Thetownend.com

Ive listened and watched and its brought a tear to my eye.

The Minister for Sport has taken a bit of a hammering though.

There a documentory on the History channel tonight on ther Hilsborough disaster, I think there is also one in ITV2, one of them I suspect is worth watching.

What's that got to do with Hillsborough?

Very moving - first time I've been able to understand Dalgleish as well which was a surprise.


What record will be No. 1 in two weeks time then?

I cant watch things about this without crying - and I have a heart of stone normally

I remember sitting watching it happen on the TV and panicing as I knew my dad was out at a football match but didnt understand he wouldnt be at Hillsborough thank the lord

oops wrong thread

This is all very very sad and owt, but why do other football tragedys not get the same coverage i.e bradford. I'm not saying the coverage hillsbrough has been getting is unwarranted, just perhaps a little disproportionate

I dont fully understand the compelxites of the whole situation but I believe its probably because the Yorkshire Police never accepted any responsibilty for what happened and the victims families have been lied to and fobbed off ever since.Also if you give a Scouser a cause like this they (rightly) dont let go.If my 14 year kid died at footy match id be inclined to keep fighting for justice as well.

One things for sure it changed football in this country forever.

A few days ago I watched a video of a European Cup semi final (AC Milan v Real Madrid) held a few days after Hillsborough during which they stopped the game after 6 minutes (when the Hillsborough game was stopped) to hold a minutes silence then about halfway through the silence the fans started singing You'll Never Walk Alone.

I cried like a baby for about 15 minutes and was still visibly shaken an hour or so later.

For all the shit that goes on in football, its good to know that at the end of the day all football fans around the world come together at times like that and put their differences to one side (even if only for 60 seconds). Kind of restores your faith in the world.

Partly because it was the worst stadium disaster in Britain and partly because unlike Bradford etc, it was a watershed in terms of how football and it's stadia changed.

I have no intentions to get bogged down in a pointless debate - but a disaster is a disaster if it's 50 dead like in Bradford or 90 dead like in Sheffield. So I agree with David's sentiments.

...and then there is Heysel - another truly preventable disaster that is swept under the carpet a little bit.

Young, innocent people died in these events which is heartbreaking regardless.

Anywho, the memorial was very well done.

I watched the liverpool fc channel all afternoon, i blubbed like a baby, truley horrific images, lets face it, anyone who is old enough to remember terracing on the scale of hillsborough knows that it could have easily have been them.

Did anyone see the poems programme after the service, strong as fuck, really emotional stuff.

A fair point.

I've been to Hillsborough a number of times, and stood on the Kop there when it was so packed that you could hardly get a view of the game, and at no time was it actually dangerous.

In fact the worst conditions I have actually ever had on a terrace was in our Simod Cup game at Luton.

The biggest problem with the Leppings lane end at Hillsborough was the side fences, as that meant that the crowds could not disperse over the entire width of the terrace.

If you watch footage from that day you could see big gaps in both of the side pens at the Liverpool end.

There were a number of critical mistakes made that led to the tragedy, but one simple action would have prevented it all, and that would have been to close the tunnel behind the central pens.

I'm sure that many things have happened in our lives during the last 20yrs,but i can remember 15th April 89,
as if it were yesterday.

It was a lovely sunny spring day and we were at home to Watford.We were pushing for the play offs  under
Lou and our end of season form took us there.

I was standing on the Shrivvy Rd terraces and a couple of guys with a radio,said about 20 mins into our game,
that the semi final at Hillsborough had been delayed due to crowd trouble.There was some laughter from them
and a few comments.A little bit later,a guy behind me said,"It's far more serious".At halftime it was announced
over the tannoy,that the match a Hillsborough had been abandoned.

When i got into my car,it was only then the full extent of the tragedy dawned on all of us.I had a long drive
home in the sunshine,but i felt numb and empty at the news from Hillsborough.I remember the BBC's
Peter Jones's report.Mike Ingham a few years later,said that Jonesy had to witness Heysel and then
Hillsborough and that a little bit of Jonesy died that day.One year later,almost a year to the day
Peter Jones passed away.

When i got home,i had to go out into my town for something and i walked past the local fishmonger.
In a tray at the front, there was a Liverpool scarf with a black ribbon around it.It was so poignant.

No true football fan for one minute would belittle the tragedies at Ibrox,Bradford or Heysel,but Hillsborough
was a defining moment for football and supporters in this country.Ninety six football fans went to a match
that saturday and never returned home alive.

Agreed, it was just a comment that Hillsborough is treated differently because of its legacy - it changed football, Bradford didn't. It's not a reflection that those who died at Hillsborough are 'more important' - every death is a tragedy and heartbreaking as you say

Hooligans caused Heysel...they also caused Hillsborough as all the fences were erected to prevent them invading pitches to do battle.
My abiding memory is watching police and fans trying to pull the solid metal fencing down...as it happens many more would have perished if they had succeeded with the cush forward.
If memory serves me right one of the dead was from Fairford....a sad sad day it was.

What AlanMayes said to the word.  I too was on the Shrivvy, I too remember the initial casual indifference, and then the anxious hurry back to the car for Peter Jones.

I remember so much as if it was yesterday: the long, silent drive home; the need that night to get out and find out that Witney's scousers were safe and home; reading the papers in the library on the Monday morning until I was numb.  The Sun, The fucking Sun.

The weeks that followed were so emotional.  Everything, whether personal or national, seemed so intense.  Liverpool's return in the friendly at Celtic Park and then the replayed semi-final against Forest (I'd pulled the night before and got up too late for the lunchtime kick off.  I was gutted).  A double decker of pissed students singing "You'll Never Walk Alone".  And, as well as anything, I remember buying Doolittle on the Saturday morning, but not having the will, the energy or interest to even play it for over a week.  Even the fucking Pixies must wait.  Small things of great magnitude.  

I remember watching Swindon at St Andrews on the next(?) Tuesday night - should all football, life, stop or do we just get on with it?  The players walked out together during the silence and I can still hear the sound of studs on concrete as they came down the tunnel.

Just thinking about it makes me want to weep buckets.  Of course it could have happened to any of us (Croke Park once and being lifted off my feet, powerless, and swept onto the perimeter track at Highbury - no fences! - for me).  But it didn't.  It happened to them.

This has been a poignant and well observed week, but what strikes me from the recollections is how bitterly divided this country was 20 years ago to the point that, the old bill and Thatcher could habitually treat working class football fans as scum and get away with it.  There has, rightly, been much attention on how football changed as a result of 15th April 1989 - but maybe it was also a watershed in nudging us towards a more cohesive, progressive society as well.

Very sad indeed.

Retract you statement did we 4d? It's okay to have an opinion you know.

I know, but I am sensitive to other peoples views. :-X

I too was on Shrivvy Road that day and alanmayes' account is pretty much spot on. Good post.
Also, i've been lifted off my feet and have struggled for breath enough times at football to know just how horrific Hillsborough must have been. All very sad.
However, what is really fucking me off though is that Liverpool fans themselves seem reluctant to shoulder any blame whatsoever. We all know there were a number of factors at work that day but they blame every other fucker and do not acknowledge their own part in it. Every one of those Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and forced their way into the ground has as much blood on their hands as the Old Bill and emergency services.

I was briefly reading the Taylor Report yesterday, and by that a similar incident happened in the '81 Cup semi between Spurs and Wolves, where some Spurs fans were crushed and had suffered broken legs and arms, and the police had reported that the capacity had to be reduced in the Leppings Lane stand...but nothing was done.

In the 80's, all the police were worried about was preventing hooliganism, and didn't care about the ordinary football fan.

After Hillsborough, it all changed, with the advent of all-seater stadiums in top flight games and most importantly the removal of fences. It also changed the way of policing football matches in the UK. I just wish European police forces would take note.

Melksham Red should do the same.

Taylor concluded that Liverpool fans were not to blame and that there was capacity to accommodate all those still outside the ground trying to get in if only the police had closed off access to the central pens after opening Gate C. In addition, he says crowd monitoring was inadequate and that the layout of the crush barriers in Pen 3 afforded less protection than it should.

Justice for the 96.

If you've got a few hours, read this :

http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

I am not doubting you but if many of the supporters outside did not have tickets (alledgedly) how on earth could there have been capacity inside the ground for them.
Having seen footage recently most of the ground appeared to be packed solid.

Justice for the 96.

Most of those outside were not ticketless, they had been held up by unscheduled roadworks on the M62. There was capacity in the side pens, it was the central pen that became overcrowded and where the crush developed

Whatever. It's just my opinion, that is all. And that opinion is that IN PART the fans are also to blame. Yorkshire Old Bill have admitted their guilt, so too have other parties. Like I said there are many factors and I have as much sympathy as anyone, I am a footy fan after all.
What justice do people want? Nothing will bring the 96 back.

 The Burnden Park tragedy of 46, gets overlooked, basically 33 people were asphixiated to death, when too many people gained entrance to the terrace by illegal means.  The players went off while the dead and injured (500) were cleared and then they got on with the game.

I suppose directly after WWII, they had a slightly different idea of what constituted a disaster...many of those who got in were ex servicemen, recently demobbed.

The official Home Office report didn't specifically blame Bolton or the police, but recommended they make improvements to turnstiles and barriers at Burnden and capacities were reduced across the country.

Your opinion ignores all the available evidence, but don't let that dissuade you. While such opinions continue to be widespread, even after 20 years and despite the unequivocal nature of the Taylor Report's conclusions, there is reason for the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to continue its fight.

I would like to include one quote from the Taylor Report if I may: "It is a matter of regret that at the hearing, and in their submissions, the South Yorkshire Police were not prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault for what occurred. Mr Duckenfield, under pressure of cross-examination, apologised for blaming the Liverpool fans for the deaths. But, that apart, the police case was to blame the fans... Such an unrealistic approach gives cause for anxiety as to whether lessons have been learnt. It would have been more seemly and encouraging for the future if responsibility had been faced."

Justice for the 96.

So by 'justice' do you/they mean an apology or prosecuation or both?

The football authorities should have taken more responsibiliity in the preceeding decade in what was happenning to grounds and the effect it had on ordinary supporters. In doing nothing to solve the problem of hooliganism, other than allowing the Police to move match days supports around like animals and then caging them in with fences and barbed wire - Ken Bates at Chelsea, Sports Ministers gaining favour with voters. etc.

Hooligan Fans of that period also take the blame by running riot, causing a very agressive government and Police to react the way it did.

All of these factors just componded the events and errors that ocurred on the day, delayed traffic, openning the gate to ease the crush outside, not shutting off the central tunnel, beleving it was crowd trouble, not letting in more ambalances into the ground etc etc, led to innocent pewople losing their lives.

Either would be a step in the right direction. If I was directly involved, I'd probably want both.

They want a public enquiry, but I think it is a bit too late for that, as proved by how long it's taken in the Bloody Sunday inquiry (11 years and counting and costing £185m), all that happens is lawyers get rich. A public enquiry should've happened within a year of it happening, whilst it was all relative fresh in peoples minds.

Were the Liverpool fans to blame for the tragedy......Definitely not
Were they a contributing factor, of course.   
This would not have happened if they hadn't have all been there trying to get in. But lets be fair The Liverpool fans that were outside trying to get in were not acting as hooligans, or in fact in any manner differently than any other fans would have been acting

The thing is the Police & the FA had a responsibility to ensure the safety of all supporters at the game, and in this respect they FAILED, and as a result they should have owned up and taken responsibility for their actions.

One of the main reasons that the campaign is still on-going is that the authorities spectacularly failed to do this, and in fact tried (as they always do) to hide the truth & deflect the blame.

As has already been pointed out, the Police & Government at the time were always happy to point the finger of blame at Football fans, that's the way it was.
The problem for them in this case was that everyone could patently see that the fans were not ultimately responsible.

Were the fans even a contributing factor though - or is this police bollocks to try and hide their inept handling of a fairly "standard" situation (before the crush obviously)

The HSE when putting together their report after say that at MAXIMUM there were 10,124 people in that enclosure - the tickets sold were 10,100

So the suggestion that "hundred's if not thousand's of ticketless Liverpool fans turned up" is utter bollocks - another police tactic to throw the blame against the innocent fans.

The fact is that the police fucked up - purely and simply.  They let too many fans in the middle section, didn't close off the gate and therefore caused the problem !

John Motson was commentating that day on the beeb, and he even mentions the fact that the outside enclosures looked like they were far less crowded and actually had space.....

The reason the families want justice is because NO-ONE has ever even lost a days pay, let alone their jobs over this while they have lost loved ones....

They also believe, and have independant witness statements to back it up - that at 3.15pm a good number of the 96 were still alive, and with fairly simple medical aid would have lived.  This has NEVER been acknowledged by the authorities............

I'd always thought there was a large number of Liverpool fans without tickets that forced entry and that they played a very major role in what happened. But having read up on it recently this wasn't the case, even if there were fans without tickets it was a small number and they had no real effect.

It was a very long chain of events, starting a long time before that day, which led to what happened. The final fatal mistake being the failure of the police and stewards to close the two central pens and direct fans to the emptier side pens instead. If they'd have got that right there would have still been injuries and possibly fatalities but not on the scale that there was.

Not sure you can really ever attribute the blame to one person or party though.

Which is basically my point. There is no single party to blame and all who did help cause this tragedy should have the good grace to take some responsibilty.

I still remember asking my dad as a 7 year old boy if it was safe to go to Swindon anymore.

In those days we sat in the North Stand (Arkells Stand) and the Townend and Shrivenham Road was all terraced.

When I look at the footage on youtube of the actual day it's pretty damm scary how many people were packed on that terrace.

Out of interest, what did the Leppings Lane end hold back then? Must be about 15,000?

Just had a look on wikipedia.

It used to hold 22,000 !

It is now 11,000 all seated.

Ralphy - it held 10,100

The Health and safety Exec. state at the highest level there were 10,124 people in the end.....

So the police are saying 24 "ticketless" people caused this ???

Melksham - I agree with you that ALL that caused this tragedy should hold their hands up and hang their heads in shame - however the Liverpool fans were NOT in any way responsible for this and can hold their heads high with some dignity.....

No, this was your point:

"Every one of those Liverpool fans who turned up without tickets and forced their way into the ground has as much blood on their hands as the Old Bill and emergency services."

And any study of the facts of the day or the resulting Taylor Report would disprove it. No fans forced their way into the ground, the police opened the fucking gate! They even admitted it eventually, but not until their lies had taken hold, evidently.

Justice for the 96.

Thats still an immense terrace.

I'm not such a cunt as to not admit when i'm wrong. So, I stand corrected.

I'm not sure why, but I always seem more affected by the Bradford and Heysel disasters.  I am fairly sure (time often changes the minds view) that I watched the Heysel one unfold on live TV and I have watched recorded full coverage of the Bradford one and both are far more graffic I suppose.  I remember seeing the Policeman in the Bradford one, who was on fire after trying to save people from the stand.  Heysel was sickening because it was essentially caused by fans, even if not on purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrox_disaster 

Rangers have had there fair share of tragedys too reading this.

In the same post you are quoting and discrediting the same report.

Liverpool did have, and still have a reputation for jibbing. They pride themselves on it, just as they did a couple of years ago in Athens for the European Cup final, where they outfoxed the authorities to get thousands of extra people into that ground. Look at the FA Cup final in 1986, thousands of fans surging and crushing outside the turnstiles.

The fans outside the ground who caused that crush outside didnt have tickets. If they had tickets they wouldnt have been pushing together to create a situation where they could get in the ground. Its never the Scousers fault is it?  

The FA were deaf to the crushing of Liverpool fans in the semi final the season before. They knew they had a culture of trying to get in without tickets, and they still didnt give them the bigger Kop end. Stupid pens.

Yeah, the Police didnt care about the fans. They let people die, rather than take action. The people who died were innocent and no one has ever been prosecuted for ignoring fans being crushed to death.

Obviously just wish it had never happened. It has cast a massive shadow over the game for too long. If Liverpool fans had taken some responsibility for the ticketless fans who had caused crushing outside the ground, then maybe terracing wouldnt have taken such a hammering in the Taylor report? And then maybe football wouldnt have been butchered in the following 20 years?

Spencer, what the fuck do you think you are doing criticising scousers? You cunt!

Fucking hell Spencer, thought you'd be the last one to fall for the coppers'/Sun's smear stories. The build-up of fans outside the ground mainly consisted of fans with tickets arriving late because of unscheduled roadworks on the M62. Not because they didn't have tickets, not because they were drunken hooligans though there were probably some of both in the crowd, but the overwhelming majority were ordinary fans who arrived late through no fault of their own and couldn't get in to see their team play in an FA Cup semi-final for which they had bought tickets. That was what caused the build-up outside the ground, the subsequent crush inside the ground was caused by the police misinterpreting events outside as a ticketless hooligan charge, assuming the crush inside was hooligans trying to get on the pitch. And the smears have gone on ever since as those responsible in authority tried desperately to cover their own backs.

It was football culture at the time. They were very sophisticated at getting into games without tickets. There were/are lots of tricks. It was already a massive issue at the time (a football taboo), which is why no Liverpool fan would ever admit to being inside the Leppings Lane end without a ticket. And why the Sun wrongly pinned the blame on the fans. The vast majority of the blame still lies with the police. But there were ticketless fans in that end, because there were thousands who tried it on for every big Liverpool match in the 1980's.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A46309755

Sir Bagalot explains how it was in that post.

Maybe Im more cynical because I am the sort of scum who would try and get into a ground without a ticket? I went to Germany 2006 and never got near a game, but it didnt stop us thinking of ways to get into a match?

To be honest, Im still bitter about the Taylor report. The outcome of it really pinned the blame on the concrete stands, who couldnt protest their innocence. I think they went easy on the Police, because really they still partly blamed the fans (but had to bottle it, fearing public outrage from Merseyside, public outrage that had been stoked by the Sun). Because they went easy on the police it was the football grounds that eventually got most of the blame. They also said it could have been any club, but it was likely to happen to some clubs a lot more than others.

Its my opinion. Unfortunately its such a gut wrenching terrible tragedy that has scarred so many people that I dont think a real balanced report will ever come out. Too emotive for everyone, even now.

One other thing which struck me at the time, but may or may not have come out in 20 years of wash.  For the 88 Hillsborough semi, the police set up cordons in the streets around the ground, to ensure an orderly route to the turnstiles.  IF there were fans without tickets, they could get nowhere near the ground.  The match passed without incident. 

For 1989, thanks to the infinite wisdom of the South Yorkshire Police, there were no cordons.  We all know what happened next.

Amazing that after all these years people still persist in blaming Liverpool fans for what happened that day.When it was quite obviously a fuck up on a massive scale by the police.

To my mind Hillsborough was the ultimate consequence of the hooligan culture of the day,all fans,according to the police and authorities were animals who should be treated like scum and the outcome was 96 people being crushed to death,not to mention the people who were there that day who still suffer emotionally and physically.The families still campagining for justice will always have my support.No one has ever been offically held accountable for what happened that day and they are livid about it and fair play to them i say.

Hillsborough changed football in this country,i think mostly for the better.Something had to be done about the awful state of the grounds then,and unfortunately it took the deaths of so many people for that change to happen.The Taylor report didn't make football become the game it has since become,just helped to shape it for better or worse.I think the fact i can go to a game and know i'll come home again in one peice is fantastic tbh.Sky tv money is what really changed football not the Taylor report.

Vicious circle though Larwood, would sky have been interested in the brand if the taylor report had not happened. probably not

Not trying to stir things up, as don't know a great deal about things only what read on net and on TV over last few days.

One interesting fact that was raised on one of the programmes (not by the police I think, although I am happy to be corrected) was that the decision to open the gate which directly caused the disaster was taken due to a concern that due to crushing outside, supporters were being crushed against the walls and turnstiles with injuries being suffered and fears of fatalities. Therefore I wonder what could have actually been done to solve the problem when this stage was reached?

You can't really put everything down to their decision to open the gates, there was a sequence of events after that happened (and before) which all contributed to cause and make the problem worse - the decision to open the gates on its own wasn't necessarily the wrong one either.

Once they had opened the gate they didn't close off the central pens which were already full. The majority of the people going in through the open gates headed for the central pens and if they had been closed off things would have turned out differently.

Then the police failed to realise exactly what was happening until it was too late, incorrectly thinking it was crowd trouble rather than what it actually was. By the time the police and everyone else got organised and started doing something about it the damage had been done and it was too late.

Its well worth having a quick read of the Taylor report which details every factor that contributed to the disaster. Whilst the senior police officers in charge on the day made a number of bad and catastrophic decisions, there were plenty of other things that played a part both before and on the day itself.

If Hillsborough was the "ultimate consequence of the hooligan culture of the day" then you must surely agree that as Liverpool had one of the worst reputations in European football throughout the 80's (remember Heysel only 4 years previously?), and it was because of hooliganism that the OB treated football fans like scum, that they must accept some culpability over the events of that day?

Charles Itandje's a twat;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/17/charles-itandje-hillsborough-service-liverpool

I suppose thats one way to get a free transfer.

21 years today.

RIP.

I watched this on LFCTV earlier, and actually started balling my eyes out.

poofter

I hope you meant bawling.

One of the main reasons why it happened was because fans were then caged in Pens. There was now way out really as the pitches were fenced off. This was a result of the hooligan element which was rife at the time. Any aggro now is small beer compared with then. That combined with the police decision to funnel all fans through an open gate into the pens caused the problem. The taking down off the fences was a positive result of the Taylor report, but the elimination of terracing was a negative. Done properly terracing is/ would be less dangerous than putting loads of seats in the way for people to trip /  fall over.
Ticketing allocations have if anything though got even worse not better. In no way related, but Wembley is a disgrace at any major match just after half time.