Thetownend.com

We all know, since our beloved Town were in the Premier League in the early days, that the quality of the Premiership has improved dramatically...but at what cost to our National (English) side??

Are folks happy with the fact that we can watch the majority of the best players in the World week in, week out knowing that this is having an effect on England's potential to do well in euro champs (if we even qualify?!) & world cups??

I personally feel that we don't have enough strength in depth and one of the reasons for this is because our home grown talent is being stifled by the foreign in-flux(and yes, I know this isn't a recent thing). For example, I feel if Wayne Rooney is injured then we aint gotta hope of winning anything. However, a country our size and with the amount of football clubs, we should have about 4 or 5 Wayne Rooneys (god help us) to choose from.

Who have we produced in his class since he burst onto the scene 4ish years ago??

Thoughts?

I dont think Rooney is world class

rooney and gerrard are englans best players by a mile.world class?depends on what world class means.to different people, it means different things.

The number of foreign players is causing the demise of english football.
Its plain and clear.

This would be a great argument if any of the evidence actually backed it up. Sadly it's complete bollocks.

The highpoint of England's history to date, was the best of the Ramsey era, with the '66 world cup win, semi-finals of Euro '68, and quarter finals in world cup '70.

But since then they,

didn't get out of the group stages in Euro '72
failed to qualify for WC '74
didn't get out of the group stages in Euro '76
failed to qualify for WC '78
didn't get out of the group stages in Euro '80
didn't get out of the group stages in WC '82
didn't get out of the group stages in Euro '84
went out in round 2 to the hand of god in WC '86
didn't get out of the group stages in Euro '88
a brief highlight in the impressive performance getting to the semis in WC '90 with Gazza, Waddle, Lineker et al
a disaster at Euro '92 - failing to win a single game and scoring just one goal - early flight home
failed to qualify for WC '94
didn't have to qualify for Euro '96 as hosts and made it to the SF before going out on penalties to Germany
last 16 in the '98 WC before exit on penalties to Argentina
didn't get out of the group stages in Euro 2000
QF in WC 2002
QF in Euro 2004
QF in WC 2006

And now the current debacle.

So, since the influx of foreign players in the mid-90's England have played in the finals of every major tournament, and have got into the knock out stages in each one apart from Euro 2000. Including 3 QF finishes in a row in the last 3 competitions.

Compare that to the period from after the 1970 WC to the end of the 80's when there were almost no foreign players other than Jocks, Paddy's and Taffs in England and you failed to qualify for two world cups and only got out of the group stages once when you made it to round 2 in the '86 world cup.

Just forget this idea that England were a great football power a couple of decades ago, and that you're now in decline and it's all the fault of these damn foreigners coming over here taking our lads jobs. The 10 years from '96 to 2006 has been about as good as you've ever been for an extended period of time.

Only the '62 to '70 run of WC QF, WC winners, Euro SF, WC QF, surpasses it.

In between England have been a bit shit and it was fuck all to do with importing players, and more to do with the total failure of the FA to have anything that approaches a decent youth development strategy.

It's not that we don't develop skillful players in Britain because we import them from Spain, France, Portugal, Italy, Africa and South America, it's that we are forced to import them because we don't have coaching approaches that develop our own skillful players.

This is what I hate about England fans sometimes. So many of you seem to think you should be the best side in the world, winning major tournaments all the time, and when the team are clearly not up to it you cast around for an easy scapegoat to blame.

Can't you just face the fact that finishing somewhere between 5th and 8th in a WC probably reflects the reality of how good you are?

The last post is factually incorrect.

Hand of God in the 2nd round??  WTF?  1/4 finals I believe, England played Paraguay in the second round of Mexico 86.  Didn't get out of the group stages in 82, I think you'll find that was the second round (group stage).

Also you have chosen to ignore the strength of the British sides in Europe in the 60's, 70's and early to mid 80's.

Not that I give a monkeys.

I'll give you the '86 world cup. My mistake.

But your point about the performance of club sides in Europe does't undermine my point it reinforces it.

The inital arguement of this thread was in support of the kind of club vs country bollocks that pundits have been coming up with for the last few years as an excuse for England not winning the world cup every four years. It's arguing that our club sides have got stronger due to the influx of foreign players to the detriment of the international side.

I think that's a load of shite because the international side are no worst now than they've been for the last 30 years, in fact they've been doing slightly better recently than they have for most of their history.

