Thetownend.com

When you look at the predicted pension amount online, does this mean you will get this in addition to COPE amount, or minus COPE amount.

https://www.gov.uk/check-state-pension

e.g.
IF cope amount is £40 p/w and your state pension prediction is £180

Does the government pay you £140 or £180. Its not overly clear.

I mean I'm proper fucked anyway so I guess it doesn't matter, its a few years into the future anyway,

Not sure how old you are, I'm late 40's and have reached the conclusion that I am unlikely to get any form of pension from the state or I will not reach the age to receive it with the speed they keep whacking the age up.

Well yeah, ditto. Very very very  late 40s

Was more an academic exercise after spotting something (that doesn't apply to me) on MSE

COPE is contracting out stuff isn't it? I don't have anything like that and you should definitely get proper advice from someone who knows what they're doing, but my understanding from a limited amount of time working for a pensions company was that contracting out stuff was meant to fill a gap, so I'd be surprised if it took you over the "normal" entitlement.

There is a bit about Contracting out here. I should really know what it's about as I used to work for a pension company but I seriously either can't remember or wasn't paying a lot of attention! I think before 2016 you had the option to Contract out and have your National Insurance payments go into a personal or Stakeholder pension (from memory I think the most you could pay was £3,600). Apologies I can't be any more help!

https://www.gov.uk/contracted-out

it contracting out where part of the then SERPs was paid into a private pension, SERPs is long gone (2016) and  I assume COPE will be a deduction from the predicted amount should I not get the full 35 years.. But it's not as clear as it could be!

what confused me when looking for the answer was this;


which seems odd, but isn't Government official

https://www.theprivateoffice.com/pensions/state-pensions

made me wonder if the ni I did pay was still enough to qualify. but idk

Surely your state pension is paid in full regardless of any extra private pensions.
I drew what little I had in a private pension and still get the full current pension amount,  only difference is you would probably have to pay tax on the private pension.

Sorry, to clarify, before 2016 in state terms:
   - There was a basic pension
   - There was a second part, State Earnings related pension scheme  (SERPS)

You paid into both parts.

However there was an option to "contract out" paying into SERPS. Instead the money that went into SERPS Government pot went into the your own private pension instead. So the Government got less from you if you were contracted out.

The question I'm asking is whether this "contracted out" amount is effectively "clawed back" when it comes to your sate pension when you retire. This could be done by reducing your state pension by a weekly amount equivalent to the contracted out amount (COPE).

You will of course get whatever you are due in your private pension.

No,  that is what I am saying,  your state pension is your state pension regardless.  Presuming of course you have made sufficient contributions.   I was in the same scenario as you and I still get my full pension.

ah, thanks!

As said earlier, not expecting anything. Nice to know my money is being put to good use for the future :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:

Thanks again Maniac, I found out COPE was only used in evaluation for the 2016 change to the new scheme and is exactly as you said.

@Tans, if we run out of state pension money my retirement plan is to keep working. My private pension is currently above the national average, but nowhere near enough to live off come retirement age. And there will be people worse off. Blimey.

Having retired a few years back I tried to walk across this minefield! I contracted out and therefore was not entitled to the full state pension. The other difference was I had to ensure I had paid my NI contributions for 40 years not 35 years. (This difference often confuses people) As I decided to take early retirement I had a shortfall in my number of “qualifying years” to enable me to receive my full entitlement. Just to add this was not the same as a full state pension because I continued to contract out.
The other thing worth checking as the Government info that I read at that time failed to mention I needed to pay my NIC’s for 40 years up to my actual retirement date. So it’s 40 years going backwards from your retirement date. I actually had more than 40 years contributions but I had to make contributions up to the day I actually retired. Hence I made some AVC’s to ensure I receive my full entitlement but I still don’t get a full pension as I contracted out as mentioned above.
My advice is find yourself a good independent Financial Advisor plus things may have changed since I went through the minefield.

At the time i was contemplating retirement  (I was self employed), my accountant told me it was better to have underpaid on NHI contributions as any amount you needed to ensure you got the full pension could be paid after retirement whereas if you had more than the necessary contributions you didn’t get them back,  may have changed since then but not to my (limited !!) knowledge.

Thanks mate !!.
P.S.   Can I have an increase next year please as my season ticket is sure to go up.

