Pages: 1 ... 12 13 14 [15] 16 17   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Finally...a man who stands up and says what a lot of people really think  (Read 28307 times)
jonny72

Offline Offline

Posts: 5554





Ignore
« Reply #210 on: Friday, August 14, 2009, 23:37:58 »

Very well put.

If I could save the equivalent of £340 a month by not paying the fat pig that is the NHS I would happily donate £160 to a medical charity to look after the disadvantaged (or a family of three for a year). I would still be £180 a month better off. I am sure that a lot of other employed people would feel the same way.

Why do you assume that the status quo is the best way to do things? It obviously isn't - there are alternatives.

Where did you get that quote that Bupa is a third of the cost of the NHS?

Does the Bupa health care include; a gp, an ambulance service, an a&e service and everything else that you get under the NHS? I doubt it very much. Bupa is nothing more than an expensive way for people with money to get treated quicker, it has got fuck all to do with whether the NHS is doing a good job or not.
Logged
flammableBen

« Reply #211 on: Friday, August 14, 2009, 23:56:43 »

Where did you get that quote that Bupa is a third of the cost of the NHS?

Does the Bupa health care include; a gp, an ambulance service, an a&e service and everything else that you get under the NHS? I doubt it very much. Bupa is nothing more than an expensive way for people with money to get treated quicker, it has got fuck all to do with whether the NHS is doing a good job or not.

Along with the fact that they can select their patients. Good luck getting Bupa cover if there's something wrong with you. Or even worse, "Oh you've been with us for a while now but things aren't looking good, here you go, we'll pay a premium and you can go back on the NHS because if you die on our watch it makes our numbers looks bad"
Logged
flammableBen

« Reply #212 on: Friday, August 14, 2009, 23:59:22 »

Also talkytalktalk, you never got back to me here...

http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,34566.msg705960.html#msg705960

Logged
Simon Pieman
Original Wanker

Offline Offline

Posts: 36319




« Reply #213 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 01:30:25 »

If the NHS was scrapped then there would obviously be a hell of a lot more private patients and in order to make that private system cope the costs would go up. Private health plans may well be cheaper at the moment but if the NHS could run itself on that money currently then it already would.

Obviously there are many inefficiencies and poorly managed aspects to the NHS. I don't agree with cosmetic surgery provided to those who don't need it or post code lotteries for example. In my opinion the NHS needs to be reformed for such aspects rather than scrapped in favour of private health care.

Perhaps we should simply pay more. Why does there need to be privatisation in order to make that happen? With private health care you don't really have a choice but to pay for a health plan unless you want to gamble with your health, have enough money stashed to cover a large medical bill or you can't afford to pay for it, in which case you receive inferior health care.

And for what it's worth I don't hold too high regard for the NHS after experiencing some incompetencies first and second hand. My point of view is that the system doesn't need change but the way the system is run needs change.

Logged
mexico red

Offline Offline

Posts: 11755


Demasiado no es demasiado




Ignore
« Reply #214 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 07:27:55 »

Alan, You talk about paying tax tax tax, well the reason we pay tax tax tax is so everybody can recieve a sufficient level of healthcare. Its all well and good moaning about paying all this money, I sincerly hope you never become ill. I paid my tax for 15 years, then I became seriously ill, it costs the NHS £87,500 to keep me alive every single year, thank fuck we have universal health care because if I was american I would have died 3 and a half years ago. There is a bigger picture out there Alan, as  a sane humane person how can you begrudge universal health care for your fellow human beings?
Logged
Barry Scott

Offline Offline

Posts: 9113




« Reply #215 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:03:22 »

I think people are not inherently nice, quite the opposite, and that's why I also think Socialism always fails.  The good samaritan story exists for a reason, plenty of people would and do walk on by.  So long as that exists, absolutle free market and no government (in whatever form) approaches can't work.

 Yes

I'm no socialist and despite how people like to think we're in the majority good, we're not. Two of the most powerful and common emotions a human has, which govern almost everything, are fear and greed and they're not nice emotions.

And that reminds me of one of the reasons why I believe socialism has a not insignificant following, it's not to make everything better for everyone, it's to make sure "they" don't have more than "me", "because it's unfair".

An interesting experiment done by a professor (it could have been Robert Cialdini phd) into social perceptions of money, sat 2 people at a table along with $100 and asked them to share it.

One was a person off the street and one was an actor. They then assigned each a role. The Actor got to decide how the $100 was shared between them, then the person off the street got to decide whether they got that amount or they got nothing.

After performing this test many, many times, it turned out that if the actor said he wanted $70 or more, then the member of the public said he'd rather have nothing. Amusingly, rather than leave the room with $30 more than they entered with, they'd rather leave with nothing, than let the other take the loins share.

