Hillsborough Memorial

[RobertT]

I'm not sure why, but I always seem more affected by the Bradford and Heysel disasters.  I am fairly sure (time often changes the minds view) that I watched the Heysel one unfold on live TV and I have watched recorded full coverage of the Bradford one and both are far more graffic I suppose.  I remember seeing the Policeman in the Bradford one, who was on fire after trying to save people from the stand.  Heysel was sickening because it was essentially caused by fans, even if not on purpose.

[leefer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrox_disaster 

Rangers have had there fair share of tragedys too reading this.

[Spencer_White]

The HSE when putting together their report after say that at MAXIMUM there were 10,124 people in that enclosure - the tickets sold were 10,100

In the same post you are quoting and discrediting the same report.

Liverpool did have, and still have a reputation for jibbing. They pride themselves on it, just as they did a couple of years ago in Athens for the European Cup final, where they outfoxed the authorities to get thousands of extra people into that ground. Look at the FA Cup final in 1986, thousands of fans surging and crushing outside the turnstiles.

The fans outside the ground who caused that crush outside didnt have tickets. If they had tickets they wouldnt have been pushing together to create a situation where they could get in the ground. Its never the Scousers fault is it?  

The FA were deaf to the crushing of Liverpool fans in the semi final the season before. They knew they had a culture of trying to get in without tickets, and they still didnt give them the bigger Kop end. Stupid pens.

Yeah, the Police didnt care about the fans. They let people die, rather than take action. The people who died were innocent and no one has ever been prosecuted for ignoring fans being crushed to death.

Obviously just wish it had never happened. It has cast a massive shadow over the game for too long. If Liverpool fans had taken some responsibility for the ticketless fans who had caused crushing outside the ground, then maybe terracing wouldnt have taken such a hammering in the Taylor report? And then maybe football wouldnt have been butchered in the following 20 years?

[Melksham Red]

Spencer, what the fuck do you think you are doing criticising scousers? You cunt!

[pauld]

The fans outside the ground who caused that crush outside didnt have tickets. If they had tickets they wouldnt have been pushing together to create a situation where they could get in the ground.

Fucking hell Spencer, thought you'd be the last one to fall for the coppers'/Sun's smear stories. The build-up of fans outside the ground mainly consisted of fans with tickets arriving late because of unscheduled roadworks on the M62. Not because they didn't have tickets, not because they were drunken hooligans though there were probably some of both in the crowd, but the overwhelming majority were ordinary fans who arrived late through no fault of their own and couldn't get in to see their team play in an FA Cup semi-final for which they had bought tickets. That was what caused the build-up outside the ground, the subsequent crush inside the ground was caused by the police misinterpreting events outside as a ticketless hooligan charge, assuming the crush inside was hooligans trying to get on the pitch. And the smears have gone on ever since as those responsible in authority tried desperately to cover their own backs.

[Spencer_White]

It was football culture at the time. They were very sophisticated at getting into games without tickets. There were/are lots of tricks. It was already a massive issue at the time (a football taboo), which is why no Liverpool fan would ever admit to being inside the Leppings Lane end without a ticket. And why the Sun wrongly pinned the blame on the fans. The vast majority of the blame still lies with the police. But there were ticketless fans in that end, because there were thousands who tried it on for every big Liverpool match in the 1980's.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A46309755

Sir Bagalot explains how it was in that post.

Maybe Im more cynical because I am the sort of scum who would try and get into a ground without a ticket? I went to Germany 2006 and never got near a game, but it didnt stop us thinking of ways to get into a match?

To be honest, Im still bitter about the Taylor report. The outcome of it really pinned the blame on the concrete stands, who couldnt protest their innocence. I think they went easy on the Police, because really they still partly blamed the fans (but had to bottle it, fearing public outrage from Merseyside, public outrage that had been stoked by the Sun). Because they went easy on the police it was the football grounds that eventually got most of the blame. They also said it could have been any club, but it was likely to happen to some clubs a lot more than others.

Its my opinion. Unfortunately its such a gut wrenching terrible tragedy that has scarred so many people that I dont think a real balanced report will ever come out. Too emotive for everyone, even now.

[Christy]

Fucking hell Spencer, thought you'd be the last one to fall for the coppers'/Sun's smear stories. The build-up of fans outside the ground mainly consisted of fans with tickets arriving late because of unscheduled roadworks on the M62. Not because they didn't have tickets, not because they were drunken hooligans though there were probably some of both in the crowd, but the overwhelming majority were ordinary fans who arrived late through no fault of their own and couldn't get in to see their team play in an FA Cup semi-final for which they had bought tickets. That was what caused the build-up outside the ground, the subsequent crush inside the ground was caused by the police misinterpreting events outside as a ticketless hooligan charge, assuming the crush inside was hooligans trying to get on the pitch. And the smears have gone on ever since as those responsible in authority tried desperately to cover their own backs.

