Thetownend.com

....got a quick question about my work contract and wondered if anyone could help.

I signed a contract back in September....but my boss never signed it......

Does this make it invalid?

I know there are probably a million people who would be better to ask, but thought id try here first....

yes mate invalid im afraid

dont say im afraid....

so if I tell him to fuck off and I can walk out.....and he cant make me work my 3 months noticed and cant take me to court for breaking the agreement?

as far as im aware mate yes, although dont just take my word for it, talk to some other people first

well, my dads mate is a legal expert mumbo jumbo thing....I get mixed up with soclisiters and lawyers and all that....

what makes you so sure though, is it just a guess like?

Hopefully its not valid....so I can tell him to stick it.

It might depend on how long you've been working there, whatever your contract situation. If he wanted to get rid you, I'm sure you'd have some legal right to a notice period depending on how long you'd worked there, signed contract or not. I wouldn't be suprised if there was a similar thing with the shoe on the other foot.

Don't really know though. And you can always just leave anyway. Unless you're worried about a reference from him. In which case people can only refuse to give you a reference can't they? Not supposed to give bad ones.

Edit: That's all guesses though mate.

dan please tell me your 'boss' is who i think it is!?

the only problem is that u are the one wanting to leave and u are the one who signed the contract agreeing to the 3months notice etc.
although if your boss didnt sign it when he should have i thought have thought that makes him powerless to make u stick to the contract.

As I said, been there isnt september....and the notice period written in the contract is 3 months and to be honest.......I want out and I want out now....not 3 months later....now......if I do hand in my notice I'll be treated even worse than I am....because we'll ive seen it happen.

Reference, not bothered about wont put my boss down....plus he cant even type in english anyway so they wouldnt even take his reference seriously.

Thing im worried about is walking out them him taking me to court and not giving 3 months notice....as written in the contract that isnt actually signed....

Thing as, as far as I know.....all he can do is take me to court and make me pay him the 3 months I didnt work....which on the pittance I earn.....minus my expenses (all of which are out of pocket) and then days I wouldnt work (school holidays) he be taking me to court for very little money and the whole process would cost him more anyway.

I jsut want all my options checked.

http://www.acas.org.uk/

Get in touch with Acas they should be able to tell you. It's all free advice.

I'd think that as the employer gave you the contract and you agreed to it by accepting the employment, then the contract is effective, regardless whether the boss signed it or not.

From memory you don't even need a written contract, just a written statement of employment

the one and only....

I think it is if you have been on the books for so long it is legally binding.

My old place i never signed a contract, but because I had worked there for over so much time it was legally binding and had to work my notice.

Didnt fucking bother mind, handed it in at 2 and went home half hour later. Still got paid the weeks money too  8)

I think it may be enforceable Dan

linky (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?r.l1=1073858787&r.l3=1073971494&type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073791866&r.l2=1074428798&r.s=s)

Can you not negotiate the notice period or is he really that much of a cunt?

I'm not a legal expert, but from what I understand an employment contract has only to be issued not signed, the fact you've been paid since September is an acceptance of the agreement on both sides.

This is also true when there is no contract at all, after 3 months (I think) then the working conditions / hours etc you have worked and been paid for becomes the 'contract'. Hope that makes sense.

For starters, yes....

Secondly, obviously we have x amount of after school clubs and x amount of coaches and about 2 of those can drive.

So I walked out, he be screwed. He'd have no way of getting alot of his coaches to their after school plus he'd have no one to do my after school.

He'd make me do my usual job and give me all the shit ones on top because I was leaving.....and wouldnt let me go till he had a replacement....and the amount I do for him and the shit I put up with, well he isnt going to find a like for like replacement because no one can be as big a mug/walk over as I am.

I've never heard of people being taken to court for not filling out notice time. Is that likely to happen?

Also 3 months sounds like a long time if you've only been there 6months or so. Worth checking if there's a maximum they can demand, whatever the contract says.

If it helps it's illegal to give a 'bad' reference and if they have nowt good to say then all they can really mention is that you worked from such a date to such a date.

If you have any holidays left you could cash them in as part of the notice period.

Citizens advice?

paid holidays, not fucking likely!!!

