Thetownend.com

So he got off today then but is up for a retrial already.

The case as a whole has only given his party a bigger platform and the trial has probabaly backfired in that sense.Sometime the crap he spouts rings slightly true I think the media does feels more comfortable reporting  on white on black crime than it does black on white.

Im not really sure why that is perhaps someone could explain?

The main reason in my opinion is that they find all the PC stuff in the way of reporting how it really is.

Because apart from the Mail all our media (even traditionally right wing papers like the sun) are in bed with the Liberals and Labour party

That makes me sound like I support the Daily Mail (which I dont) but you get my point

no it runs deeper than that in my opinion.

Papars ultimatly print what they think their readers want to hear.

Has the main stream Tabloid press got the mood of the nation wrong?

Yeah, but whats the mood of the nation, that's my point?

Alot of ignorant people brand Griffin and the BNP as racist scum who should be shot... which is, well, ignorant.

Frankly there are a lot of right wing back benchers in the tories who would feel most at ease with the bnp.

I think that deep down the nation all are getting very annoyed with immigration and the failure of our government to put a cap on it.

Not gonna get all racist on here as always turns into laughable posts, but we ought to sort out our own first before helping others.  How many drug addicts, homeless people, elderly people who arent helped have we got?Makes me sick at times, I think when the papers jump on backs of a story that sides with the PC people we have more often than not

Lets not forget the only reason he was on trial is because he was set up by the BBC.

Entrapment anyone?

Ask Sven.

Entrap Nick Griffin and his Nazi mates?

Yeah I'm up for it!

I'd suggest a big pit covered in twigs with big sharpened stakes in the bottom of it!

Or does that only work in cartoons?

Oh dear another ignorant perspective

The Nazis were socialist which Griffin is not...

Thing is that the media, both print and broadcast, are now taking it upon themselves to make news and not just to report it. However, people tolerated facist commentary in Germany and Italy pre 1939 and that led to the Holocost and other grandiose and repugnant ideas from Hitler and Mussolini, so if Mr Griffin has racist opinions which have little or no basis in fact ie stereotyping, he can fuck off along with those who support his bigotted opinions. Goodnight.

I dont think racism is the norm in the country.

I do however believe there is a massive under current of racism mostly within the working classes that isnt adressed.If im honest at least 70% of my mates and relatives are racists.Im not.

I don't consider myself racist. But I do consider myself to be a nationalist, too many bandwagon jumping cunts thinks that means I only spout off pure vitriol about "pakis" and "wogs" etc

Which is simply not the case.

There's a clear difference between disagreeing with political correctness and racisim. PC shit angers me so much. PC only enforces racism in my view, but that is a different matter.

Griffin said "I am not a racist". Of course he is. Targeting people due to religion or race is a form of racism. The guy pretty much says he hates the people that made this society multi-cultural. What a cunt. He talks so much contradictory bollocks to justify his feelings it's unreal. That said, I'm glad the BNP are in the public eye. There will always be morons who share their views whether there's a party or not. If the party were underground it would be more dangerous in my opinion.

fact is, whilst the bnp can be considered a legitimate political party - which is fair enough, this is a democracy - some of their policies are downright racist and it's undeniable that griffin has tried to incite racial hatred, perhaps not in such an extreme way as someone like abu hamza but anyone who says he isn't racist are fooling themselves.

off the top of my head, i thought the nazi's only claimed to be socialist as the country was so poor at the time and used as a ploy to gain power?

although i do agree that immigration is a problem and the country is becoming far too politically correct - i've got to attend a 'diversity' seminar at college next week, i'm 19 for fucks sake - there's no chance you'd see me voting for the bnp.

in my opinion, the next step from the bnp is fascism.

but i'm a bleeding heart liberal cunt of course  :-))(

Mostly down to those in control of the media(some will tell you zionists :smile1: ), who for whatever reason have deemed it sensible to hold back stories where white people have been racially attacked, which then inflames most people who find out even more than if they had just been told in the first place.  This always makes me feel like someone is doing this on purpose to keep us divided and ruled, but most likely it's the chattering classes thinking everyone should just 'get along' controlling the output.  