To see if this was because $100 was not enough, I believe the same experiment was repeated with a greater sum producing the same results. Then to see if the results were because we're greedy, already have enough and it might be down to the western perception of money, they tried the same experiments in third world countries where the sum of $100 was more than most earn in a month. Crazily, nothing changed. These people with barely a penny, would rather have nothing, than see someone else have more. 
Logged
Talk Talk

« Reply #216 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:17:33 »

See i just don't get people like you Alan. You hate this country you hate everything about it from the goverment to new football stadiums.You have a choice mate if it bugs you that much then live elsewhere but you wont and i will tell you why,it is because as much as this country is shit in your eyes you know damn well we have it much better than most

I'm getting out of here as soon as I can - plans laid. It's been turned into a shit hole. There are far better places to live in the world, even over the channel is better.
Logged
Talk Talk

« Reply #217 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:18:38 »

A commentary on Hannan's NHS comments.

http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2009/08/criticising-nhs-is-not-treason.html
Logged
jayohaitchenn
Wielder of the BANHAMMER

Offline Offline

Posts: 12534




« Reply #218 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:20:13 »

even over the channel is better.

Surely you don't mean France?! It's full of French people... FRENCH PEOPLE!
Logged
Talk Talk

« Reply #219 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:29:49 »

Alan, as  a sane humane person how can you begrudge universal health care for your fellow human beings?

I don't begrudge it at all. In fact I would have been more than happy to personally contribute to the health care costs for your unfortunate ailment if I had the choice of doing so.

You see the laughable 'what about the poor without the NHS?' argument goes like this:

Alan: "So you care about the poor then"
TEF Poster: "oh yes, yes I do"
Alan: "Ok. How much money do you give to poor people at the moment?"
TEF Poster: "Erm, well nothing actually"
Alan: "Then you don't really care about the poor anyway, do you?"
TEF Poster: "Bugger"

I take Rob's point that he is lazy and wants to be mollycoddled and looked after by the state, which is fine. But IMO he pays through the nose for it. I would like the option of deciding where and how I spend my money. Let me opt out of the NHS, state schooling and so on. But it won't happen because one size fits all which can never work. Government monopolies are shit. What do governments do well at? Nothing, they fuck up everything they touch and that is the nature of the beast.
Logged
RobertT

Offline Offline

Posts: 11750




Ignore
« Reply #220 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:47:36 »

Now we are getting somewhere, I think the option to Opt out of some things is an idea I can buy into, provided the basic concept of universal free at point of use Health Care is retained (so private preimums should cover a % contribution to the NHS).  In fact, I would not be averse to paying a defined amount from my wage (so it's clear what it is for an ringfenced) towards a National health scheme that funded a privately run system - so all healthcare institutions were actually private.  The one thing I do agree on is that publicly run "companies" are stupidly inefficient.  I would be happy with that but would still want my laziness looked after by knowing a central or local government existed to collect the premiums for everyone and also regulated the level of healthcare provided.
Logged
BANGKOK RED

« Reply #221 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 08:55:16 »

But then it wouldn't fucking work would it? Why not just use a bit of common dog.

I reckon that if people like talk talk came out here, then they would complain about the lack of health service and the high prices in private hospitals.

You're damned if you do, and you're damned if ya don't, some people just seem to bitch for the sake of it.

What have the romans ever done for us?
Logged
dell boy

« Reply #222 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 09:06:56 »

Yes

I'm no socialist and despite how people like to think we're in the majority good, we're not. Two of the most powerful and common emotions a human has, which govern almost everything, are fear and greed and they're not nice emotions.

And that reminds me of one of the reasons why I believe socialism has a not insignificant following, it's not to make everything better for everyone, it's to make sure "they" don't have more than "me", "because it's unfair".

An interesting experiment done by a professor (it could have been Robert Cialdini phd) into social perceptions of money, sat 2 people at a table along with $100 and asked them to share it.

One was a person off the street and one was an actor. They then assigned each a role. The Actor got to decide how the $100 was shared between them, then the person off the street got to decide whether they got that amount or they got nothing.

After performing this test many, many times, it turned out that if the actor said he wanted $70 or more, then the member of the public said he'd rather have nothing. Amusingly, rather than leave the room with $30 more than they entered with, they'd rather leave with nothing, than let the other take the loins share.

To see if this was because $100 was not enough, I believe the same experiment was repeated with a greater sum producing the same results. Then to see if the results were because we're greedy, already have enough and it might be down to the western perception of money, they tried the same experiments in third world countries where the sum of $100 was more than most earn in a month. Crazily, nothing changed. These people with barely a penny, would rather have nothing, than see someone else have more. 

And this one:


An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class.

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. 

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. 
The second test average was a D!   No one was happy.


When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. 

All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that.
Logged
mexico red

Offline Offline

Posts: 11755


Demasiado no es demasiado




Ignore
« Reply #223 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 09:10:07 »

judging a society on a bunch of american college bums is somewhat flawed me thinks.
Logged
flammableBen

« Reply #224 on: Saturday, August 15, 2009, 09:11:35 »

So what you're saying dell is that none of us achieve anything at all in this country because we won't be left to die if we can't afford health care?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 14 [15] 16 17   Go Up
Print
Jump to: