Thetownend.com

Wray set to act on 'cheat' slur
           
           


  FORMER Swindon Town chairman Jeremy Wray has said he will consider “the best way to respondâ€� after an article branding the club as “cheatsâ€� who committed “financial dopingâ€� under his stewardship was published in a national newspaper on Sunday.

           

http://www.thisisswindontownfc.co.uk/news/headlines/10173786.Wray_set_to_act_on__cheat__slur/?ref=rss
           
           
           

Do 'em Jezza

We love you jezza!

If I am being a bit thick here, I'm sure somebody will correct me.

Why exactly is Jeremy Wray set to act on this? Does he still retain an official capacity at STFC? Surely we should expect something from the likes of Nick Watkins rather than Wray? Or as I as ill-informed as that troll from Oxford last night?

Be gentle....

The guy named him specifically.

And so he did.....doh! Thanks.

Go Jezza!!!!!!!!

I thought he did have a stake all be it a much smaller one than black. Fitton also has a small stake.  I'm sure black wanted both to write off some of it or convert it to shares. Plus the guy loves STFC.

Can we sue the daily mail and the sun as well why we're at it? I hate those cunts.

Talking of apologies

http://www.mirror.co.uk/for-the-record/sir-roger-moore--an-apology-1545092

Their stake must be pretty small if Black owns 98%

It is but it makes no difference to the fact that Wray personally was directly libelled in that article. Hope he and the club take them to the fucking cleaners.

 It might be worth treating this subject as sub judice now....whilst the legal people look at the FLP and scum site.

Seconded...

Its not sub judice until a trial date is set is it?

I think a full retraction and apology is more likely anyway.

Well I'm not taking the chance...lawyers are right up there in the cunt stakes with bankers, politicians, and journalists.

Yes indeed, hidden away on page 7 at bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.

You forgot supermarkets and council parking departments ( this could go on and on...)

I hope you're right, but the apology will need to be at least as prominent as the original article and unequivocal.  When you accuse someone of being a cheat, you impugn their character.  Very different from the usual circumstances of a newspaper retraction, which more usually concern a basic & mundane factual inaccuracy.

I'm inclined to include OB, after a recent needless festive harrassment, which probably cost me a shag.

Inclined? Everyone knows the OB are cunts. Put that Uniform on someone who, in probability were bullied at school, and they seem to think they can do what they want.

You are aware rape is illegal Reginald?

FootballLeaguePaper ‏@TheLeaguePaper
To all those posting with regard to Chris Dunlavy's article in Sunday's Paper: The editor is currently in contact with Swindon Town FC.

FootballLeaguePaper ‏@TheLeaguePaper
As correspondence with Swindon Town Football Club is ongoing we shall be making no further statement on the matter at the present time.

I got a reply:

 :nod:

Bet their offices have sparkling white toilets :)

Have to say that is a decent response.  No quibble.  He understands that the article was wrong and, based on that, I would expect the apology and the retraction to be unambiguous.

There is, of course, the matter of editorial control...and how it clearly failed in this instance.  David Emery is partly responsible here; not entirely fair to lay the blame wholly at the writer's door.  But that is more a matter for the FLP.  As a Swindon Town supporter, and someone who would back Jeremy Wray to the hilt on most things, all I really care about is that the record is set straight and the unfounded accusations made against the club that I love withdrawn.

Totally agree. Full and fulsome apology. And he's right that it was a good piece about the way some clubs use Administration as a way of avoiding debts, but he chose the wrong peg to hang it off, meaning it went from "reasonably good if unoriginal article on financial doping in general" to "utter horseshit and massively libellous attack on totally the wrong target".

So long as they use that as the apology, give it equal prominence to the original article and accompany it with full colour photos of Jeremy Wray horsewhipping the journalist, all's well that ends well.

Next up - talkShite.

I recieved the same reply. From the tone it would appear that it is being dealt with seriously, which is good.

Yeah I got the same one.

Seems a reasonable enough man who understands what went wrong and is trying to get it sorted. The true test though will be what appears in the next edition of the paper. They can't just bury an apology in a corner somewhere. At the very least it should be the main feature of Mr. Dunlavy's column to counterbalance the original article.