The Met chief was saying the other day that the newspapers seem reluctent to publish crimes that have been commited against black people(not necessarily racist ones), and he's right there as well.  The reason in this case is probably more that it doesn't sell papers.  The vast coverage of Damilola Taylor, Stephen Lawrence, and the recent trial in Liverpool give people a false perception that these sort of crimes always get the headlines.  Many are just ignored as they don't catch the imagination.  The first two of those was more to do with the families campaigning making them newsworthy if you ask me.

This is also the same media that has tried to convince everybody that there's a paedophile at the door!  Don't let your kids outside!  Yet most kids are abused by people in their families or family friends.  They have alot to answer for in my book.  Hope this makes sense :smile1:

I've got some nasal spray for not smoking, except it's more like mase.  Which is handy as it's kind of hard to smoke when you're incapacitated.

Nobody would have voted for the Nazi party if we hadn't arse raped them in the treaty of Versailles so much. This is a whole different kettle of fish.

the bnp have jumped on the coat tails of fading nationalism and patriotism in a very cynical and underhanded manner. because of them, nationalist pride is considered to be racist and unacceptably by many.

morrissey said it best when he sang 'i've been dreaming of a time when / to be english is not to be baneful / to be standing by the flag not feeling shameful, racist or partial'.

I don't think I'd vote BNP but the notion that they're a group of thugs who go around beating up ethnics is dangerously overstated. Truth is there are many aspects to Nationalist policy that I agree with... stopping immigration, reinstatement of capital and corporal punishment etc.

We had some Israeli woman in for Social Studies this week and we were forced to go... to me that is forcing a culture on people who live in and hail from a completely different one.

Btw Sonic if you want a history debate, look at Nazi domestic policy... essentially socialist

I smoked fags on Tuesday and a few on Wednesday.None today though,im wank at giving up but im keeping on trying.

Capital punishment is so flawed it is not worth reinstating. Even with DNA testing it still won't be a good idea. Look at America - the courts are clogged up by people having trial and retrial when they are on death row. A lot of inmates are on death row for years as a result. I personally think prison should be about punishment not rehabilitation, but the death penalty shouldn't be reinstated.

Think your right pieman. Its always better to have the opposition in site, so to speak. I too am pissed of with the PC shite you hear in some quarters, but this does not detract from the fact that that all members of our multi-cultural society have something to bring to the party and should be encouraged to do so. As far as I am concerned if Ashan Holgate and Aaron Brown are welcome here then so is anyone else of the same cultural background. You know MLK said back in the 60s that one day people would be judged "by the content of their character and not by the colour of their skin" and it seems to me that that day is well overdue!!

No its not.

Every single one a skinhead with a scorn.Have a look at their site every single one of them could be the missing link.

Dave, a word.

It's not a good idea to throw about the word ignorant with such gay abandon, and then commit such an obvious politico-historical howler?

OK. Clever boy you know that Nazi is a contraction of National Socialist. Glad the GCSE history class wasn't a complete waste of time and money.

Does that make them socialists? Well. Did they support a policy of democratic, ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange? (That's the factories, shops and banks).

That's a rhetorical question. (The answers NO by the way.)

The name's probably best explained as a bit of political spin. A branding that was required if a populist party was going to have any sort of mass appeal in 1930's Germany, where the Socialist Party and Communist Party membership ran into the millions.

It's true there was a proportion of the brown shirts that proposed to carry through a social revolution after the regime had siezed power, but that was never the stated positiion of the leadership and they were all "purged" during the night of the long knives.



Sorry if that sounded a bit patronising but the ignorant remark got my back up.

For you to use it, and then seek to defend the BNP as having nothing to do with fascism, Nazism is more than ironic, it's laughable.

Griffin's a Neo-nazi, his party is a fascist party. They might be trying to dress up their image as a respectable bunch pf politicians, but Griffin was deputy to Tyndale and was at all the rallies with the Swastikas and jackboots and the whole bit. And the skinheads who used to spit at old Asian women on their "papersale" on Brick Lane, (before they were run of it) are still in the party and cavorting around outside court on the telly this week, like the big tough men they wish they were.

They've not even expelled the "The Mad Bomber" who's name escapes me but has done two jail terms for firebombing mosques and family homes.

Dave for fuck sake mate they're not just racist scum, they're fascist scum. Shootings to fucking good for them.

stated where? perhaps you're misunderstanding the notion of racism that people are suggesting. racism has nothing to do with violence in my eyes.



there are other political parties who are against immigration, or at least want to control it more stringently. as for capital/corporal punishment, what a ridiculous notion. obviously it works so well elsewhere in the world doesn't it?

