBC giving up a large chunk of land with (apparently) a developed value of £25m, which gets developed for housing, developer takes a big cut, some dosh gets put into stadium and in return SBC get a part share in a stadium that they already own. That is not going to be seen as "best value" which councils are legally obliged to seek in this kind of deal.

These "financial institutions" wouldn't happen to have more money than you can shake a stick at would they? Thought so.

Can't argue with that :D

Fair enough, but we've got few enough people on the council arguing for us as it is at the moment without laying into the ones who are on side! But, fair dos, honest mistake and all that.

He's right you know  :wink:

If the council do wish to dispose of the land in this way, they could make a value built case, with estimates of value in kind and future value or improvement savings. But it's difficult.

The ideal situation is that the auditor would like to see the land sold on an open market to achieve price, but we'd also be interested in the value that it can bring the community - often a lower price can be taken, if there is clear benefits to the community of the lower priced bid - I have thought that the lower priced 'bid' from STFC would achieve this, but Hilton or someone could also put in a good argument (employment, leisure, temp accom spase, regen) and could offer a higher price on the open market

I'll do some digging and find out a DA's take on this.....

IN STA's defence whether he's on our side or not, JT does have a certain hit me face look.

Its the smile. 'I'm such a miserable bastard I can't be arsed to smile but I better had try for the camera's'....

All this would remain a mute point if the Council took responsibility to sell the land, whichever way they felt best.  This would provide the Council with a lump of money that could, within all rules etc, be used for the development of a Community Sports Stadium - including other sports and educational facilities.

This is how the other Councils have approached the development conundrum it seems.

As far as I can see, it's close to a win win on every side.

Council has new and improved facilities for the Community as a whole, just the loss of a bit of land (nothing new for them).

Community gets better leisure facilities, local residents groups etc could be attracted as tenants of some of the new office space.

Buiness Ops for employment in the area - new hotel and retail space.

Football Club get improved facilities and ability to sub let properties within the new ground, or hire out function rooms etc.  This improves the turnover opportunities for the club.

No doubt some financial stuff can be sorted between Club and Council over the grant funding the club would attract to the deal.  This could in fact be arranged on the same basis as now- Council own the land, club own the stands - obviously they get nice new ones.

It's a nice idea Rob but not very realistic. When the council is slashing budgets, axing jobs, closing schools, has the worst social services dept in the history of the universe etc etc if it said "Right we're going to flog the CG to a developer for housing and then we'll have £25m to spend on a Community Sports Stadium" there'd be uproar. 90%* of people in Swindon would be demanding that if that kind of dosh is available, it should be spent on schools, teachers, social services for the elderly, a library, reducing council tax to a less eye-watering level etc. In fact the way the whole debate has been conducted in the past couple of weeks may have served to alert some taxpayers and councillors that the CG is potentially a little cashpot they could flog off and waste the proceeds of on something inane.


* Figure plucked completely out of mid-air, obviously

It doesn't help when the residents of Swindon don't give a shit about the club or improved sporting facilites. I bet in the places mentioned such as Hull, Reading etc the local electorate were 100% behind the schemes and didn't mind a small portion of their taxes help fund the developments. There again they don't have a council as totally useless as SBC.

RIGHT. I've just had a very fruitful phone conversation, with a very reliable source.

If we can't redevelop on the county ground site, we're jumping into bed with Supermarine.

I've been running this through in my head last nite whilst driving up to East Mids Airport for work, and what I've just been told pretty much confirms my thoughts.

We all know Rikki Hunt and Cliff Puffett headed a consortium to buy Supermarine's ground. Now i have it on very good authority that mr Hunt recently purchased a large slab of undeveloped land somewhere around the swindon area. It could well be that the land he bought is the farmland bordering the Supermarine facility, but I dont know if there are developing restrictions around the South Marston area, where Hunts Copse is, so can't be sure. I'm almost certain South Marston is outside the borough of Swindon though...

I dont believe for one second that 2 ex-chairmen would watch 'their' club die and do nothing to help. It makes sense to both parties to help eachother out really!

And as for the sizeable chunk of money that's missing from the project, you've gotta look at local property developers. large, national developers wouldn't touch it as there isnt enough profit, but smaller, more local ones would be far more interested. I've got a couple of names in mind, but one is far more suited than the other.

Gail McKenzie is a possibilty, but i'm not sure he's got the funds or the inclination! The one that fits much better is Matthew Singh, the guy who bought the Mechanics Institute with a view to turning it into a hotel, and then flogging it to a hotel chain for major profit. As far as I know, that plan is dead in the water (due to SBC, again), but Singh is still knocking around swindon apparantly, looking for a decent project. Any new development he'd be interested in would involve a 120-ish room hotel (any less and the major hotel chains wont touch it, as it wouldnt be profitable enough) and STFC wants a hotel in any new stadium.

The main point is SBC wouldnt be anywhere near as involved as they would be in a redevelopment of the county ground. Which can only be a good point.

Leggett, a very informative and well written statement

It'd be more honest and better if it didn't have that stupid women at the bottom of it - nice joke, can you get rid of it now?

It's just that its a good statement there, but hard to read while sat among a bunch of grey suited auditors with bananawomen there   :-))(

If Highworth is SBC then surely South Marston is aswell.

as i said, i dont know where the land that Hunt has bought is, so it could be that both clubs are moving to a new home.

I miss the banana already   :cry:

Let us know of any more news Leggett!

Cheers Leggett - avatars are small enough - but bananawoman was just in the middle of the screen bouncing up and down that banana.

It was a little difficult to explain, like a certain picture of Chuck Norris  :oops:

Yeah, i had some explaining to do while reading the Chuck Norris thread.  I found it hard to link anal passages to my line of work without insulting certain colleagues.

Yes, but the point is that SBC don't own the land as they do at the CG, which is what the sticking point is there.

 I've run by this theory before, it makes a lot of sense.

 Although Hunt's Copse is in the BoS it is outside the built up area, which might explain Devlin talking of something outside Swindon.

It would be quite an irony if RH came to the rescue of STFC

I thought he was talking about outside the border of control of SBC seeing as everytie we propose a site they pull the rug from under us.

As it's not SBC land then they do not have as much control, however, they are still the planning authority :-))(

one of the major points is that the land isnt owned by SBC, be it at hunts copse or wherever...

Without naming names there are several property developers in the swindon area who are considerably more influential and wealthy than either Matthew Singh or Gael Mackenzie, but they are less high profile.  Whether any of these would have the sort of funds needed is a different matter, as it is a big capital investment and would need a mojor commercial developer on side.

Go to the protest. I think it's 17th. Same day as Blackpool @ home

we'll probably end up outside swindon and called

"Just Outside Swindon Town FC"

Anyway, i don't know why the council are worried, they don't own the land.