It's a pity more journalists don't take clubs to task for their financial mismanagement, as many clubs have done and gotten away with far worse than us. But the wrong target was chosen which is inexcusable given the ongoing problems at other clubs - Portsmouth would have been a suitable target for example.

I'm not sure they are prospering from overspending any more.

Quite so. A better target would be Leeds.

For his sake, you'd have to hope David Emery has run that response past his lawyers, as he can only print a full retraction of that sort if he's already come to a resolution with the club. I suspect they've accepted to leave it at a printed apology. Not worth pursuing financial compensation from a small niche publication. TalkSport on the other hand...

I don't think Portsmouth have ever been held to account for what they did - buying success (and proper success, not just a crappy League Two trophy) with other peoples money. They are the prime example of a club living beyond it's means, getting success as a result and then using administration as a get out of jail card.

Sure Leeds did something very similar, but it was some time ago. The bigger issue with Leeds for me is them being sold for a pittance (a few pence in the pound I think) when there was obviously more value in the club, as shown by the massive profit Bates has made by selling the club recently.

I reported The Football League Paper to the Press Complaints Commission re the article.
Here is their response 

The Commission’s jurisdiction extends only to those newspapers and magazines that belong to one of the five publishers’ associations – the Newspaper Publishers’ Association, the Newspaper Society, the Scottish Daily Newspaper Society, the Scottish Publishers’ Association, and the Periodical Publishers’ Association – and that contribute to the Press Standards Board of Finance, the body which collects an industrial levy to fund self-regulation. More information about our funding is available on request and on our website.

While the vast majority of UK publications fall under our control, The Football League paper is not one of them.  It would therefore have no obligation to accept our decision on any complaint, or even to co-operate with our enquiries.

I am afraid that, in the circumstances, we are unable to assist you further in this matter. If you have not done so already, I would suggest that you contact the publication directly.

 
Good news anyway - all our emails to TFLP seem to have helped get the editor to do his job even if after the horse had bolted. Sad thing is - some damage has been done.

They've been used as a plaything by various dodgy gangster frontmen for years, they've dropped like a stone down the divisions, they've spent years on the brink of going bust, they've lost pretty much any assets of value, they've been in and out of court for years, and they're still on the verge of liquidation. They're still releasing even players signed on a month to month basis and even if they do avoid liquidation, they've got a further 10 point minimum deduction to come. To add to the others they've already had. And their downward descent isn't finished yet. But if they actually survive most of their fans would welcome points deductions and relegation with open arms, just to still have a club. Hardly "get out of jail".

Short of the FA burning Fratton Park to the ground and sowing the pitch with salt, not sure quite what further punishment you'd like.

I'm not on about more punishment. From my view point very little emphasis was placed on what they achieved as a result of their financial mismanagement, which was at the expense of other clubs. The FA Cup win, qualifying for Europe and an extended stay in the Premier League were all stolen from other clubs which handled their finances in a better way. People go on about the impact on their fans, what about the impact on other clubs?

Though the same as with Leeds, I think there are some important questions that should be asked about the administration process which at best is a broken and flawed process, for football clubs at least.

Nobodies mentioned Southampton, that was fishier than all of them.

There's a reason jonny dislikes Portsmouth so much ..... yeah, you're right, Southampton should be demoted two divisions at least

http://www.swindontownfc.co.uk/news/article/footballleaguepaper-613193.aspx

Apology received, damages paid. No sign of the horsewhipping though

Damn them!  Nothing wrong with the apology.  I'm going to have to have a grumble about the grammar on the Club website instead.

Well that's the point of the points deduction. However, you do raise an interesting point, all Saints-tinted glasses aside :) Portsmouth bought their FA Cup win effectively by financial doping. Should that be considered cheating (probably) and if so should they be stripped of that title? And if so, how would that be applied more generally? e.g. how far back do you go? Would it only be triggered by an insolvency event? etc etc

Don't give a toss about football rivalries, well remembered though.

IIRC Southamptons debts were limited to a £5m bank overdraft and a £20m mortgage on their stadium. The bank were paid in full and the mortgage was settled for a one off payment (about £4m I think), so it was just them that lost out. I might be wrong but I can't remember any other debts that weren't settled in full. Though I always thought the way the mortgage was written down by so much so quickly looked a little dodgy.