How were you forced, did the Gestapo drag you along or load you onto to a cattle train?

Is capital punishment a ridiculous notion? Those 3 men who kidnapped, stripped, beat and raped a 3 year old girl last month weren't mentally ill, drugged up or anything, they were just scum. In my opinion capital punishment is the only logical deterrent.

I said I wouldn't vote BNP. I merely stated I felt that some of their more considered policies are worth standing for.

Nice to see you reaching out to the Gay community Yeovil me old mucker.

What a waste of tax payer’s money this trial really was.

I'd have bet my balls he would be proven innocent but they’ve only gone and given a far greater platform to the man they wish to silence, in the process made him a martyr for free speech and with the publicity managed to insult more folks than a night out in Oldham Town Hall would ever have reached.

It won't deter people from doing those fucked up things. The person who knows right from wrong just doesn't do that shit. The person who doesn't won't give a fuck regardless.

Killing people as punishment is just as bad as killing someone on the street.

that's the problem though, who decides whether someone lives or dies? some jumped up cunt in a suit? some gay ponce with a wig who fucks rentboys?

i don't disagree that those people are scum but there are innocent people who will be killed. people who could or have been successfully rehabilitated who will be killed. it's just not right.

Fair enough mate but the Nazi/socialist stuff is not really what I'm debating, good points though. I never levelled that ignorant remark at you on a personal level, I assure you that.

Look, I'm not trying to defend acts of racial hatred as you mention, but you're implying that it is solely the BNPs problem... which is misguided. Facism and racism do not stem from the BNP, the BNP stems from facism (which is unacceptable), but also nationalism (which I believe in).

I just like to argue with people  :D

Is capital punishment a ridiculous notion?

Ask Timothy Evans or Derek Bentley.

No but there has to be some form of ultimate punishment for those who are clearly always a menace. In today's climate child rapists and murderers can walk the street in 12 years after a conviction. I'm sorry but at the very least life must mean life in prison.

again, the bnp does not have any interest in nationalism - they have simply hijacked the notion for their own political benefit. the majority of their policies are utterly ridiculous bollocks which is designed to make people yearn for the 'good old days', proposing to reinstate outdated and illogical ideas.



lifetime solitary confinement. lock them up and throw away the key. life means life, not a life sentence which lasts 20-30 years.

an eye for an eye is not a solution.

For once tonight, I do agree!

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment.
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.
 
Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.

Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods

Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.
In spite of this imposing list, when pressed by the BBC Panorama team in September 2001 on the convictions of its leading members, party leader Nick Griffin just lied. He claimed Tony Lecomber, his deputy merely had a conviction for handling fireworks. He also claimed that party chief steward Warren Bennett had a minor conviction “some 15 years ago” but had not been in trouble since. The truth is that Bennett has been named in the Scottish press for violence as recently as 2002. Griffin also tried to claim that Colin Smith had no convictions.



Now even if a leopard can change it's spots, can that many?  These are thugs and racists, and they're the ones in charge, nevermind your rank and file idiot.


The name Nazi comes from the german National Socialist Party.  A National Socialist is however very different from a Socialist in many ways, yet similar in some.  The old way we looked at politics was a circle, and if you get far enough round you pretty much meet i.e. Communism/Fascism.

Of course they are, I'm not disputing that. But in our essentially 2 party system both Labour and the Cons are quite centralised. Frankly Blair is more of a Christian Democrat than he is true Labour. There is very little political outlet for right wing supporters... thats not to say a facist loony... thats to say a right wing sympathiser... and is that democratic?

Amir... about half of those crimes you listed are not racially motivated so it's not really the point is it?

They are thugs and racists. Great people to run the country I think you'd agree  :|

Christ let's clarify shall we

1. I don't think the BNP are fit to run GB
2. I wouldn't vote BNP
3. I fully accept that the party has it's fair share of nutters
4. They are fundamentally facist

HOWEVER

1. the bnp stand for certain nationalist principles which i support
2. they are overstated in terms of their 'evilness'
3. griffin as a leader of a recognised party has the right to say what he wants in a priate speech

not racially motivated dave?

who ever proved facism is bad? racism, yes, but facism is no worse than communism, if you ask me.

Lecomber- That's the mad bomber! Thanks Amir, that had annoyed me all night.

