Thetownend.com

David Gauke then.  The treasury minster has had a go at people, plumbers and the like, doing a bit of work cash in hand.  In the meantime he goes home to his solicitor wife who specialises in corporate tax law.  I wonder what corporate tax lawyers do?

Meanwhile the top dogs of government, dave and gideon have been bandiying around phrases such as 'morally repugnant' and 'morally wrong' about tax dodgers whilst doing sweetheart deals with big business allowing them to pay fuck all tax or not chasing companies who are hiding trillions of pounds offshore.

So the question is, are they cunts, or am I a cunt for thinking the cunts are a bunch of cock juggling thunder cunts?

They are tories.  What else do you need to know?

If I want to pay cash in hand to my window cleaner, I will.  I'm taxed to the hilt - first via PAYE/income tax and, then, the element that is left to me is subject to an array of further taxes.  VAT is just the start.  The government seems to think it has a right to take, and then take, and then take again...at every step of the way.

Frankly, this Gauke person, who I'd never heard of until today, can fuck off.  The day I start turning to politicians for moral guidance is rather a long way off.

It's getting ridiculous to a point where, at some stage, the government will be telling us how we have to arrange our financial affairs to maximise the amount of tax we pay.

Everybody should take a leaf out of the Frog's book and riot like fuck.

So where do you draw the line when it comes to cash in hand?
From what I understand some of the financial troubles in Greece (whilst not the cause of it) are down to the tax payers not paying tax, with restaurant's, taxi's etc only accepting payment in cash so they don't have to declare it, that's really going to help a failing economy isn't it!!

Is paying cash in hand as bad as buying dodgy gear that "fell off the back of a lorry" from some bloke down the pub? Some would argue that it is.

I think it's more the hypocrisy that gets peoples' backs up.

Our situation is that Joe Bloggs pays his plumber in cash so that the plumber avoids a bit of VAT.

In Greece, their tax bills are "settled" by handing over brown envelopes full of cash to government officials.

Slightly different situations there.

This.

Yes, possibly true but where do you draw the line?
If every plumber wants to save a bit of VAT the lost revenue is going to have to be made up somewhere else....
I should point out I don't work for the Inland Revenue or have any other vested interest, I do pay vast sums in PAYE etc each month, however why should a "plumber" be able to save a bit of VAT?

The problem is HMRC doesn’t have the resources to get locked into a lot of these legal battles. When the General Anti-Abuse Rule comes into play (and I’m sure it’s a matter of when and not if) it will be a lot harder to avoid tax successfully.
Whether or not a tradesman declares his earnings is entirely down to him. If I want to pay him in cash I will. It’s not down to the consumer at all.

Yes, the plumber saves VAT, but it's only an additional cost they would've passed on to you anyway, so really it's you that's benefited at the revenue's expense.

The self employed fiddling their taxes is an issue,but this stinks of hypocrisy.

These are the most recommended comments to this story in the Telegraph and the Guardian.  Rarely can a comment by a government minister have attracted such negative press from both the Right and the Left (for completely different reasons, obviously).

The Telegraph
No, sorry and all that but the government has long since ceased to represent anything I am willing to pay taxes towards. They have lost all sense of shame, all claim to moral justification; they have rigged the electoral process and betrayed the nation.

I am not interested in the slightest in their opinions of my morals.

The Guardian
I see after the various articles about the 20tn being hidden offshore they've got their priorities right. I knew it was the plumbers all along.

So that's alright then?

The day I take lessons in morals from a politician is the day the devil will skate to work.

"its morally wrong to do this, that and the other". Fuck off.

Incidentally I got our cars serviced recently and didn't pay 1p VAT all legally. Found a good, local to work back street garage that isn't VAT registered on account of earnings. In your face Gauke.

PS. Ghanimah must be having a lay in. He'd love this thread.

It'll be morally wrong to breathe soon, mark my words....

There's a massive difference between the local jobbing handyman getting paid cash in hand/keeping earnings off books and those hiring professional tax lawyers to avoid paying tax, either individually or corporately.

The government are being hypocritical about this, but once again it proves that there are a mass of tax loopholes in this country that need to be addressed, and soon. Not all of those are the fault of the current clowns either....