But now you've brought the subject up it's also worth pointing out two further points:

1 - English club sides aren't any fucking better now than they were through the 70's and 80's based on their performance s in Europe  - I can't be arsed to look up the stats but the tally of European trophies won when Liverpool were the preeminient club side is miles ahead of what English sides have won over the last ten years or so. This idea that the Premier League has become the greatest league on earth with the greatest clubs is just another load of bullshit hype.

2- The argument that up until the start of Premier League and the Sky deal millions English club sides were full of brilliant young ENGLISH talent is a bit undermined by a quick look at the starting line up for the last European cup final that Liverpool won in 1984

GK 1  Bruce Grobbelaar
RB 2  Phil Neal
LB 3  Alan Kennedy
CB 4  Mark Lawrenson
LM 5  Ronnie Whelan
CB 6  Alan Hansen
SS 7  Kenny Dalglish   94'
CM 8  Sammy Lee
CF 9  Ian Rush
RM 10  Craig Johnston   72'
CM 11  Graeme Souness (c)

That's four Englishmen in the starting eleven (and people make a big fuss about Chelsea turning out a side that only features Terry, Lampard, Cole and Wright-Philips).

(And before people start about Lawro being a plastic paddy, and actually being as English as Sonic, bear in mind that I'm letting you get away with classing Craig Johnstone as English when he was born in South Africa to Australian parents, and raised in Australia until the age of 15)

I know that's a one off game, but the Liverpool squad in that Fagan era and onwards into the Dalglish era had a minority of English players, the bulk of them being Jocks, Taffs and Paddys with a sprinkling of others from the further reaches of the commonwealth. There were several occasions during this period when Liverpool fielded sides that featured no English players at all. (But this hasn't stopped the BBC reacting to Arsenal doing the same over the last year as if it was the end of the bloody world).

Obviously it would be stupid to argue that there aren't more foreign players in the English game than there were 20 years ago, because obviously there are. I'm just saying that the top clubs have always looked to bring in the best talent from whereever they could, and that there's no evidence to support the argument that the national sides fortunes have declined as a result.

What about your Espana 82 mistake?

 :wink:

craig johnston is australain

I thought that, but after having a check it seems that he got a call-up for the full England squad in 1988. He qualified for England through his British passport and long-time residency.

i stand corrected.

Oh fuck! Can you just tell me what it is ya smug bastard I can't be arsed to look it up!

What did I say out in the first round when they made it to the second group stage or what?

Whatever. Didn't make it to the knock out stage which is the point.

Which explains in 1986 Liverpool were the first team to field a non-english side in a cup final (as at the time he was considered Australian).

Never knew he was called up by england though.  Did he actually play?

Sorry Lumps, I think I'm being a miserable bastard because it's a Monday!!

I think the argument is that the majority of English players miss out on a chance because of cheaper foreign players.

He didn't actually play for the full international team but he did play for England B and the under 21's.

Now if you don't mind, the fact that I've shown some interest in this subject means that I must now kill myself. I'd like to thank you all from the heart of my bottom for all the crazy fun this forum has given me over the years, and wish you all the very best for the future.

Before you do that, who did he play against Spacey??

what he said

I don't know, all I read was that he'd played for the under 21's which meant he wasn't eligible for Australia. He was pissed off with the Australian FA for not kicking up a fuss about it and started getting Arsey with anything Australian. This anger reached boiling point when on the 12 inch of the Anfield rap, he sang 'Rolf Harris was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me.' He also directed Predator.

The influx of foreigners has added the class to the Premiership over the seasons, The likes of Di Canio, Zola, Cantona and Gary Speed have kept the game interesting and meant that us lower league clubs have been able to pick up loads of youth rejects.

Apart from that the whole things bollocks and detracts from the old school following your local smelly teen spirit.

I don't think he was ever that interested in playing for the convicts. He was quoted when he was a teenager as saying "playing football for Australia is like surfing for England".

It's a Craig Johnston face off!

he did in fact make himself available to Australian soccer in the mid-eighties. Only to be erroneously advised by our own soccer authorities that he was ineligible, having represented England twice at Under 21 level. So angered was Johnston by the lack of consultation on behalf of the Australian Soccer Federation (ASF), that when he discovered that he was in fact eligible for the Socceroos after all, he drew his own conclusions:


'So disheartened was I by the Australian body’Äôs attitude, that I made a resolution.  There was no way Craig Johnston would be involved with any side under that particular ASF administration’Äôs jurisdiction.  It meant I would never play for Australia' He then went on to shock a packed press conference by revealing that Dame Edna Everage was actually a man and Mel Gibson was a cock.

http://www.ozfootball.net/ark/articles/cjohnston.html

Oh dear.