One other thing which struck me at the time, but may or may not have come out in 20 years of wash.  For the 88 Hillsborough semi, the police set up cordons in the streets around the ground, to ensure an orderly route to the turnstiles.  IF there were fans without tickets, they could get nowhere near the ground.  The match passed without incident. 

For 1989, thanks to the infinite wisdom of the South Yorkshire Police, there were no cordons.  We all know what happened next.

[larwood]

Amazing that after all these years people still persist in blaming Liverpool fans for what happened that day.When it was quite obviously a fuck up on a massive scale by the police.

To my mind Hillsborough was the ultimate consequence of the hooligan culture of the day,all fans,according to the police and authorities were animals who should be treated like scum and the outcome was 96 people being crushed to death,not to mention the people who were there that day who still suffer emotionally and physically.The families still campagining for justice will always have my support.No one has ever been offically held accountable for what happened that day and they are livid about it and fair play to them i say.

Hillsborough changed football in this country,i think mostly for the better.Something had to be done about the awful state of the grounds then,and unfortunately it took the deaths of so many people for that change to happen.The Taylor report didn't make football become the game it has since become,just helped to shape it for better or worse.I think the fact i can go to a game and know i'll come home again in one peice is fantastic tbh.Sky tv money is what really changed football not the Taylor report.

[Don Rogers Shop]

Vicious circle though Larwood, would sky have been interested in the brand if the taylor report had not happened. probably not

[horlock07]

Fucking hell Spencer, thought you'd be the last one to fall for the coppers'/Sun's smear stories. The build-up of fans outside the ground mainly consisted of fans with tickets arriving late because of unscheduled roadworks on the M62. Not because they didn't have tickets, not because they were drunken hooligans though there were probably some of both in the crowd, but the overwhelming majority were ordinary fans who arrived late through no fault of their own and couldn't get in to see their team play in an FA Cup semi-final for which they had bought tickets. That was what caused the build-up outside the ground, the subsequent crush inside the ground was caused by the police misinterpreting events outside as a ticketless hooligan charge, assuming the crush inside was hooligans trying to get on the pitch. And the smears have gone on ever since as those responsible in authority tried desperately to cover their own backs.

Not trying to stir things up, as don't know a great deal about things only what read on net and on TV over last few days.

One interesting fact that was raised on one of the programmes (not by the police I think, although I am happy to be corrected) was that the decision to open the gate which directly caused the disaster was taken due to a concern that due to crushing outside, supporters were being crushed against the walls and turnstiles with injuries being suffered and fears of fatalities. Therefore I wonder what could have actually been done to solve the problem when this stage was reached?

[jonny72]

One interesting fact that was raised on one of the programmes (not by the police I think, although I am happy to be corrected) was that the decision to open the gate which directly caused the disaster was taken due to a concern that due to crushing outside, supporters were being crushed against the walls and turnstiles with injuries being suffered and fears of fatalities. Therefore I wonder what could have actually been done to solve the problem when this stage was reached?

You can't really put everything down to their decision to open the gates, there was a sequence of events after that happened (and before) which all contributed to cause and make the problem worse - the decision to open the gates on its own wasn't necessarily the wrong one either.

Once they had opened the gate they didn't close off the central pens which were already full. The majority of the people going in through the open gates headed for the central pens and if they had been closed off things would have turned out differently.

Then the police failed to realise exactly what was happening until it was too late, incorrectly thinking it was crowd trouble rather than what it actually was. By the time the police and everyone else got organised and started doing something about it the damage had been done and it was too late.

Its well worth having a quick read of the Taylor report which details every factor that contributed to the disaster. Whilst the senior police officers in charge on the day made a number of bad and catastrophic decisions, there were plenty of other things that played a part both before and on the day itself.

[Ironside]

To my mind Hillsborough was the ultimate consequence of the hooligan culture of the day,all fans,according to the police and authorities were animals who should be treated like scum and the outcome was 96 people being crushed to death,not to mention the people who were there that day who still suffer emotionally and physically.The families still campagining for justice will always have my support.No one has ever been offically held accountable for what happened that day and they are livid about it and fair play to them i say.

If Hillsborough was the "ultimate consequence of the hooligan culture of the day" then you must surely agree that as Liverpool had one of the worst reputations in European football throughout the 80's (remember Heysel only 4 years previously?), and it was because of hooliganism that the OB treated football fans like scum, that they must accept some culpability over the events of that day?

[ghanimah]

Charles Itandje's a twat;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/17/charles-itandje-hillsborough-service-liverpool

[Spencer_White]

Charles Itandje's a twat;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/17/charles-itandje-hillsborough-service-liverpool

I suppose thats one way to get a free transfer.

[tans]

21 years today.

RIP.

I watched this on LFCTV earlier, and actually started balling my eyes out.