0 holiday entitlement per year

mate you and i know how much of a sham it all is, and im sure deep down he does too.
you wont get your rewards for the work you do andi know, first hand, how much he piles on you.
honestly there would be zero legal threat from him if you left tomorow, he needs to understand he cant be such a cunt to everyone at all times.
surely you can imagine how unbearable those 3 months would be??
for me it's a no brainer- bite the bullet i say!

If you're full time then you have a legal minimum number of holidays, 'pro-rata-ed'

Like I said, its got alot better....purely because I've been put in charge of the 'office'

I do practically everything, organize everything, deal with the schools and coaches....the killer is the fucking driving. No petrol allowence either.

I've had my car just over 3 months, 6200 on the clock. Usually a good 70 quid on petrol a week.....these last weeks its been over double that.

He doesnt realise that all his staff leave because hes a twat of a cunt.....stupid thing is I know full well......that the minute he finds another mug who will do my job cheaper im out on my ass, regardless of the qualities I offer and what I've done for his business.

to him its all £££ he doesnt like because im Intelligent, I think logically, I think long term and I dont dive into things....he wants stupid monkeys who will do what they are told exactly how they are told.

If well and truely had enough.

im self employed, but contracted to work for my 'boss' I only work term time as we work in schools.....but if I want a day off I have to fill in the holiday form (of which we dont actually have one) about 4 weeks in advance and then the answer is still likely to be no.

One guy wanted a day off for a funeral and it was turned down, he then walked out and didnt come back...

Dan - if you have kept records of all your trips and the mileage, you can claim a 40p per mile allowance from the tax man, as long as it is business mileage and not to your 'office'.

yeah, but that comes off at the end of the finanical years doesnt it?

I only get taxed on  my profit if you like, not what I get paid....so if I get paid X and my work expenses are Y then I only get taxed on X - Y rather than X.

also if you are self employed you are not allowed to just work for one company are you?

You can take it off your taxable income in your self assessment.

It's very close to the tax year end as well (05 April 2008).

What are you 'expenses'? If you get some money for petrol/mileage you can actually claim the difference between this and the allowance back.

EDIT: I get what you're on about now.

Work out which gives you the most money - all of your travel expenses less the private element or the 40p per mile rate.

3 months notice?! I didn't think it could be that much anyway.

FWIW, i'd walk

Nope, because I only started working in September, I miss out this one...its not till Jan 2009....

fuck knows, all I know is I spend shit loads on petrol giving lifts to other people which they dont contribute to...

Prime example....friday.....my after school is Covingham....5 minutes walk from my house....30 seconds in the car....and it finishes at half 3.....the dream right? home nice and early....

.....no we have two clubs at covingham, so we have another coach who doesnt drive....so I have to pick him up from town....and drop him back...ok home by about 4 then....

get a text half way through my session, not asking....but telling me I have to pick another coach up in Stratton and another from West Swindon then drop then back to Bassett.....

So first coach at Stratton...im there at 4 he doesnt finish till 5.....then through town to west swindon then bassett...then home...its quater to 7 before I get in....

The Boss was coaching in North Swindon and went straight home after! by the time I got back to 'office' he was already in the pub....

good job, I was fucking fuming to say the least....

Just tell the cunt to stick his job up his arse and shit on his desk.

Job done.

good plan, the 'desk' doubles up as the kitchen table 'n all....

Surely if you're self-employed you shouldn't have a standard employment contract with this dude anyway? Shouldn't you're self-employment mini-bubble (bad use of words sorry) be contracted to perform certain services for his business. Like if you got a self-employed electrician or plumber in or something? Seems to me like theirs a mix up between different types of contract.

I'd like to add that I don't really know how these things work though, and am probably wrong.

me neither, and thats the problem....

Technically, he isnt my boss at all....

Im self employed and he is my client....and if I want out I terminate his contract and give him 3 months notice that I will no longer provide my services....and if he decided he no longer wants to be my client then he had to give me 3 months notice that he no longer requires my services...

however, he runs the place like he's the boss and talks down and shouts at his employees....

hell, the other week I went mental at him and he told me....no lie 'next time you'll disrespectful to me, I'll break your nose, its my right as your employer'

He likes to be the boss, makes him feel important....but he doesnt half talk shit

like i said earlier ben the self employment means u cant work for 1 employer, like u say for a plumber for instance, cannot work for 1 company all the time or they have to employ him through their company and de-register as self employed, if you are self employed and working for this bloke full time then u will both get in serious shit, they have really clamped down on this in the last year, its always been the law but pretty relaxed, not anymore tho

who is this cunt anyway?

if the law looked into his business, I'm willing to bet that would be the least of his problems.....