DMR - thanks for making your position clear. You had me worried earlier.

The whole fascism/communism thing? Well if by communism you mean the undemocratic totalitarian regimes of eastern Europe and the Chinese block then sure they look pretty similar. Certainly in terms of the structure and operation of the state apparatus they're like peas in a pod. But all totalitarian regimes do, whether Stalinist, Maoist, Fascist or your common or garden military police dictatorship, like Chile/Argentina/Turkey and Irag until quite recently. Even the Theocratic regimes like Iran use the same kinds of institutions, a tightly controlled media, politically motivated court and penal system, secret police services, torture, abduction and assasination of opposition leaders, you know the kind of thing.

Fascism and Communism (and now I guess some of the Islamist regimes?)are different in that they start on the basis of a mass political movement.

The diffence for me between the two is I guess their intentions / motivations. Fascism is very much a movement based on a charismatic leader/figurehead. It's always about installing that person into absolute power. (Looked on that way the BNP look less of threat, Griffin being about as charismatic as Lifetime Red - the original on TISTFC, not Yeovil's homage). But anyway its intent is always undemocratic, a dictatorship.

The communist revolution in Russia at least started out with democratic intent. Its system of government was to be a participative democracy, based on committees of workers, soldiers, sailors (soviets that's where the word comes from) in every workplace, town etc. Doomed to failure of course in a country as backward as Russia, 90% illiterate, fucking emormous and with no decent transport or communications

The other fundamental difference is economic. The fascists left the ownership of the factories, banks etc in the hands of the same ruling class that owned them before. (Even supplied some, like Philips, with a slave labour force from the concentration camps.)

This is of course exactly the reason that fascism was encouraged by these people in the first place. The communists were growing in strength and the good capitalists of Spain, Germany and Italy needed a populist movement that they could control as a bulwark against them. (Ultimately of course they lost control of them and all the horrors we all know about only too well happened.)

Anyway none of us is a fascist or a mad stalinist so fuck it lets leave it.

Your support of nationalism, and some of the other comments in this thread about "looking after our own first" is a whole other debate. And one I have to admit I've never really got my head around.

Putting aside the whole xenophobia thing, which I can understand. (Frankly even as someone who is oppossed to racism I find I'm more comfortable with those that speak my language, share my cultural background and values. Nowadays those people aren't necessarily white, but they tend to have been brought up here or elsewhere in Europe.)

What I don't get is why I should be expected to care more about the plight of one set of people that I don't know and will probably never meet, than some other set of people that I don't know and will never meet, based simply on the fact that the first set were born on one side of some entirely notional line drawn on a map, an the second set on the other.

The idea that I should owe more loyalty to some workshy dole scrounger from Newbury, or some over-privileged tosser like Charles Windsor than I do to some hardworking plumber from Poland or Belaruse who's over here paying his taxes and fixing my sink, just because we were born a bit nearer to each other makes no fucking sense to me at all.

Put it like this. I know the whole idea of nationhood is an invention. We've allowed ourselves to be divided up into these tribes based on lines on a map, colours on a bit of cloth and, if your lucky (i.e. not English), a stirring song. That's all very well for the purposes of sporting competition, adds a bit of spice,(I'll be bellowing for Wales as loudly as anyone else come Saturday afternoon) but it's not a sensible philosophy for the rest of life.

To say we're British, and hence not like you in Europe is ridiculous when our population and language, even without 20th century immigration, is a mix of:

German - from the Angle and Saxon tribesman who settled here
Latin - from the Romans
Norse - from the Vikings - particularly in N/E dialects and place names
French - from the Norman conquests
Gaelic - from Ireland - the Scots being originally an Irish tribe that invaded and settled northern Britain and got the place named after them - must have really pissed off the Picts - speaking of which,
Picts/Welsh/Cornish - the original "native" Britons with very similar language, now surviving only in Wales and some traces in northern Scottish dialects.

Add to that the fact ALL OF US can trace our ancestory back to one fairly small tribe of Africans about 60,000 years ago. (And when I say all of us, I mean the entire population of the world outside Africa and the African diaspora of the 17th century and on). The  DNA markers are there clear as day in all of us. (There's more genetic diversity, in terms of DNA, in any small African village, where half the place are related to each other, and they all look quite similar, than in the whole of the non-african population of the world with all their physical differences. Weird!)