That will go up😀

On the plus side, Life Expectancy has fallen.

The state pension forecast system is good, but also terribly unclear.

The amount you see in big bold font is what you MIGHT get if you carry on paying National Insurance each year up until your state pension age. Usually it'll show the current state pension amount (£185.15pw). Most people will end up getting to this figure, but it's not guaranteed and will be different if you don't make the full quota of National Insurance contributions between the forecast date and state pension age.

Just below that box will be another figure, which is the amount of state pension you've actually built up based on your National Insurance record to date. This amount is essentially guaranteed, your future state pension won't be any less than this.

The COPE amount is, in theory, the amount the pension that received your contracted-out contributions would pay you in addition to the state pension.

In some odd situations it's possible for state pension to be in excess of the current amount if you were entitled to more under old state pension systems.

Happy to answer anything specific if it'll help further.

thanks Sam

so does that mean someone who contacted out is (very slightly) better off than someone who didn't - assuming they both qualify for a full pension.

it must do, right?

winner! baked beans on toast will be within reach

I started receiving my pension 18 months ago. I get the full amount State Pension even though I lived, and not clocking up any NI contributions, for the 10 years I lived in Ireland.

You have to be out of the ‘system’ for quite some time to not make the full 35 years worth of contributions.

At the moment trying to find out if Mrs Audrey will get an Irish State Pension as well as the UK one. She clocked up 10 years of contributions which is the minimum you need to qualify for a slice.

Potentially, yes, but not necessarily. Most people were contracted out by default through ocupational schemes, and will easily build 35 years of NIC, so will get full state pension plus have their contracted out pot.

As I alluded to above though, the old pre-2016 state pension was hideously complex and based on earnings levels. I've seen people who were contracted in to S2P/SERPS with state pensions >£250pw.

Under old EU rules, social security arrangements are preserved regardless of which state you accrue them in, so in theory Mrs Audrey's Irish state pension entitlement will be paid as part of her UK state pension.

ah I see Sam. I think I'm getting there.

I watched some of the Martin Lewis show during the week and it reminded me of this thread.

You can currently backdate missed years back to 2006 but after 6th April they are changing the rules and you can only backdate missed years back to 2017.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2023/02/martin-lewis-urgent-state-pension-boost/

Prediction? There won’t be one for my kids.

Thank you.

This is a very big deal for any approaching - or past - retirement age.  And if you have missed a few or several years of NI contributions for whatever reason.  It could be right now or never.

So I urge you to look at Bob's link, however boring!

It has enabled my wife to very significantly boost her State Pension due to missing years re NI contributions.

The cost of buying an equivalent annuity (compared to catching up with missing NI Contribution years) might have been 10 times the amount.

My wife receives state mention the figure you quote, I receive a far higher figure and haven't got a clue why.
I am 68.

Did you have SERPS? Or where you opted out and contributing to a workplace pension?

This isn't related to the State Pension, but I was doing a bit of housekeeping and had a look at a small pension i accrued during my first job at Standard Life when I started working.

I was playing about with the Retirement Illustration and it allowed me to do it from age 50-75. I thought the earliest you could take benefits was at age 55? It's a Deferred Benefits plan. (think it used to be called Final Salary)

The pot isn't particularly large so doesn't really matter when I take the benefits but the Tax Free Lump sum might be handy to pay down the mortgage and the annual pension would pay for a couple of holidays etc. I assume the annual payment quoted on these things is for life?

I've got about 4 older pensions that I need to sort out.

I’m no expert by any means, but if they are on the small-ish side I’d cash them out. I had a small workplace pension with M&S before I left for Greece and just cashed out the lot for about £5k - which was bloody good as I’d only worked there part time for a couple of years.

The wife (who knows more about this stuff than I) said that I'd be paying circa 40% on tax if I was to do that so might have to think again and suck it up for a further 7 years.

Also maybe the transfer value isn't as 'small' as i'd thought, bearing in mind i was only there 6 years and not earning very much.

Are you 48 then Bob?  :sherlock:

Oops, i added 7 to 50 rather than the correct number to my age! (Think 55 is going up to 57 soon)

No, I'm 46 this year.

Haha, young un  :D

Current minimum retirement age is 55, but will increase to 57 from 2028 so it's pegged to 10 years before state pension age.