I know that's technically correct, but for some reason "have" seems to fit better in my head.

Fair enough and rather prompt too.


I bet it has...

Stripping titles isn't the answer, putting in place the correct financial controls and heavier punishments are the way to go.

I'm in favour of a financial health check at the end of the season (especially to ensure you are able to service any debts over the coming 12 months). If you don't pass it then immediate punishments, transfer ban, points deduction etc. Then if a club goes in to administration they should be kicked out of the league, unless it wasn't their fault.

At present the benefits out weigh the negatives, so there is no incentive to keep your finances under control.

I'd agree with the financial health check and heavier penalties, but kicked out of the league is a bit harsh. And not sure how you'd prove "wasn't their fault". One thing I'd like to see is more punishment of the individuals - all too often you see irresponsible or downright criminal chairmen/directors leave a club knee-deep in shite, they walk away scot-free and it's the incoming board that's left to clean up the mess and take the punishment imposed on the club. A directors' bond of some sort, forfeit on insolvency and used to pay off creditors, might be some sort of answer, but that would prohibit most supporter directors as is the case at Swansea etc.

By not their fault I mean something like a TV deal collapsing.

Again, I don't see the benefit of the director health checks. They're too easy to bypass and no indication of what they'll be like in the future. With the correct financial controls in place in doesn't matter who is in charge.

Think a change in the mindset of fans is required as well though. I've even seen a few people on here wanting a new sugar daddy to come in so we can continue living beyond our means and no doubt running up even larger debts. Clubs need to live within their means and fans need to acknowledge and accept that. I still think it's wrong that we've been losing £1m plus a season for as long as I can remember.

The whole football structure would need to be changed - transfer deals, wages, tv deals, merchandising etc. The fact that big teams like Manchester United are in debt just shows how the money in football has just gone crazy. There are some deterrents in place but if someone's rich owner is wanting to get out of their club and take the losses themselves it's ultimately the club and fans that suffer. Potentially ourselves included!

That's exactly it.

Only way I could see to stop this mess is some sort of luxury tax like they do in Major League Baseball, I won't explain it as anyone can look it up on wikipedia/google.

That and fairer distribution of television money.

That would really help smaller teams. Currently L2 clubs get £300k, L1 £800k then the jump to the Championship is £5m. Agreed that there isn't so much interest in the lower leagues but that sort of jump in income would/could solve no end of financial worries for so many clubs if it was more fairly distributed.

That depends on your view of fairness.
As supporters of a lower league club we'd naturally support a less skewed distribution.
However, the power is the hands of the larger clubs who would no doubt argue that the produt which generates the income to TV is the PL, and that hardly anyone subscribes to Sky to see League 1 and 2 matches.
To change it as you suggest would need a sense of caring and nuturing of the grass roots and the various levels of football in the UK.  I can't see this returning, particularly now that most top clubs are the playthings of overseas investors who wouldn't be expected to have any sense of looking after the game as a whole in England.

The problem with any club that suddenly acquires extra income is that it inevitably disappears on wages so the club itself benefits very little.

The truth of the matter is that while we are a decent sized club in League 1, in the Championship we would be minnows a la Peterborough.

A middling season in the Championship would get us an average of about 10,000 IMO.

Simply not good enough. The people of Swindon just do not want to turn out and support the club in any great numbers

Looking at Peterborough as an example, they are having a pretty poor season and I have seen that their crowds have dropped around the 6k mark. I don't know what their wage budget is of course but surely they must me making a pretty big loss with these sort of crowds?

God knows we've done this to death, but I disagree.  We are averaging 8,400 this season.  We would add 1,000+ to the average gate simply because of the larger away attendances brought by the bigger Championship clubs.  (If you think that home support would be largely unaffected by promotion to the Championship, you're probably about right with your 10,000 estimate.)

Personally, I think 11,500 to 12,000 would be nearer the mark...pushing on towards 14,000 or 15,000 with investment in the Club's infrastructure, particularly the stadium.  If it's possible in Swansea and Reading, it's possible in Swindon.

