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This may show that I cant be arsed with premiership football but this kids just been picked for the England squad.  Who the hell is he?  Is he good? 

And Jay Bothroyd as well.

Wouldn't know either of them if they roasted me in a rohypnol fuelled romp.

Henderson plays for Sunderland, really highly rated and being chased by United and City.

Bothroyd plays for Cardiff. How he's been picked ahead of the likes of Agbonlahor i don't know.

On a brighter note, with Carroll's inclusion, will it open the Under 21 door for Charlie?

During the World Cup I composed an overlong post on the immediate future of the English national team.

I'll stick to my guns. England's immediate future ain't bright.

[Awaits a plucky 2-0 victory over France]

As much as I agree with your sentiment, Aggy is in the squad too isn't he. Davies isn't though.

Absolute joke of a squad mind

Henderson is a quality player i actually have a bit of respect fro capello doing this

When and why are we playing France, is it a build up to a Euro qualifier or a meaningless friendly?

Jordan Henderson is having a decent season. But we have got no depth, nothing that can compete against the moder super-powers anyway.

That's what the german public thought when they introduced these no name players.

Jay Bothroyd cannot be compared to the German youngsters who play for established Bundesliga outfits.

DRS, I'm all for Henderson's inclusion and I am desperate for Capello to look towards 2012.

In fact if he wants to be brave and develop young players add Albrighton, Jones, Rodwell, Cahill, Jarvis, Sturridge, Wellbeck, Onouha, Forster and Cattermole on top off
Carroll, Henderson, Smalling, Wilshere and Gibbs, and lets start using friendlies to develop a team and give young players with a future at the top some much needed experience.

Or we could pick a nearly 30 Championship striker.

To be fair Rich i was mainly talking about Henderson, i havn't seen the squad has he included Albrighton?

I like Jordan Henderson, I just don't think it bodes well for England. No Albrighton but he can't be far off.

Chris Smalling has two league appearances this season: he's in!

Phil Jones should be ahead of Smalling.

Personally I wouldn't pick anyone who isn't going to be in contention for the WC in 2014.

What's the point in picking Bothroyd, or even Davies. Give the experience to young players who may have a future right at the top. Davies might be in and around the squad for a year or two, but that year or two experience could go to a young player and we could build a talented young side with 4 years international experience under their belts come 2014.

England squad for the international friendly against France at Wembley on Wednesday, November 17:

Foster (Birmingham), Hart (Man City), Green (West Ham); Gibbs (Arsenal), Cole (Chelsea), Terry (Chelsea), Jagielka (Everton), Lescott (Man City), Richards (Man City), Ferdinand (Man Utd), Smalling (Man Utd); Walcott (Arsenal), Wilshere (Arsenal), Young (Aston Villa), Gerrard (Liverpool), Barry (Man City), Johnson (Man City), Milner (Man City), Henderson (Sunderland); Agbonlahor (Aston Villa), Bothroyd (Cardiff), Carroll (Newcastle), Crouch (Tottenham).

Cheers Batch,some strange ones in there. See what is being said about Davies but would rather him than crouch at the moment. 

Jay fucking Bothroyd.

Says it all doesnt it?

Henderson and Carroll i can understand, but Chris fucking Smalling?

Dear oh dear

Jay Bothroyd but no Charlie Austin?

Me too. And I would rather see Championship players, who will likely give a fuck, than a team full of premiership players who couldn't care less. Although being completely honest, I actually don't care that much anyway.

Chris Smalling ahead of Phil Jones is the baffler, I quite like Bothroyd for the message more than the actual player.

I thought that about Jones but he has been playing midfield this season hasn't he.

I used to have the same attitude as Barry in regards to selecting players who 'would care'.

To be honest I don't anymore because I dare say the attitude of the 2nd tier professional footballer is no different to a Premier League footballer! Plus I like the summer competitions so why should we waive our participation because we don't like attitude of our most gifted?

Problem is our most gifted pool of players is rapidly drying up.

Capello isn't picking the likes of Bothroyd because he's sending out a message. It's because he's got no choice!

Plus: BRING BACK THE 'B' INTERNATIONAL!

I couldn't believe it when I was told Bothroyd was in the team. I actually thought I was being had.

Has it really got that bad that we have had to go to Jay Bothroyd. Jesus Fucking christ.

always surprised by this attitude. agreed, no real strikers coming through BUT

albrighton, phil jones, jordan henderson, wilshere, adam johnson, chris smalling...

the u19s and u17s have both won tournaments at expense of the likes of germany and spain in the last year.

once capello goes, we'll be decent.

I'm glad you pulled me up on this one because I'm more than happy to elaborate for you Juddie (just to give you a little bit more insight).