A man that talks about himself in the third person.

Lumps considers that very bad form. Lumps resolves that he will never indulge in such behaviour.........

Oh bollocks!

spacey discussing football. it's disturbing.

Rooney is shite by the way.

 :Ride On Fatbury's Lovestick:  tell us another,go on please.

I like trying to prove points on the basis of single statistics:

Top German team: 2
Premiership's next-to-worst-team: 2

and Oliver Kahn looking like he's going to cry. hehehe.

Lumps is right generally. If young English players are good enough, they get a chance in the premier league. All that the influx of foreigners does is pervent mediocre youngsters getting a run out in the premiership.

The fact that England has a smaller pool of players to chose from these days dosnt matter. Pre-premier league most of the english players in the top flight were rubbish anyway. I dont see how it harms englands chances not to have a choice of 8 shit left backs playing regular top flight games

Again, if they are good enough and have the right attitude then they will drop down a level and prove themselves. Some dont even have to drop out bof the prem to get a chance  Bentley for example.

As someone else mentioned, its generally good for STFC as well, half decent (by L1 standards) youngsters are getting loaned / released.

Like, errrrm, Rickcy Shakes and Charlie Comyn Platt. Bollocks.

Two words - Perry Groves

Do Arsenal fans miss having the likes of him playing for them?

Has it held back the national team because the likes of him can no longer command a place in top flight teams?

Has it bollocks!

so why are Scotland doing so well then??

watched Inside Sport last night with Gordon Strachan (whom I rate) and he believes for example, that ONE of the reasons is because at Celtic, he has thrown young Scottish players into Champions League games that perhaps he wouldn't have done in the past (meaning the likes of Balde are sat on the bench).

As a consequence, that benefits that player as he gains more experience at the top level playing against some of the best players in Europe/World. Therefore is more confident in his own game at International level and therefore develops quicker as a player.

Sorry, but to talk about Perry Groves is bollox imo as the game has changed somewhat since his playing days and football is far more advanced.

I would agree that the fact Celtic and Rangers are now trying to field Scottish players has helped the Scotland national side.  Hibs also need to get a mention for providing Celtic and Rangers with a barrel load of young decent Scottish players.

I do think that exposure to Champions League or Uefa cup football helps the youngsters coming through.

Having said that, being the pessimistic soul I am, I don;t really believe Scotland are as good as we think we are right now.  In a couple of years we'll be better but at the moment we may be riding our luck a little.

Just hope we ride our luck until the final whistle on 17/11/07.

Who's to say you didnt currently have a strong generation of youngsters anyway?

It does clearly help younsters to be exposed to good quality football. But they still wont suddenly become world beaters beacuse of it if they dont have genuine promise in the 1st place.

The likes of Scholes, Giggs, Beckham and G neville would have all made it as top quality players without their early exposure to european football. Likewise you could reel off a list of names of youngsters that got games at United in the last 10 years who are playing at a lower standard now

If Darren Fletcher came through the Motherwell ranks he would not be the asset that he is today for Scotland.  Exposure to decent training, European football and the best manager in Britain has made him the player he is today.

Cheers Fergie.

A mediocre central midfielder? :wink:

Not for Scotland mate, he plays well for the national side.

Wasn't Fletcher supposed to be the next David Beckham?

Some right winger he turned out to be...

see wat i started  :wink:

Reading manager Steve Coppell insists it is time the Barclays Premier League started to "protect its own identity" by limiting the amount of foreign players in each squad.



Coppell has suggested introducing a system where each top flight side must include at least one Englishman in their matchday squad - but do you believe this would be good for the game?


Should the Premier League go further and insist on at least half the side being eligible for England?


Do you think the current regulations are damaging England's chances in major tournaments?


How would the change be greeted by clubs such as Arsenal who regularly field teams without any English born players?

if it were limited the premier league standard would decrease.the best british lads will still come through regardless.and the lower leagues have better british players in them due to the foreigners in the prem

spot on. The way the very best english players progress is by playing with and against the best players in the world, not by playing with a load of average english players.

Good to see common sense prevailing here rather than the shallow, populist and short sighted view that we'd be fucking great if it wasnt for all those pesky foreigners "teking arrrrr jerbs"

De.... tok.... arr.... jarbs....!!!

Back to the pile everyone!

fucking great episode of South park :D

Bum again.... Shame bens view of Paulownia has changed from the one he had on pag  2 of this topix