You

[Gazza's Fat Mate]

I suggest you all read the following:

1984
brave new world
Hilters book

Then come back to me. But don't worry when I am world ruler life will be better well it will if you fit in and do as i say otherwise...................

[Simon Pieman]

I suggest you all read the following:

1984
brave new world
Hilters book

Then come back to me. But don't worry when I am world ruler life will be better well it will if you fit in and do as i say otherwise...................

Which one?

[BANGKOK RED]

And dont forget the biggest piss take of all, they want us to pay £100-odd quid for the privelidge of having one!

That is having a wooly scarf.

I.D. cards are compulsory for Thai's but even in this third world country the bit of plastic with a photo, name, number and microchip are free.

I am undecided about whether or not I.D. cards are right or wrong myself, I am not particularly bothered if the Gov know what I have been up to as I don't have much to hide, asides from that occassional nights that my nose has been powdered and the odd cash in hand job, yet I hardly think that somebody like myself would be a target for them, and I there is no way that an I.D. card could let them know what I have been up to behind closed doors anyway.

The thing is though that there is a real threat throughout the world of terrorist types, or even just dodgy types in general. And so there is a genuine argument for I.D. cards.

Not only that, I think that we should accept that the technology is there now whereas it was not before. I.D. cards or not in another decade or two "Big brother" could be everywhere whether we like it or not.

[Simon Pieman]

Ok so these home grown terrorists who come from respectable families and careers, how are they going to get picked up through an ID card scheme? I find the idea fanciful.

[mexico red]

i have read them whats your point? i would recommend the communist manifesto, theres a lot of good shit in that and russel brands biography.

[Fred Elliot]

i have read them whats your point? i would recommend the communist manifesto, theres a lot of good shit in that and russel brands biography.

     

[Lumps]

Am I the only one slightly depressed by the level of ideological debate that this thread has given rise to?

Communism has failed apparently. Really?

So somewhere a workers state was established that sustained itself for a long enough period for the principles of collective responsibility, ownership and control of the machinery of the production, distribution and exchange to become the natural order of things, meaning that the need for a state of any kind disappeared and it eventually "gradually withered away". And then that new communist society somehow failed? That actually happened did it?

Where was that because I must have missed it?

Odd that it happened at all because I was sure that all the leading theorists of communism were fairly clear that it would only be possible on an international basis, and if I'd lived in a workers state (let alone in a communist society) for even the shortest period of time I'm pretty sure I'd have noticed!

Putting aside the Mr Sarcastic bit for a second, what I'm trying to say is that most of you, with a few obvious exceptions, are debating an issue that you have only the sketchiest of knowledge about.

Is communism a good or a bad thing? Well I'd suggest it would be a good idea to find out what it is before you attempt to express an opinion on the matter.

Looking at the totalitarian state that the USSR became and assuming that it (or China or Cuba for that matter) defines communism would be a bit of a mistake. Explaining why would take a bloody long time and require a grasp of late 19th and early 20th centrury social and economic history, which I'm not about to deliver a lecture on here.

Mex is right, try reading some books. The manifesto is a good place to start. But I've always had a soft spot for "Origins of the family, private property and the state" as good old Fred Engels is suprisingly readadable when he's not weighted down with the more leaden prose of his mate Karl. It gives a decent introduction to the principles of dialectical and historical materialism, which is the philosphcal basis of Marxism and hence communism.

It also blows out of the water the much repeated (including by GFM at the begininning of this thread) idea in real terms "nothing ever changes".

As a bit of a dialectical materialist myself could I just point out that actually everything changes........ constantly......... in a whole load of ways. Even things that are seemingly solid and permanent are in a constant state of flux.

That chair you're sitting on is fractionally different to how it was yesterday. Your arse has rubbed at the seat and worn it away slightly, just like it did yesterday and the day before. That's a quantative change wearing away little by little every day. But, eventually, those quantative changes add up to a qualitative change and that seat cover will wear through altogether.

As for society it certainly has not always been structured in the way it is now, with a ruling class that own virtually everything and the rest of us having to work for them to make a living. Capitalism is at best 400 years old a tiny fraction of the history of mankind, even in Britain which had the earliest rise to power of the capitalist class. Before that we had a feudal society and before that .............

Well read the book for yourself but for now just know that man lived in tribal primitive communist societies with no concept of class or private property for a damn site longer than he's lived in anything like the way we do now.

Right I'm done now. I feel strangely purged!

[Bushey Boy]

I love it when Lumps goes into one doing a long post.

[herthab]

Fair comment Lumps, but it's fair to say that The USSR, China and Cuba are/were perceived as Communist (When in reality they're Socialist)

Communism, as an idea, is laudable but would never work, imho.

It fails due to human nature, greed, envy, etc, etc.

All methods of government must have their good points, or else they'd never have happened, I just feel that democracy is better than the alternatives.

Just my uneducated ramblings on this thread..........................

[jayohaitchenn]

Is anyone actually under the delusion that we live in a democracy? I don't recall voting to increase MP's pay (AGAIN!), making their expenses part of the Official Secrets Act, referendum on the EU etc etc etc.

[Colin Todd]

To sum up Lumpys post for those who got bored after the 1st sentance



blah blah blah blah

I'm gert more cleverer than you

blah blah blah blah

The end.

 

[mexico red]

thanks lumps, you pretty much posted what i was thinking but couldnt be arsed.

greed and envy in my opinon are products of capitalism and the power of socialisation,they would not exist in a communist utopia.

[reeves4england]

thanks lumps, you pretty much posted what i was thinking but couldnt be arsed.

greed and envy in my opinon are products of capitalism and the power of socialisation,they would not exist in a communist utopia.

But it would be impossible to transform any capitalist country into a 'communist utopia'. In fact, it wouldn't work anywhere. People take advantage and break rules to the detriment of others and that's always going to happen no matter what they system.

 

[Gazza's Fat Mate]

hold hold on I am only a month into my open uni course on Polictis. I'll come back to you in a year mr lumps.