Firstly, I'm not dramatically pessimistic about the English national team. I support them but more importantly I want them to do well!

Many pundits and fans are pointing towards the German national team as a figure of hope as England look to move on from the non-starter Golden generation which (we're told) offered us great hope.

My fear is that no matter how much potential the players you have mentioned are within our nation (and they are genuine hopefuls), are they really up to the world stage? You can't judge a player within the odd game here and there when their bosses feel Vidic, Essien or Yaya Toure need a day off.

For me this is what it's about and this is why I fear for the immediate future of the England squad.

The Germans do offer hope but we don't play football or coach youths in the same way as they do in Germany.

Mesut Özil went to the World Cup with only 4 caps but over 100 top flight appearances.

Manuel Neuer went to the World Cup with only 5 caps but over 100 top flight appearances.

Sami Khedira went to the World Cup with only 5 caps but four seasons of regular top flight football.

Thomas Müller went to the competition with only 2 caos had a good debut season with Bayern and was rewarded for his efforts by earning a place in the World Cup squad. His form continued into the summer. Joachim Löw wasn't taking a punt, he was applying common sense!

I could go on.

Add them to the mix of young yet veteran international footballers such as Bastian Schweinsteiger and Lukas Podolski and you've got yourself a team!

What Germany have done through Joachim Löw is no fluke. They have worked on this over the years and could win another World Cup or another European Championships as a result of it.

However, our national time have remained too loyal to it's big names. Now our big names are getting older and we're being forced to select players with minimal top flight experienced (unlike the Germans who look after their future by playing them regularly!)

You cannot compare our hopefuls to the quality of player that Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, Germany and even the French can produce.

England's problem has always been playing as a team and having the right balance. It doesn't matter who plays if we can't get this right when it matters.

I agree Si Pie. As we all know, Jack Charlton didn't play in '66 because he was the best player, he played because he worked within Ramsey's plans.

However, our game isn't dictated by that sort of thinking. It's dictated by money-men and busybodies who insist on who plays or in many cases who don't play.

You could have Mourinho in charge but his hands would be tied. Just like the rest of them.

It's alright now. Carlton Cole has been drafted into the squad.

Phew :)

I'm with Si Pie as well.

We never pick the best team, always the best players - the Gerrard and Lampard debate for example. We need a manager with the balls to stand up to the players and the media, who will pick the best team.

It's bollocks going on about Germany. They're happy to use foreign players and we're not. I don't think they're as good as people make out either, we'd have beaten them if that goal had been given - we were all over them at that point.

Without wishing to dwell on this I feel obliged to reply.

RE: Germany, I was going on media and fan talk. We had Germany on the ropes for about 5 minutes in the first half, that's it. We were woeful that day. Plus they've finished 3rd in the last two World Cups and were Runners-Up at the last Euros... Not too shabby.

I would argue that you're wrong regarding "They're happy to use foreign players and we're not".

Podolski, Trochowski and Marin all moved to Germany when they were toddlers and Klose when he was 7. I'd consider myself German too had I been brought up in the nation the overwhelming majority of my life.

For me Cacau was the only debatable figure in that squad as he only became a German citizen in 2009. But even he had played his entire football career in Germany.

In the next coming decades we're going to start seeing plenty of surnames in our national team that are not typically British but they'll be as English as you and me.

...the world game is always evolving so perhaps we should go with the flow for once?

Sure Germany do well at tournaments, I just don't think it's got anything to do with them having a higher quality of players. The difference is their mentality and that they play a team rather than individuals.

With regards to eligibility, I take it you think Ryan Giggs should have played for England as he moved here when he was 6? I'm sure there are plenty of other players you could apply the same logic with, especially if you're basing it on what country they've played all or the majority of their careers - which will be English for most.

Germany use the rules to their advantage in a way we don't, partly due to their desperation to succeed in tournaments. Whether it's right or wrong is a different matter, but it does give them an advantage over us.

If Ryan Giggs considered himself an Englishman (which he didn't) then why can't he play? That's his choice and who are we to tell them otherwise?

Plus that example is a little bit more complex because we are within a United Kingdom. A Welsh or Scottish family can move to Wiltshire and still keep their national/cultural identity. You move a kid from Somalia to England when they are 2 years old and later they will struggle to identify themselves with their country of origin because it's completely different to England.
 

Heck half of West Wiltshire fly the English flag during football World Cups but when the 6 nations start they don their Welsh rugby shirts.

I'm fairly certain Podolski was capped when he was playing in the second division and that the Poland manager didn't rate him.

In fact I think if Poland were quicker off the mark they could have got Klose too, I'm sure he said if they were quicker off the mark he'd have played for them.