He owns a franchise, and the name have their own legal team and they put together the contract so somewhere somehow it must be legal....

I dunno the ins and outs.....but if I walk there is not alot he can do about it....as far as I can tell he can take me to court for 3 months wages which is peanuts and not worth the expense of the process.

The contract only runs from September to July.....so worst comes to worst I'll stick it out till then.....then im a free agent....can leave on a bosman!

Oh right so you're not really 'employed' at all. Ignore what I said about the mileage then  :|

I'd rather not say who he is, what the name of the business is etc etc.

because well, that could cause all sorts of shit.....but stroood certainly knows the ins and outs!

DV hes blatanly taking the piss out off u, hes got u working as self employed so he doesnt have to give u mileage and holidays etc yet he has you working as if u are employed full time within his company.

he has the best of both worlds and u have the worst of both

Only problem I can see is if he takes you to court it won't be over your pay, it will be his lost earnings by losing the sub-contractor (i.e. you).

Dan, I would talk to some advisor who knows what they are on about. A lot of legal advice is free, they only charge you if they act on your behalf (i.e. in court).

yup i know, im a bit of a twat for signing it all in the first place really....

but was expecting it to be better than it is.....but I do so much for so little and get treated like shit....its just not worth it anymore. My wages this month wont even cover my rent and petrol.

so, how does he prove he directly loses earnings without me? unless he has to cancel some clubs or some of his customers terminate their contracts then what can he lose?

paying for my replacement? taxis to get another coaches all around swindon?

to be honest, u shouldnt do all this taking other coaches here there and everywhere, surely thats not part of your job so refuse to do it and hopefully he will sack you

tried that the other week.....I went off on one....on a wednesday....one the way back we had two coaches in west swindon....because I had 3 people in my car and 3 sets of equipment I didnt have room for the 4th person and equipment, so someone else was going to pick him up.....however the other person got delayed and was late....i got back to the office, tired (been up since half 6) hungry and peed off....and because id drive near to the school this coach was left at....he asked me....why didnt you pick him up....I said I didnt have room in the car, he said he's been there for 45 minutes and you've drive past but didnt pick him up because you didnt want to squeeze him into your car, that pathetic, we're a team here...

how about you FUCK OFF *slams down equipment*

I was shouting at him

Im not a fucking Taxi

its written into your contract you have to drive

Does it say I have to be a Taxi for everyone else

yes, is says you have to drop people and pick them up

Oh really, does it really say that in my contract?

well, not worded like that

So it actually doesnt then

*he changes subject*

well if your stressed then maybe this job isnt for you

Maybe I dont want this fucking job

I go to walk out, past him, he pushes me and tries to get me in a head lock and I push him back....

and funnily enough then ive been doing the early morning clubs all week and sessions in cheltenham and beyond

I was hoping he'd sack me then

Sorry, Im ranting which wasnt the point of this thread...

Anything which isn't implied as one of your duties in your contract refuse to do.

And him pushing you and trying to put you in a head lock is probably grounds to leave anyway.

What are you actually contracted to do DV?

then again its not in your contract that u would be intimidated and threatened with violence by your boss

3 witnesses and all....

fuck it then mate, leave, if he takes action tell him u have 3 witnesses to the incident

You are self-employed working mainly for one guy.
You have signed a contract to say you would give three months to terminate the contract, he hasn't - therefore I cannot see how the contract is valid. It would be if you were PAYE.

honestly DV is there any positives in doing it?

me and M went through them once (he was in your boat with all the driving) and we honestly couldnt come up with any except maybe job enjoyment (i didnt really enjoy it that much and i bet you dont??)

M demanded plenty of clauses in a new contrat (plenty of petrol, days off, no breakfast club all that sort of shit) of course he wouldnt agree so he just walked.

he's rang me a couple of times asking when ill be back for easter/summer, but ill have a new motor by then so there is no chance ill go back.... he even wants me to do marketing full time at the end of my course  :shock:

he's an utter utter cunt and at times i honestly dont think i've ever met a more despicable individual.

just leave.