Yes we would be minnows but even with increased spending - if we didn't have our £13m deficit and started from 0 -  £5m really would not leave us very short of breaking even, add to that gate receipts, merchandise, cup run money etc and it would be fully achievable!

The problem is that it wouldnt solve the financial worries, it would actually make them worse! If all clubs in league one were given an extra £1m per season all of them would go out and spend it on players because they would all assume that everyone else is going to spend it on players, so if you dont you'll get left behind!

Thats why the wage cap is so crucial to making lower league clubs sustainable.

In many ways ahoundsell is right, if more money comes in then most (if not all clubs) would spend that on more wages for better player, when in reality they are the same players they can just be paid more for their services.

What is really needed is in my opinion is a divisional wage cap per player, how the fuck can any player at our level justify wages in excess of £3k per week? I know it was tried in the 50's and 60's and Jimmy Hill stopped it because it was unfair at the time, but at the time players were paid a maximum wage of £20 per week when the average wage of the nation was £19 per week.

Maybe to cap players wages per division of £30k top flight, £10k Championship, £3k div 1 and £2k div 2.

Obviously thats just as an example, but how can anyone want more than that per week JUST for playing football?

Just my thoughts and I doubt anyone will agree with them.

And yes I understand that players may well move abroad to places like Italy or Spain or Russia and be paid more....but thats their choice, if they want to leave then let them there are plenty of players would not leave in pursuit of wealth.

I agree with both of you on the wage cap. The gulf between the divisions is too big for a lot of clubs to bridge now.

With regards extra funding for clubs, they all have a business plan like any other company and if they stick to this plan with the intention of making a profit they shouldn't be spending/wasting any extra payments they receive. I know obviously some clubs don't adhere to their plans hence their losses. Part of our plan was to include extra revenue schemes (via stadium development etc) and to achieve promotion and therefore become a profitable club. This doesn't happen overnight and it's unfortunate that our owners are wanting to sell but there is potential for the future and this should make us an attractive prospect for future investors.

There's a theory that player wages trickle down the leagues. The higher they are in the top flight, the higher they are at the bottom.

BRADFORD CITY CHEATS!

Bradford City have been in administration twice since 2002, and had been expected to overspend on wages by £600,000 this season as they push for promotion to League One.

Absolutely disgusting. Think of the clubs that play by the books and live within their means. Bradford gambled on a cup run and got lucky. cheats

I did an analysis of our attendances and those of the Championship, going back about 15 years or so. I came to the same number, there would be potential to go above that but it would need a bigger ground to take advantage of the higher attendances for the games against the biggest clubs.

But with a new/rebuilt 30k capacity stadium, regular Championship football and Paolo in charge, who knows - it worked and turned out well for other clubs.

Would like to agree with you here and always use Reading as an example of growing crowds.
Back in 70's and 80's they had smaller crowds than us so what was the business model ?
Along the lines of investment.

Live in hope. We need to own the ground and bring in new revenue streams.

Did i read somewhere that in terms of population, Swindon has one of the largest catchment areas for fans, i know clubs like Carlisle don't have clubs anywhere nearby but they also don't have much population.

I had raised the point that Brighton are averaging around 25k, but this was countered by others mentioning Hove and Lewes etc which feed into that catchment, but i still think that Swindon can sustain better crowds?

I think it was 300k catchment area

The population of Reading borough is 150,000. Swindon borough is 210,000.

Population area breakdown by club.

http://football.totalworlds.com/clubs/population/index.html

While technically correct, the comparison means very little.  Reading Borough administers only a fraction of the town's urban area, where as Swindon Borough administers almost all of urban Swindon (barring a few streets in the far NW).  Much of S & SE Reading is administered by Wokingham Borough and a slice of the far west of Reading falls in to West Berkshire.  You only have to take a look at a map to see that the Reading urban area is bigger than Swindon's.  Not only that, but its hinterland is much more densely populated as well.

But equally don't Reading have a number of league teams nearer than we do and thus 'sharing' this potential supporter population (if that makes sense - although I can only think of Wycombe off the top of my head, so that argument may be rubbish!)

Reading don't really. The big draw used to be Southampton and Chelsea/wes london clubs