Same with Trochowski but it's all hindsight isn't it? Sure, Klose is going to say "well, it's your fault. I was willing!" given the relationship between the two nations.

None of these players linked-up with the German national team with guns to the heads.

Hahahahahaha.

Jay Bothroyd.

Should have watched him today - then all your question would have been answered.

I did.  But frankly Im hungover and extremely tired.  I didn't really notice what was happening.  Was he good then?

There are plenty of examples of players playing for England who were not born here.  We've done that discussion before.

The technical quality of our players has been poor for decades and is combined with a more recent seeming lack of desire to even play for England.  How many bloody players have announced their retirement from International football, players who weren't even the best we have.  Certainly seems the in thing to do in the modern game.

I may be wrong but isn't the big difference that all the England players born elsewhere qualified from birth, whilst none of the German players did - they all got German passports later in life for varying reasons.

I think our FA has stated very recently that they won't allow players qualifying through residency or similar to be selected, seem to recall there being some unwritten rule between the home nations saying the same thing as well.

The bottom line is that our players are nowhere near good enough. They're good at attracting salaries but not much else. How many of our top players have gone abroad and done well. How many of our players could play for top Spanish or Italian sides. If you picked a World XI none of our lot would get anywhere close to the top 5 World XI sides.
Apart from the technical deficiencies of the average player there is also the fact that mentally our players are shite when they pull on the England shirt.
The other problem is that we think the Prem is the best league in the World - it is for wages and excitement but technically its bollox and an average foreign player can look good here if they can handle the physical aspect of our game.
Basically as a nation we're totally fucking delusional about our status and that of our players.

Put it this way, he bossed the midfield for Sunderland against the current Premiershit champions and runaway leaders.

Premiershit. Haha. Funny.

I don't think quite so many are as delusional as they once were. It will take a long time for me to give a fuck again and I know I'm not alone. I, currently, would take a huge amount of pleasure in watching us get dicked repeatedly for years and failing to do anything in any tournament. I take pleasure in knowing how much I hate them. I'm amused by their failure and wish more of it upon them.

I hate the FA, the premier league, the players and the whole tabloid celeb fest that comes with it. (Jesus, I sound like the miserable cunts who sit around the CG throwing random insults and getting annoyed at nothing. :) )

well, you can, because we keep beating them.

I won't argue with anyone anout the actual senior team. we pick the wrong players, the coach isn't the right man for the job etc etc, I have no arguments there.

But anyone who bangs on about the future being bleak is lazy, because you'll find out development coaches are actually doing a good job and there are good players coming through. The point is that the 17s and 19s are beating the italy's/germany's/spains, the problem is at senior level - where we keep picking the same cnuts who have had their chance and blown it.

why not play hart, henderson, jones, adam johnson, keiran gibbs, gary cahill, wilshere, carroll, sturridge... they wouldn't have done any worse at the world cup.

THE LAST 11 POSTERS ON THIS THREAD COULDN'T HAVE DONE ANY WORSE

GK nash > Glen johnson!

Yeah juddie, barry, darkprince, nmh, chalkie, jonny, RobT, GK, DV, DMR and Rich.

Could not have done worse.

To be fair, RobT probably would've done a better job. He can actually play football.

Not DV though, he's shit.

I'd have to go in goal at least I'd fill it.

I used to be famous for my Chris Waddle like runs down the right wing.

That'd usually last 20 minutes before I lapsed back to right back before ending up in goal as the fitness waned.

Now you waddle down the right wing like you have the runs?

Have we met?  because you've got it bang on!

  :D

Sorry, I've retired from International football.

I've also retired but will come out of the retirement to go to the world cup, play shit and retire again.

I'm more than happy to see Capello giving these opportunities. I certainly don't subscribe to the "I've never heard of him so he's not good enough" attitude which has been floating around at the moment.

I will however "bang on" about how completely irrelevant youth football is when judging the future. We've been here before haven't we? We are fortunate that Ipswich haven't cashed in on Conor Wickham at the moment because he's playing competitive games.

I lean towards our domestic game being the problem more than anything. Andre Wisdom at Liverpool, I've seen him play he's a big lad for his age with great potential but will be given a proper chance? Or will be sent out on loan so times that he settles for a permanent move to Sheffield United?

I don’t want to be called ‘lazy’ so I go lengths to state my point.

Under-17’s.

3rd in 2002: WAYNE ROONEY, Wayne Routledge, Gary Borrowdale
4th in 2003: James Milner, Aaron Lennon, Tom Huddlestone.
4th in 2004: Mark Noble, Frazier Campbell
GS in 2005: THEO WALCOTT,
DNQ in 2006:
2nd in 2007: Victor Moses
DNQ in 2008:
GS in 2009: Jack Wilshire, Jose Baxter
1st in 2010: Conor Wickham

Look how in consistent the youth game is at U-17 level over the years? Second in 2007, couldn’t even qualify in 2008 and winner in 2010!