I don't see how you can say one is right and the other wrong. To my mind they are both wrong.
You can't pick and choose to suit your own moral compass.
It's a bit like saying I only broke the law a little bit officer!!

I didn't say whether it was right or wrong.

I didn't say one was right and one was wrong. I just stated there is a massive difference between the two, but you can't pick on one without dealing with the other, just to suit your own agenda.

I think we're in agreement really....

Everyone should just pay their fair share of tax, and look to avoid paying taxes they don't need to - within the rules. If a plumber is not declaring their income they receive for services they offer they should be fined accordingly.

I don't think that anybody is saying that anybody should be allowed to avoid paying tax.

Life isn't black & white though, is it?  There are many, many shades of grey in between.  (Cue jokes about mummy porn.)  To take an example, consider two scenarios:

• Take your car for a spin on the motorway at 72 mph.
• Take your car for a spin on the motorway at 130 mph.

Both acts contravene the Highway Code.  But should they be prosecuted the same?  I think most of us would agree that the 130 mph spin should be prosecuted vigorously and that, probably, the 72 mph spin should not be prosecuted at all.

This is a valid comparison.  For the 72 mph spin, read the window cleaner or plumber avoiding VAT.  For the 130 mph spin, read the Non Dom avoiding £ millions every year, probably with the assistance of chums/contacts in Parliament who were probably, until recently, claiming expenses they shouldn't have been as well.  Perspective and scale are everything.  The focus on the little guy attracts attention away from the bigger problems/tax avoiders out there...which was probably the intention of Mr Gauke anyway.

But the plumber is breaking the rules by not declaring income, ie driving at 75mph,  whereas the non doms are using the rules to their benefit, (going 130mph - but on an autobahn perhaps), which some see as morally wrong.

The issue is not about one being more moral than the other. The issue for me is that the govt are trying to reclaim tax money from self employed people, which is a drop in the ocean to what the know, and encourage, MNC's and non doms to take out of the country.

Sorry...Non Doms was a bad example.  As you say, there are rules in place where they can cut a deal with HMRC subject to an annual payment.  It would have been better if I had focused on tax avoidance in general by multi-nationals/corporates.  The scale of this avoidance, which is assisted often by consultancy firms with strong links to parliamentarians, dwarfs anything that could be claimed back from tradespeople.

You are absolutely right, police will use their own discretion up to a certain point however it's not the same with tax, you either owe it or you don't, there aren't any grey areas.

I think we are all basically saying the same thing, we are just arguing about different scales of it.
Yes, it pisses me off that someone can avoid paying tax because they can afford to pay some city lawyer to make the most of any tax loophole, however it also pisses me off people who say it's only little old plumber John (sorry plumber John  :)) doing a bit of cash work, he's not doing anyone any harm, bless him!!

I'd agree with almost all of that - just not the bit I have bolded.  There are a lot of grey areas that a lot of tax professionals profit from.  Alongside all of the good points made so far in this thread, a simplification of the tax code is one suggestion I would love to see acted on.  (Very difficult to act on in practice, though.)

If I could get away with not paying tax, I fucking would. Same as all the rest of you.

It took 2 whole pages to cut to the chase then.

Which is why they should focus in closing down the loopholes.

But that only hits them in the pocket. Why would they bother?

The man speaketh sense.

I've pretty much lost faith in all politicians, with them once again lowering the bar by blaming state of the economy on people paying bills with cash. Amazingly, though unsurprisingly, not a single minister has ever paid for anything in cash ever. Why they thought targeting the real workers and those at the bottom end of the pay scale with their latest attack is beyond me, they seem to have totally lost the plot.

The only glimmer of light I can see in politics is Boris Johnson who when asked the same question said "I've certainly paid a lot of cash in hand." He might be a bit of a twat and I don't agree with everything he comes out with but at least he is honest and genuine. I'd happily have him as Prime Minister, especially as we'd all have a laugh as the country turns to shit.

They should probably look to recoup Vodafone's £6bn before bleating on about plumbers not paying tax on cash payments.

Obviously most people would avoid tax if possible, and as such, any loopholes should be closed. It just irks when they turn a blind eye to dubious big business accounting and the offshore stuff despite many conclusive reports that it's costing the country trillions, in order to focus on small traders and the self-employed, which in all honesty, wouldn't really make much difference.