Some old pensions have a protected retirement age of 50. That would have to be on a pension that started before 2006.

Taking smaller pots as a lump sum can make sense in some circumstances, but never take advice from strangers on the internet :) You could end up paying an awful lot of tax for no reason.

Take proper advice before you go fucking around with pensions.

Source: I'm a Chartered Financial Planner

I'm 55 this year,  decisions, decisions  :)

Wondering whether to cash in my old ones. What's the general tax implications if I did?

25% tax free, 75% taxable.

In most cases, the pension company will apply the ol' emergency tax which means you'll pay at least 40% and have to claim any overpaid tax back.

Been there twice with my tax free lumps. In all fairness the inland revenue returns promptly in April. Trick is to take the lim in March 😉

Yep, 2000-2006 was the pension I was querying.

and absolutely financial advice would be sought, tbf, I was hoping you would answer as I know you've provided information on these financial topics previously so thank you, as ever, for your feedback :)

That's a neat hack! (as the youngsters might say! :) )

Well take the lump in April and you’re fucked for a year for the difference if you’ve been stung for 40% and you’re realistically on a 20% banding.

My bad. Let me clarify. The tax free element should always be tax free irrespective of the time of year. The clue is tax free. However, if you make a draw down which I did (needs must) then take it in March. Stand easy.

So, 40% then  :(

I took my final salary pension out at 55 and reinvested into a private pension.

I took the 25% cash element of my private pensions when I went Ireland.

Bought a handful of greyhounds with it, built kennels and had a great laugh. Made no money, but loved every minute of it.

Surely, that’s what life should be all about!

You can claim back overpaid tax straight away using a P53 or P55 depending on the circumstance.


You mean you transferred it. Again, not something that should be done lightly, you're giving up guaranteed income in exchange for uncertainty. I'm sure you must've taken advice unless the transfer value was <£30k.

I know I must sound like a right boring cunt knowing the ins and outs of pensions.

But they are just a means to an end, not an end in themself. So if like Audrey you want to take the money and spunk it on greyhounds / whores / coke, good for you.

My job is to make sure people can do that, pay the least amount of tax possible, hopefully provide some peace of mind, and minimise the risk of outliving your money.

you spent your whole life working hard  why shouldnt you injoy it good on you.

Only until you get over 50, then you start thinking hard about what position you are in should you make it out that decade alive!

Of course its extremely difficult to do a damn thing once you realise, and working to 67 (68) will be your future.

Be surprised if i make it to state pension. Retirement age will be about 80 by then.

Yes I transferred it after taking financial advise. I think we discussed privately a couple of years ago and you knew the local company that I use. As you would be aware I can lower the investment risk when I choose to draw down plus I didn’t like the thought of losing 50% of my pension when I eventually pass away.

Don’t know about the ‘whole life’ bit as I jacked in work when I was 50!

Had 20 good years on top - so far!

Not necessarily. You've just described most people who enquire with us after having the "oh shit" moment in their fifties. There's always time to do something.

Prompted me to check my pension pot. Been working full time for a decade, never opted out of anything and my pension pot is about three quarters of a year's salary. Not worth that much as annuity, that much in total.

So that's good.

Now retired.
Been paying into pensions since 16.
Took a 25% tax free amount from a Final Salary scheme and made sure the annual income is under the tax allowance thus pay no tax.
Private pensions doing ok and won’t touch them to 3 years and have worked on a low risk 3% annual growth.
Mortgage paid off which is the game changer and an asset that can be downsized anytime.

State pension 67 thus build a bridge until that time.

Any young ones - make sure you invest into decent pensions. Find a decent pension advisor and check out growth history of investments.
Make use of Tax free ISA’s.
Time is invaluable.
Doing a part time job I love. I get paid doing a hobby and don’t pay tax.

Retirement is an adjustment. Make sure you have a purpose, hobbies etc because you suddenly have time. Losing friends makes you realise. My job was stressful and I don’t miss the Corporate bollocks and a job that was killing me.

I’m enjoying morphing into a grumpy old twat.

Interesting. I'll keep that in mind.

As I was lucky enough to be in a final salary scheme, from 50 I started paying in substantial AVCs so that I now have enough to cover the tax free lump sum and keep the full monthly payment. Worth considering if you are in a final salary scheme and have spare cash.