Fuck! I've gone into one haven't I?

Sorry, everybody, got carried away.

I'll get me coat.

Excellent debate lads. On the subject of Capital punishment,surely if the evidence is beyond doubt ie Peter Sutcliffe,Dennis Neilson,Ian Brady,Ian Huntley then Capital Punishment is an acceptable sentence ? these people have deep mental problems that border on complete insanity and are beyond and IMHO worthiness of rehabilitation,How much does it cost the keep these people each year ? Money that could be spent on the NHS and more worthy causes.
             As for Nick Griffin, i think there is very little doubt that he and his party are racist,They are Thugs in suits. I agree with Control on immigration but he is extreme beyond belief.

ER? I think Hitler, Frano and Mussolini managed that quite well.

Tell me, do you seriously think you'd be allowed to have this sort of forum, and have this sort of debate in a fascist country?

Did you do history at school?

I see your point, but personally I'd let lock the scum up for life.
By life I mean until they die. By lock up I mean full prison treatment with slopping out, bare minimum food, etc.

Unfortunately the PC human rights actavists and legislation doesn't allow this.

Yes i did, i also got an A-Level :D . The fundamental idea of facism doesnt require censorship and killing Jews.  In it's purest form, it's just a series of beliefs and policies that could be beneficial to a country and its inhabitants.  

I agree Adolf and Beni kinda gave it a bad name.

OK, so aside from the racism then you're pretty much into secret police, locking up, "disappearing" and torturing political opponents, abolishing any form of political rights or free speech, political murders, corruption etc. Nice.

And while you may be right that fascism doesn't "require" racism in theory, in practice the two always go together. And that's not just "Adolf and Beni" , that's Franco, Pinochet, the Greek Colonels, the Croatian Ustashe, Milosevic - there hasn't been a fascist regime that isn't racist. And murderous. What do they teach at A-level these days? No wonder the country's going to hell ;-)

Certainly doesn't require the latter. The Italians and Spanish weren't nearly as keen on the racist/ anti-semetic bit as the Nazi's, didn't stop them being fascists.

Does kinda need the former though. Fundamentally fascism IS about dictatorship, see my previous post on page 3. Fascism just does equal totalitarian repression, it's kind of a stated aim to end liberal democratic institutions and replace them with a "strong leader".

......and that's not good!

Erm, ok. I am being shot down with proof and stuff. Time to bail out!

For some reason, i just have this belief that Facism could be implemented to an extent without all the negative points you quite rightly point out. Maybe i'm just fooling myself in my hungover haze.

If you are hungover it might be that you are confusing Facism and Fishing?  The two are distinctly different perspectives on life but can sound a lot like each other after 10 pints.

I'd sooner kill some non-aryans than sit around waiting for some barbel all day in the cold and wet...

I must say I tend to agree.

DB has a point (ducks for cover).

Political systems such as facism and communism are ideals, ideals which have never been followed. There has never, for instance, been a true communist state. In practice these political ideals haven't worked, and in my opinion probably never will. If they were followed very stringently who's to say they would be bad? In my opinion they would be, because I prefer a democratic state and freedom of speech, but who's to say that is right?

Fuck I've gotten all philisophical in my old age  :o

to be honest, like someone mentioned, the political scale is round, and if either policy is extreme enough- they are not very far apart. be it communist, facist or fisherman.
the Bolsheviks proved this. a wholely communist party, that were almost as dreadful as the Nazis to their own people (particularly the kulaks) the difference being, Lenin and his homeboys were ultimately revolutionaries. This meant they could not carry out their aims of opression like the Nazis could, because simply, they didnt know how.

extreme anything is going to lead in an opressive government- right or left

Dex - your just scared cos when griffin gets in his followers will ransack your house and chuck your family out of your new found lanan d.  Back to rice for supper by summer for you.....

Can you play sunday?

Well, no. As lumpimynci pointed out, "Fascism just does equal  totalitarian repression, it's kind of a stated aim to end liberal democratic institutions and replace them with a "strong leader"". So in fascism, the repression, dictatorship etc are not a perversion of the original ideal, they are the ideal. Which, incidentally, doesn't mean that communism is any less oppressive in practice or any more desirable. But to say that Hitler for example was somehow perverting the ideal of fascism is missing the point - Hitler is the ideal of fascism, other than possibly the true idealist fascist might regard as having betrayed the ideal by having been defeated.