It’s no coincidence for me that the bigger names you see there were playing first team football shortly afterwards. THIS IS WHAT MUST HAPPEN for these players to develop. All hard work by these youth coaches with both domestic and international football will be completely undone unless they are given opportunities! It’s no coincidence that these new youngsters (other than Arsenal) are from Premier League filler teams like Sunderland, Blackburn, Newcastle and Bolton.

UNDER-19

GS in 2002: Jermaine Jenas, Carlton Cole, Dean Ashton, Glen Johnson, Jermaine Pennant.
GS in 2003: Stewart Downing, Wayne Routledge, Liam Ridgewell
DNQ in 2004:
2nd in 2005: Mark Noble, Dexter Blackstock, Grant Leadbitter, Lee Holmes
DNQ in 2006:
DNQ in 2007:
GS in 2008: Kieran Gibbs, Scott Sinclair, Daniel Sturridge, Victor Moses, Tope Obadeyi
2nd in 2009: Danny Welbeck, Nathan Delfouneso, Nile Ranger
S-F in 2010 Nathan Delfouneso, Frank Nouble

These are the biggest names within this squads NOW (plus Swindon links), I don’t even know if these are the players who had the most hype back then. It doesn't make great reading really unless there is some dramatic change of form at club level (there is plenty of time though). There are some undoubtedly decent players in there but not close to the standard that’s needed.

Under-21’s

GS in 2002: Gareth Barry, Paul Robinson, Jermaine Defoe, Scott Parker, Alan Smith, Peter Crouch
DNQ in 2004:
DNQ in 2006:
S-F in 2007: Scott Carson, Leighton Baines, Gary Cahill, Ashley Young, James Milner
2nd in 2009: Theo Walcott, James Milner, Kieran Gibbs, Adam Johnson

Gloriously inconsistent.

To be honest I'm not going to pretend like I know what the future holds but the one thing I do know is that the youth game is typically inconsistent. For every decent achievement the BBC or FourFourTwo magazine latch onto and give us hope there are 3 or 4 barely reported disastrious campaigns that we don't want to talk about!

If the Premier League are willing to take the gamble, progress can be made.

I retire and not a mention of another nation.

so the 17s win in 2010, the 19s reach the semis in 2010 and the 21s second in 2009. and the future's bleak?

think you've just answered your own question. I'm not talking about previous tournaments, I'm talking about our teams now, they're winning , so what do we do to maintain that?

they have beaten the world's best already.

the trick is for them all to play regular football, and for the clubs to release them so they get regular tournament football when they come around, something that hasn't happened in the past before.

we need to ensure they keep winning... the u17s are considered the best team to have come through for some time. it'll be interesting to see how the fa, and the  respective clubs, deal with them.

looks like we may be agreeing to disagree rich!

We've always had decent young players, as I imagine a lot of countries do, but something seems to go wrong with a lot of them and they lose their way and never repeat it at full cap level. What is the best way to move them forward?

Take Alex Henshall. If he was still with us, even if just back on loan, he'd most likely be a part of our first team squad and would have made a few appearances from the bench - maybe even a start or two. Instead he's training at Man City and playing reserve or youth team games, albeit with better facilities and better coaches.

Which way is best? Sure it depends on the player but you can't help but think that too many young players don't get enough competitive games and they should be going out on loan to lower division clubs more. This is something the FA and leagues could do something about by enforcing reduced squad sizes regardless of the players age.

Yeah. I wasn't trying to change your mind though.

I enjoyed that, nothing like a bit of a discussion.

everyone loves a mass debate.

Lords knows, I've had three today already.

Isn't the main difference with us the focus in youth on competitive football, at any level?  I may be wrong, but I thought that some of the other countries success comes as a result of their youth being developed technically, with little interest in competitive stuff until they reach 1st team ability.  Even then, their leagues tend to be less competitive than we demand in the English league.

Our approach is that by making everyone play 11 a side proper matches all the time, that makes them more.....competitive.  What it does, in my opinion, is bread a winning attitude but misses the opportunity to make them good players.  The other nations have a lot of technically good players, then make a squad out of them and bread winning by being good.  It's not hard to learn how to stand in the right position, much harder to make consistent passes with your wekaer foot etc.

Dunno, maybe it's bollocks, but it just seems we demand mini premier league players even at under 11's.  Sure, stick them in lower league 1st team action and they'll be better players for our leagues, ut neither leaviong them in youth football or 1st team football will make much difference if the previous 10 years have not educated them technically.

Four.