If you think UK politicians are slimy, try the Irish version.

We have on TD (MP) who has admitted fraudently side-stepping over 2m worth of VAT on his business, who has refused to resign and has just waited the media storm to blow over - as it always does.

The previous month a garlic importer was jailed for 7 years for evading VAT.

We have a huge number of TDs who have been overpaid on their pensions refusing to pay it back cos they cant afford to!

As unbelievable as it sounds, since the inception of the Irish State only ONE TD has ever resigned - and that was a conscience resignation.

Not one has ever resigned or been forced from office despite numerous fraud and corruption scandals.

It truly beggars belief

Cheeky  :D

FWIW VAT is a wholly regressive, ridiculously bureaucratic tax that not only hits the poorest the hardest, hinders growth but essentially turns our nation in to unpaid tax collectors. Not only that it's an EU tax - a condition of our membership of which they take a slice - a classic case of 'taxation without representation'. As far as I'm concerned anyone who manages to avoid it good on them and I'm certainly not going to take any lectures from MPs on morals when they quite happily rip off expenses and spend hard-earned taxpayers' money on a whim.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2177099/Speaker-John-Bercow-charged-taxpayers-624-limo-ride-breathless-night-wife-seaside-resort.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Fuck 'em

My views exactly. Tory MPs are invariably hypocritical arsewipes of the highest order. The country is in the shit, corporations and rich people evade tax any way they can. The solution - lets hit the common working man. There is a big difference between tax avoidance on those who are worth millions and those who might be trying to keep their heads above water. 

On a slightly unrelated point Bercow's bloody missus really pisses me off

staunchly il partito nazionalista fascista for me...........albeit on the wishy washy liberal wing

I'm happy to pay cash-in-hand to any tradesman if it means getting a bit of discount in return. If he is avoiding tax by not declaring it, fucking fair play to him.

We should all pay a bit of tax and I dont have any problem contributing my bit for the common good.

Trouble is, the national interests / common good got shat upon years ago. All governments just want more and more in tax and look after each other first and foremost.

The list is waaay too fucking long to spell out here, but we all know we're fucked up the arse everywhere we go with ever increasing airport taxes, VAT, betting taxation, PAYE, NI contributions, road tax etc etc - all of which go into central coffers, NOT where we all think they should go.

Regardless of political beliefs, religion or morality, most of us instinctively know that we're being fucked when it comes to taxation, so where is the problem with us ordinary people doing deals with each other that benefit us and keep the thieving cunts in Whitehall at arms length?

Look at it another way; If, say you were going to paint your house yourself, the government wouldn't get any tax or VAT from you for your labour, would they?

So where is the problem if you pay someone in cash to do it for you while you go and earn some money doing whatever you do for a living? The painter gets some cash and doesn't pay tax on it, you get your house painted with a bit of a discount and the Revenue sit and swivel like they would of done had you painted the house yourself in the first place.

Cash usually ends up getting spent locally anyway as it cant be used to buy capital (traceable) items like houses or cars, so your community benefits.

More than one person on here has intimated that the Conservatives are somehow worse than the other lot. Fuck me, there's some severe memory loss about!  Labour politicians were no different when they were in charge.

from bad to worse

The problem I think we have in this country is people's apathy they'll moan about the government all day long, but will do nothing to improve the situation themselves. Somone else'll sort it attitude accomplishes fuck all. If there were to be a general strike called tomorrow most people would just stay at home and watch jermey kyle or some other shit. Where were all the protesters when the fuel prices went over £1.20?

If a general election was called tomorrow I'd be voting for the monster raving looney party at least we'd know what we'd expect from them.

As for the low turn out in elections couldn't they change the day we voted to a Saturday? It would also be nice to see some politician's actually keep the promises they've made.

Turnout isn't affected because of which day, it's low because the vast majority of voters think their vote makes no difference and the choices available are all the same. That won't be solved by moving the day they voted.

A good example is the referendum on the local budget by Bristol in 2001 held midweek, which attracted a higher turnout than local elections.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/feb/15/uk.education

If people think their vote can effect real change they will turnout regardless of the day.