I don't want to repeat everything I've already posted but this " the political spectrum is a big circle and the extremes of left and right meet up in the middle" is just way too fucking simplistic. It's a pat response given, sorry to offend anyone, generally by people who haven't read to much about politics or political history.

And it's what those with pretty fucking large interest in the status quo would like, to reduce politics to - a four yearly coice between one bunch pf cunts that don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves, and another bunch who are exactly the same on every fucking point but wear a different coloured badges.

The one basic point I'll stress again is this:

Every fascist government was intended to be a dictatorship from the outset. Adolf, Benito, Franco; strong leaders taking absolute power.

The Bolsheviks on the other hand set out with some rather admirable democratic intents. They wanted a true functioning, participative democracy, that involved everyone having a forum to express their views. But they failed absolutely.

Almost inevitably in a country as backward as Russia in 1917, the state was force to rely on a small group of individuals, drawn from the political leadership and from the old Tsarist regime, bascially because they were the only people that could read. the majority of the population were uneducated peasants, illiteracy rates were over 90%.

Obviously it didn't take long for a power base to develop and solidify these people into a cast of bureaucrats, which then operated to protect their own interests, and soon enough a nasty totalitarianist regime at least as bad as Hitler's.

But there's still a difference.

Good intentions with poor execution leading to tyranny is one thing, setting out to have a one party state and a thousand year empire to rule the world is another.


Incidently - The original bolshevik political theorists Lenin and Trotsky, never expected the 1917 revolution to be successful. It was anticipated that the new workers state would fall pretty quickly, due to the underdeveoped nature of Russia, the comparitive weakness of its industrial working class etc.

The intent was not so much to take power in Russia but too trigger off the revolutions in the more developed Western Europe, which would then be able to help modernise Russia. Which all went a bit pear-shaped when Karl L and Rosa L made a bit of bollock of the German revolution in 1918 and the whole SDLP leadership ended up a bit dead.


Never mind eh.

pauld, I wasn't saying that Hitler perverted the idea of fascism, but it's what his regime did with the power gained from it that was so bad.

My post wasn't an attempt to justify any political system, it was merely a personal philisophical viewpoint on my part. Which is why I said:


My closing point is this: Do you really think that those claiming to be democratic states are that? Do we really have control over the government? Initially, yes, but not afterward.

Basically I was just trying to make a point that political systems tend to be idealistic, but never turn out the way they are intended. After all, we do not live in an ideal world.

Yes I understood that - the point I was making was that in the case of fascism it turned out precisely the way Hitler, Mussolini et al intended - in brutal repression. So this wasn't failed idealism or a bad attempt at fascism gone wrong - that is fascism.

But read lumpimynci's post again - he's said it far better than I can.

i dunno lumpy. what you say is true, but, Lenin wasn't just taking the marxist ideal of an evolving state, instead didnt he tweak it 'marxist leninist'? in doing so the all out democracy you mention was never going to happen, certainly not in Lenin's lifetime.
infact the Bolsheviks opressed and indoctrinated as much, if not more than the Nazis. little octobrists and the like examples of youth movements (similar to the Hitler youth) where kids were shown how to tow the party line from a very early age.
the Cheka probably 'got rid' of more opposers than the Gestapo did in germany, but thats not for certain.
the nomenklatura system meant that only vetted communists could gain jobs of any importance.
all this shows that saying the Bolsheviks wanted a democracy eventually is ludicrous.
because they terminated any form of opposition- therefore there's no way a genuine democracy can take place.
perhaps they wanted a democracy in a hundred years, but that doesnt excuse, nor does it change the fact that the Bolsheviks were as extreme as the Nazis and infact carried out much the same things that they did. despite being the complete opposite side of the scale??
me say circle

holy shit, a discussion on the bnp which has become a thoroughly fascinating debate about politics. i was expecting to read through a few pages of arguing, insults and random bollocks

If this is a debate about fascism, why has nobody mentioned Ronald Reagan?

Sorry, sonic. We let you down. Twats the lot of you! That any better?

Fuck off cuntface  :mrgreen:

Many people have known about the BNP for a long time, and therefore their standing hasn't increased much. This is also shown as many people my age haven't heard of the BNP and therefore don't care about their policies anyway.

because he is dead and his opinion do not count anymore...i find ronald macdonalds views of more importance