I enjoy some aspect of the job I must admit....

I couldnt cope with coaching kids all day everyday, I got bored being in an office all day every day.

On a good day, I go to work....do some office work with people I get on with and we have a good laugh and some banter (then from the other room you hear a deeply accented shout of 'how about you shut the fuck up and do some work') when we actually are.

Then out of the office in the afternoon, bit of fresh air, exercise, being active and on some occasions coaching kids can be great fun....

The job I dont mind (as in office work and coaching) its the extras, wages and driving and mainly the man himself.

As for marketing, ours is shit....I've made suggestions to improve it....but because it isnt his idea....or the way he's done it before its wrong  :roll:

on the contract front, if I last that long....

.....my plan is the same as M's....of course he wont agree, he'll get someone in cheaper than me....with less qualifications, someone new to all the schools and he'll start from scratch....like he always does.

Thing is D is thinking about doing the same thing, and he'd be fucked without him.

the staff turn over is stupid. I bet bar D all the people you worked with are long gone....

and you!!

i cant imagine the lapdog leaving.

You should ditch him, leave him screwed, then set up your own business doing what he does. Thiefing all his business away in the process.

I've read all of this and it annoys me.

I'd fuck the job off in the worst possible way i could think of, then go home put my feet up and feel thoroughly satisfied i've restored equilibrium. Then just sit back and see what happens.

Have you considered calling his bluff? Perhaps you could just take a different tack, and do the bare minimum and do it very very badly without little regard for anything. Start turning up late, forget important things, create problems for him by not doing what you're supposed to do and often doing it wrong. When he goes mental, ask him what he'll do about it. If he has little threat beyond violence, i suspect court will be the last thing on his mind.

I'd bite the bullet, see what happens. If it ends up in court, surely you can prove he's a/ a cunt and b/ takes major liberties c/ doesn't pay enough for you to do the job you're supposed to do.

Personally i'd walk without a second thought, your life would be easier.

I have a mate who's a solicitor, i think it's employment law as well, i may text him tomorrow, although i won't remember, so another one of the many pointless sentences by me. :)

Just fuckin walk if you dont like it.

The bloke wont pursue it anyway but if he does blame stress or depression or some other such crap.

Say he touched you.

Back to the original question, if you're self employed I'd say the contract is void by him not signing it.

If you were employed it would be enforceable, but as self employed you are providing a service to his company and he should have to sign a contract in acceptance of those services.

As far as I am aware the contract is valid, It was offered to you by the company and you signed it to accept the terms of it regardless if they signed it or not. You have taken money from the company therefore they are adhearing to their side of the deal.

True however a company refusing to give a reference is just as bad really???

fucking typical....driving to a training course today....another coach following me.....we we're going past the turning so I put my breaks on pretty sharpish.....bang straight into the back of me...

Not alot of damage to car, infact its pretty alright...will need a new bumper though.

No driving for me this week \ :D /

I think your bad attitude is creating your bad luck

Yeah, cheer up you miserable cunt



 :wink:

he 'sacked' me today....

....says I have to work my 3 months notice.

I dont think so  8)

You should celebrate by buying me beer.

sometimes i think he's so ridiculous he must do it on purpose and film it all for some joke candid camera type programme that will be aired some time in the future.

i remember when i had a broken hand he rang me after a session at highworth a few hours before a friendly last summer.
"dont worry, we have enough players, no point in you risking your hand in a friendly, see you at training thursday"
then at 6ish when theyre due to kick off and im sat at home tucking into my dinner
"where the fuck are you we are short of players you let us down you supposed to be part of the team"

what a joker.

I do wonder...

he's been nice to me since and hasnt put anything in writing, so he'll probably tell me he never sacked me  :roll:

perhaps he's treating you mean to keep you er keen?

perhaps he's a fucking prick?

Perhaps he reads TEF and he's playing with you

perhaps...

Dan - whiplash can be a very bad injury maybe you ought to get it checked out (  glad the cat that run in front of you wasn't hurt)

And how's the headbanging to the first two Slayer albums going?

If he sacked you he cant ask you work notice, if he made you redundant he could, but seeing you are self-employed he cant do neither. Smack him in the teeth and walk.